While I agree Musah is not great at unlocking a packed D... he's better at it than Adams or McKinnie. Adams just doesn't have that pass or dribble in him and McKinnie has one off moments of brilliance, but generally he's heads down and runs himself into corners or traps of 2/3 players and turns the ball over. If I had to pick a backup to Reyna, it's Musah... again not ideal. Berhalter needs to find someone who can properly backup Reyna and actually give them a shot, or change his formation.
2023 USMNT
- Thread starter SUfanNC
- Start date
Forza Azzurri
All American
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2011
- Messages
- 4,493
- Like
- 9,048
He actually called all those people in during qualifying, not just for meaningless friendlies. Every single qualifying game, with the exception of the last one (I think we had guaranteed ourselves qualification going into the last game?) was a pressure-filled game. So he really did build a framework.
I just don't think the second midfield was nearly as good as MMA. Aronson was first man off the bench and I think there is a pretty big gap between Musah\McKennie and him. Your other choices were De La Torre and Roldan for Musah\MKennie and Acosta for Adams. I think you can "tactic" all you want and none of those guys is close to the starters.
Here you are going to have to provide examples to back up this assertion. Who are you talking about, specifically, and how would those players have fared better under a different "tactical framework" (you will also need to define tactical framework as I don't know what that means) and what would that "tactical framework" have been that would have allowed players 12-22 to perform as well as the starting 11?
I am all ears for this because, as I state above, I think our backup midfielders are several notches below the starters.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
Coming out of the Nations League, you'd have to say that we have the following primary rotation guys (more or less):
Attack: Pulisic, Weah, Balogan, Pepi, Aaronson. That kid Cade Cowell seems like he might crack the rotation soon. I hope he gets to play at the Gold Cup. I'd like to see how he does against senior players.
Midfield: Adams, McKennie, Reyna, Musah, de la Torre
I think having a core 5 man rotation for 3 spots is probably about right for who we rely on going forward. That seems like about enough depth. After those first five or six guys, though, there is clearly a drop off, both in attack and in midfield.
Central Defenders: M. Robinson, Zimmerman, Ream, C. Richards, M. McKenzie, Carter-Vickers, Aaron Long. We seem pretty deep here. It's more a matter of settling on the preferred 4 out of these 7, and then getting them enough time together.
Backs / Wingbacks: A. Robinson, Dest, Scally, Yedlin ?, Shaq Moore ?
(A couple guys will hopefully step up at the Gold Cup.). We seem a bit shallow here.
Looking like a pretty dangerous team taking shape, if we can add some depth at the fullback position.
Last edited:
Orangezoo
In the wind
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 39,743
- Like
- 91,951
Great stuff IM. Lots of great points. As we have all been very critical of Greg - one thing I do think is fair to point out is that when Pepi was in form we looked very dangerous more like we did the last two matches and outside in form Pepi he has never had anything like Balogun out front.
His challenge tactically has been getting goal production and he's moved the attack pieces around and tried several options doing so. I think leaving Pepi home for Qatar showed to be a bad move as did whatever was going on with Reyna. The growth of the young guys along with the huge addition of Balogun and the possibilities with Reyna at the 10 makes this such a different team that may show in how he no longer has the head scratching adjustments. BJ needs to be a top assistant too hands down.
Last but not least I can't overstate how much Turner has improved as a leader in the back. The time at Arsenal, even with only getting 7 starts has done wonders( which i can attest to given i watch every Gunners match
) . A huge issue at times last cycle was awful clearances, indecision with the ball at his feet and poor goal kicks. All of that has been cleaned up and he has a command back there like Timmy did. Not to mention his shot stopping is top quality and deserving of being an everyday starter somewhere in Europe.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
Great stuff IM. Lots of great points. As we have all been very critical of Greg - one thing I do think is fair to point out is that when Pepi was in form we looked very dangerous more like we did the last two matches and outside in form Pepi he has never had anything like Balogun out front.
His challenge tactically has been getting goal production and he's moved the attack pieces around and tried several options doing so. I think leaving Pepi home for Qatar showed to be a bad move as did whatever was going on with Reyna. The growth of the young guys along with the huge addition of Balogun and the possibilities with Reyna at the 10 makes this such a different team that may show in how he no longer has the head scratching adjustments. BJ needs to be a top assistant too hands down.
