2022 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

[Day2]

I saw him a ton.. his last 10 yrs he was just a nice player and didnt play more than 130 games. so basically his career was defined before he was 30.
he hit over 300 three times
he hit 30 HRs three times..

He had a good number of 100 RBI yrs.

He had 1 real MVP type yr.

GGs are his one atttribute to hang his hat on.

Whose your team and where do you live that you saw him a “ton”?

 

[Alsacs]

;,g

Whose your team and where do you live that you saw him a “ton”?

i saw him play the Blue Jays plenty.
Never felt he was the best player on those teams.
I didn’t follow him on the Reds.

I saw him plenry with Phillies and Cardinals.
Good player I just never felt he was a HOFer.

Cards were a Pujols/Molina team.

His glove was by far his best asset. I don’t see his offenss close to HOFer.
I followed his whole career as I know he started when Nomar did.
They were both ROYs the same year.

 

[donniesyracuse]

I trust my own eyes more than WAR. It's too bad that you don't trust your own eyes as well.

Humans are too prone to selective perception. I’ll always trust objectivity more than subjectivity. I recognize that objective data does not tell the whole story either.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Whitey???

A gripping saga: 11 tales of pitchers using spitters, sandpaper and scuffing | Sports Illustrated

 

[bpo57]

In 2002 the Phillies traded Scott Rolen and a ML pitcher to the Cardinals for Placido Polanco, Bud Smith and Mike Timlin.

In 2008 The Cardinals traded Rolen to the Blue Jays for Troy Glaus.

Neither the Phillies nor Cardinals got back the kind of consideration one would expect for a HoF player. Maybe they didn't use WAR metrics back then.

 

[Day2]

;,g

i saw him play the Blue Jays plenty.
Never felt he was the best player on those teams.
I didn’t follow him on the Reds.

I saw him plenry with Phillies and Cardinals.
Good player I just never felt he was a HOFer.

Cards were a Pujols/Molina team.

His glove was by far his best asset. I don’t see his offenss close to HOFer.
I followed his whole career as I know he started when Nomar did.
They were both ROYs the same year.

He was in Toronto for a season and a half.

The Cards were a Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds team back then. Molina was just starting his career.

All four should be in the HOF, BTW.

 

[bpo57]

Humans are too prone to selective perception. I’ll always trust objectivity more than subjectivity. I recognize that objective data does not tell the whole story either.

Humans also devise all of these statistical metrics. You know the saying - garbage in, garbage out.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Humans also devise all of these statistical metrics. You know the saying - garbage in, garbage out.

Got it. WAR is nonsense.

 

[bpo57]

Got it. WAR is nonsense.

Not saying that. I'm sure it has its value. But not that useful that it can explain away massive statistical differences (225 more HRs and 500 more RBI) or postseason dominance.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Why?

Go look at Edgar Martinez career value stats .. he’s better than Ortiz .. he also actually played a position for a few years .., he got in on his last opportunity .. he wasn’t named in the Mitchell report .. so how is Ortiz on the 1st ballot and Martinez the tenth ?

 

[Day2]

Got it. WAR is nonsense.

 

[Alsacs]

Go look at Edgar Martinez career rate and value stats .. he’s better on both than Ortiz .. he also actually played a position for a few years .., he got in on his last opportunity .. he wasn’t named in the Mitchell report .. so how is Ortiz on the 1st ballot and Martinez the tenth ?

Ortiz postseason makes a huge portion of case.

Also Ortiz hit over 500 HRs.
Martinez was a better hitter for average.

Ortiz postseason numbers and how he was nice to the media propelled him.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Not saying that.

You literally did say that above.

 

[bpo57]

Go look at Edgar Martinez career value stats .. he’s better than Ortiz .. he also actually played a position for a few years .., he got in on his last opportunity .. he wasn’t named in the Mitchell report .. so how is Ortiz on the 1st ballot and Martinez the tenth ?

I thought Edgar was a great player and should not have had to wait as long as he did. He was pretty much a DH, which is not a big deal to me. Ortiz played nearly 300 games in the field himself. Tough to breeze past the huge difference in RBIs (~500) and HRs (~230) between the two. Not to mention the huge difference in postseason success and championships.

MLB says the Mitchell report was inconclusive. There were false positives mixed in with ingredients that were legal and illegal. it's tough to explain how a guy could get tested so frequently for over a decade and still bang out 35-40 dingers in his late 30s. Btw how do we know Martinez didn't use roids? - He played in the height of that era before testing was amped up.

