2018 Baseball Hall of Fame

[bpo57]

Then Arias should’ve been playin right all those games like Vlad was.

And no wonder he had good postseason stats, he was on steroids yet sitting on his arse all but 4x a game for about total of 15 minutes max.

No HOF

When Vlad played in an AL park he DH'd more than 35% of the time during his career. Does that diminish his credentials?

 

[Alsacs]

No, it was solely because of the PED rumours.

Bacne rumors were why Piazza waited.
He should have been a first ballot guy. With his offense.

It’s why Ortiz is going to wait a couple years but will get in.

 

[bpo57]

No, it was solely because of the PED rumours.

lol how would you know that?

 

[jncuse]

So you're comparing Ortiz situation to those other four guys who've either admitted it or there is a mountain of evidence against them when no such evidence exists against Ortiz. Nice.

David Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003. Just because the test could not result in penalties at the time, and the results were supposed to be confidential. does not mean he did not fail. I am not sure why Red Sox fans want to ignore this.

Bonds/Clemens/McGwire never failed any official tests either. They also played in an era where using steroids was not against MLB rules for a good portion of their career. To claim Ortiz should get in on the first ballot and not the others, because he was never penalized or cheated less makes no sense.

He has to wait like all the others that got caught or were suspected.

 

[br801]

I'd put a finer point on that. He frequently did not execute the throwing part well at any time during his career. You can't make that many errors and say otherwise. Fundamentals matter.

As a stolen base threat he had two big years. Like I said he was briefly a serious threat to steal a bag.

The "running" tool is about more than stolen bases. I would expect you know that.

 

[bpo57]

David Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003. Just because the test could not result in penalties at the time, and were supposed to be confidential. does not mean he did not fail. I am not sure why Red Sox fans want to ignore this.

Bonds/Clemens/McGwire never failed any official tests either. To claim Ortiz should get in on the first ballot and not the others, because he didn't cheat or cheated less, just does not make any sense. He has to wait like all the others that got caught or were suspected.

How do you know Vlad didn't use PEDs?

 

[Alsacs]

David Ortiz failed a drug test in 2003. Just because the test could not result in penalties at the time, and were supposed to be confidential. does not mean he did not fail. I am not sure why Red Sox fans want to ignore this.

Bonds/Clemens/McGwire never failed any official tests either. To claim Ortiz should get in on the first ballot and not the others, because he didn't cheat or cheated less, just does not make any sense. He has to wait like all the others that got caught or were suspected.

You have no idea why he failed a drug test.
It didn’t have to be PEDs.
Again people assume it was PEDs but those tests didn’t include what the failure was for.
Players didn’t take them strategically to trigger mandatory testing.
While I am not saying for certain this is why Ortiz failed you can’t or nobody can say the other thing.

That 2003 test isn’t keeping him out.
Kaiser would give Pettitte a pass.

Ortiz is getting in.

 

[jncuse]

How do you know Vlad didn't use PEDs?

He may very well have. Which is why i think all steroid users should get in the Hall

But those that actually were documented as failing a test can't be first ballot.

 

[bpo57]

The "running" tool is about more than stolen bases. I would expect you know that.

Check with jncuse. He says Vlad was an erratic base runner.

 

[jncuse]

You have no idea why he failed a drug test.
It didn’t have to be PEDs.
Again people assume it was PEDs but those tests didn’t include what the failure was for.
Players didn’t take them strategically to trigger mandatory testing.
While I am not saying for certain this is why Ortiz failed you can’t or nobody can say the other thing.

That 2003 test isn’t keeping him out.
Kaiser would give Pettitte a pass.

Ortiz is getting in.

True. But in that era a reasonable assumption could be made. That is what the majority of HOF Voting has been with this era, assumptions good or bad. Some that probably used, have been cleared as never using either.

It is why I support all players to get in, but support judgments being made on a player being a first ballot.

The threshold for first ballot is also quite high.

 

[br801]

This is from a few years back and doesn't include guys like Trout and Harper, and I don't necessarily agree with a lot of their choices, but it's interesting to see who came in at #12.

Top 20 Best 5-Tool Players in Baseball History

 

[bpo57]

This is from a few years back and doesn't include guys like Trout and Harper, and I don't necessarily agree with a lot of their choices, but it's interesting to see who came in at #12.

Top 20 Best 5-Tool Players in Baseball History

Seems like Langford wasn't all that impressed with his defense either. From the middle of his career on he had mediocre range and was a throwing error machine. How was that a good thing?

 

[bpo57]

I wasn't talking about his defense. But since you brought it up, he wasn't very good at throwing out base stealers, but was a sound catcher in other respects.