 

[bpo57]

You literally did say that above.

You took me literally. I was using an expression to make a point. To be clear I do not think WAR is garbage . But I wonder if you have such slavish devotion to other metrics like QBR, KenPom, PFF ratings etc.?

 

[donniesyracuse]

But I wonder do you have such slavish devotion to other metrics like QBR, KenPom, PFF ratings etc.?

I would make sure I understand how they are calculated before pledging slavish devotion. Other sports don’t have the gigantic sample sizes that baseball provides, which leaves more room for error. Generally speaking though, I prefer computer rankings to the AP or Coaches polls.

 

[bpo57]

I would make sure I understand how they are calculated before pledging slavish devotion. Other sports don’t have the gigantic sample sizes that baseball provides, which leaves more room for error. Generally speaking though, I prefer computer rankings to the AP or Coaches polls.

I used to find the RPI ratings for hoops to be off the charts stoopid. Thankfully they seem to have de-emphasized them. That was classic garbage in, garbage out

My last point on Ortiz/Rolen - it's puzzling that folks want to cite various metrics when some of the most obvious ones such as HRs, RBIs and championships are so clearly in Ortiz' favor. How can those not matter?

 

[donniesyracuse]

My last point on Ortiz/Rolen - it's puzzling that folks want to cite various metrics when some of the most obvious ones such as HRs, RBIs and championships are so clearly in Ortiz' favor. How can those not matter?

Offensive performance is part of the formula. It’s why Ortiz’s WAR is as high as it is.

 

[cuseattle]

This HOF stuff brings out strong opinions and I enjoyed the last couple pages.
A couple comments without quoting anyone.

I am not fond of the word compiler as a derogatory term. In order to have higher totals in statistical categories, the player has to have a longer career with more games played. That seems like a good thing to me. Players have been playing 2 or 3 years too long since at least the early 70s to get 300 wins or 3000 hits.
With regard to those who tested positive for steroids and banned substances, I'm glad they have had to wait. Expect most to get in in 15-20 years. That seems fair, but I do hope they all live to see induction.
The best defensive players don't get enough respect imo in the voting. Unless they're flashy.

 

[upperdeck]

Whose your team and where do you live that you saw him a “ton”?

Mets. but I watched a ton of baseball on top of that.

 

[Day2]

Mets. but I watched a ton of baseball on top of that.

If you say so. You said he was a “nice” player for the last 10 years of his career. I find that interesting, given he retired in 2012. So you’re basically overlooking his entire time with the Cardinals.

 

[Alsacs]

If you say so. You said he was a “nice” player for the last 10 years of his career. I find that interesting, given he retired in 2012. So you’re basically overlooking his entire time with the Cardinals.

Edmonds and Rolen basically have the same resume.

I don’t see Edmunds this close to the HOF.

CF vs. 3b doesn’t make Rolen a HOFer.

 

[upperdeck]

If you say so. You said he was a “nice” player for the last 10 years of his career. I find that interesting, given he retired in 2012. So you’re basically overlooking his entire time with the Cardinals.

no he had the 2 really good years and one more later.. his last 10 years starting at 30 he was a 10HR/50RBI guy.. he had one more good yr at 31 then he the one yr with the reds he played most of a season and popped 20 HRs. Even his peak yrs he was a 25 hr/90 RBI guy. Some of that was he played so few game so many seasons.

he played almost 20 yrs and avg 18/71..

Now if people value the D more that elevates him but GGs are inflated. If you get one you tend to get more and others never get on at all.

 

[Day2]

Edmonds and Rolen basically have the same resume.

I don’t see Edmunds this close to the HOF.

CF vs. 3b doesn’t make Rolen a HOFer.

Rolen’s career WAR is the 9th best all-time for 3B and over 10 points higher than the average WAR for HOF 3B.

Edmonds belongs in the HOF. He has the toughest road to get there among the Cardinals I mentioned. One of the best defensive CF ever and he was an outstanding hitter in STL, playing in a pitcher’s park.

 

[Day2]

no he had the 2 really good years and one more later.. his last 10 years starting at 30 he was a 10HR/50RBI guy.. he had one more good yr at 31 then he the one yr with the reds he played most of a season and popped 20 HRs. Even his peak yrs he was a 25 hr/90 RBI guy. Some of that was he played so few game so many seasons.

he played almost 20 yrs and avg 18/71..

Now if people value the D more that elevates him but GGs are inflated. If you get one you tend to get more and others never get on at all.

Look, math is hard. I don’t believe you saw him play much at all.