Piazza was consistently near the very top of the league in passed balls and errors and was #1 nearly every single year for a decade in stolen bases allowed. He was not a good defensive catcher. Period.

 

[bpo57]

Please elaborate.

Ortiz had almost 100 more HRs than Bagwell and approx. 250 more RBIs. Bagwell played in 33 postseason games and hit .226 with two dingers. Ortiz on the other hand...

 

[br801]

Ortiz had almost 100 more HRs than Bagwell and approx. 250 more RBIs. Bagwell played in 33 postseason games and hit .226 with two dingers. Ortiz on the other hand...

Look at their per 162 game numbers. Bagwell was probably the superior hitter and I know he was the superior first baseman. He just had the misfortune of playing in Houston.

 

[Alsacs]

Bagwell 162 average
.297, 34 HR, 115 RBI, 15 SB.
Pretty damn good.
Ortiz 162 average
.286, 36 HR, 119 RBI.

Ortiz postseason destroys Bagwell’s.
The guy was a good first basemen till late in his career.
I think Bagwell is an obvious HOFer.
Ortiz is as well.

 

[br801]

Bagwell 162 average
.297, 34 HR, 115 RBI, 15 SB.
Pretty damn good.
Ortiz 162 average
.286, 36 HR, 119 RBI.

Ortiz postseason destroys Bagwell’s.
The guy was a good first basemen till late in his career.
I think Bagwell is an obvious HOFer.
Ortiz is as well.

Yes, Bagwell was at least as good a hitter as Ortiz in the regular season.

Bagwell .297/.408/.540, OPS+ 149
Ortiz .286/.380/.552, OPS+ 141

 

[OrangeDW]

This is from a few years back and doesn't include guys like Trout and Harper, and I don't necessarily agree with a lot of their choices, but it's interesting to see who came in at #12.

Top 20 Best 5-Tool Players in Baseball History

Interesting list. I might be biased due to how often I watched him play as a Dodgers fan, but I think Raul Mondesi is deserving of honorable mention at least. Not a hall of famer and maybe an underachiever(though he was still very good in his prime), but he had all the tools. He won a couple gold gloves, was a 30-30 guy a few times, and probably had the best outfield arm in the game before Vlad showed up. He also was a .300 or near it hitter earlier in his career. He fell off as his career went on but his first 5-6 seasons or so he could do it all.

 

[bpo57]

Look at their per 162 game numbers. Bagwell was probably the superior hitter and I know he was the superior first baseman. He just had the misfortune of playing in Houston.

It's kind of amusing how when you do these comparisons you never acknowledge the postseason. It's like it never happened. Don't you think the legacies of guys like Jeter and Reggie Jackson are built in part upon their postseason success?

There is no possible way Boston would have won championships without Ortiz in 2004 or 2013. You could conceive of it in 2007 but even there he made big contributions. If a player is that instrumental in his team winning championships doesn't that count for something?

 

[bpo57]

Look at their per 162 game numbers. Bagwell was probably the superior hitter and I know he was the superior first baseman. He just had the misfortune of playing in Houston.

And Ortiz had the misfortune of being buried in Minnesota for a half dozen years. If he had gotten more PT there his #s would have been even more impressive.

 

[br801]

And Ortiz had the misfortune of being buried in Minnesota for a half dozen years. If he had gotten more PT there his #s would have been even more impressive.

Apparently he couldn't find the magic elixir in Minnesota.

 

[bpo57]

Apparently he couldn't find the magic elixir in Minnesota.

Nah he just wasn't as quotable or likable back then.

 

[br801]

It's kind of amusing how when you do these comparisons you never acknowledge the postseason. It's like it never happened. Don't you think the legacies of guys like Jeter and Reggie Jackson are built in part upon their postseason success?

There is no possible way Boston would have won championships without Ortiz in 2004 or 2013. You could conceive of it in 2007 but even there he made big contributions. If a player is that instrumental in his team winning championships doesn't that count for something?

It's amusing that you continually ignore Bagwell's regular season body of work and how it compares statistically to Ortiz's. But it's not hard to figure out why.

 

[bpo57]

No, it was solely because of the PED rumours.

Reflecting on this statement I have to laugh. Piazza was clearly one of the weakest defensive catchers of his time. To say that his delayed induction had nothing to do with his defense is foolish, particularly when there is no concrete evidence he took PEDs.

 

[bpo57]

It's amusing that you continually ignore Bagwell's regular season body of work and how it compares statistically to Ortiz's. But it's not hard to figure out why.

We've established that their regular season stats are very close. Yet you don't seem to want to talk about the postseason #s. Not hard to figure out why.