Last but not least I can't overstate how much Turner has improved as a leader in the back. The time at Arsenal, even with only getting 7 starts has done wonders( which i can attest to given i watch every Gunners match
One last thing I'll remind everyone about Reyna - he was hurt most of the last 2 years, and when he finally did get a run with the 1st team USMNT, he got hurt again in that September game right before the World Cup.
So, for Berhalter to tell him, "I'll put you on the team, but I'm counting on you as a sub" shouldn't have been the end of the world for Reyna.
We all see that he can really play. Most people already knew that about him. But he's missed games through injuries 5 different times in EACH in the last 2 seasons (in his worst stretch missing 16 games), and has missed a total of something like 45 games in the last 3 or 4 seasons, total.
You can't count on a guy like that. Reyna is a terrific talent, but he didn't even make it through 2 full games in the Nations League before hurting himself again.
jordville
Hall of Fame
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2013
- Messages
- 9,573
- Like
- 23,957
Excellent points. Talented player. But one that is not always available. Need him in bubble wrap when on the pitch. I kid.. kind of.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
I agree with this, Forza. de la Torre, Acosta, the new dual-national kids they recruited away from Mexico - I don't see any top talent among those guys; at least not yet.
It seems to me we have 4 very good, World Cup quality guys right now in our midfield - Musah, McKennie, Adams and Reyna. I think in a tournament setting, you rotate the 4 guys through your 3 group stage games to try to keep them fresh, and then go with the hot hand in your knock-out rounds.
A couple twists, tactically, that might be interesting:
(1) If MMA and Reyna are all fit, they could fit in a 4 man midfield if Berhalter chose to try a 3-4-3. Use Adams and Musah as the deeper lying guys with McKennie and Reyna getting forward. McKennie and Musah can take turns pushing forward, with the other guy covering for them. In a 3-4-3, I'd have A. Robinson on the left of the back 3, with Miles Robinson, and then a very solid guy like Ream or Zimmerman in the middle, as the other nominal center backs. The attack could remain Pulisic / Balogun or Pepi / Weah.
(2) The other alternative to get all 4 of your midfielders in the game would be a 4-2-3-1. Again, use Adams and Musah as the defensive mids; Dest and A. Robinson at the fullbacks, and still have Pulisic on the left, Reyna at the 10, and Weah on the right with Balogun / Pepi as the striker.
I think that in future knockout games, a 4-2-3-1 may be our best tactical set-up, because it gives us a lot of guys in midfield, and it still gives us proper cover for our defense.
Last edited:
Forza Azzurri
All American
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2011
- Messages
- 4,493
- Like
- 9,048
If healthy, and that has consistently been a big IF with Reyna, I agree with this. Unfortunately, it appears that our most fragile player is also our most unique player. None of the other three can fill that role. Maybe a De La Torre, a Senora, a Luna or even a Zendejas (is he just an out and out winger?) could fill his shoes at some point. That has to be the hope.
Interesting thoughts, Matty.
Typically a three man backline will use three centerbacks although there is no reason why you could not slot in a left or right back as the third CB. I think the bigger issue with this formation, as you have laid it out, is that it takes Dest off the field.
To me, the 4-2-3-1 is just a 4-3-3 with a defensive trident. I think either one works.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
On the Reyna alternatives, Forza, I'm hopeful that maybe another top quality guy or two emerges in the next year.
As for the alternative tactical formations, one way you lose Dest (or A. Robinson), or one way you maybe lose McKennie or Musah.
I've seen some of the Premier League sides adapt their 3 at the back defense by having a fullback on the side where most of the opponent's attack is expected to come from; then the least mobile, but strongest in the air CB in the middle of the back 3, and on the other ("weak") side, you use another traditional centerback, but the more mobile of the two.
As for 4-2-3-1 vs. 4-3-3, I agree; it comes down to what shape you're in when you're in possession, versus how you drop back when the other side has the ball. Chelsea played a hybrid of these 2 formations for years.
I think that a "pure" 4-3-3 requires a single anchor to be exceptional, or else the wingers can find themselves disconnected from the midfield. In the 4-2-3-1, to me, your "bottom of the trident" is better defined in terms of the guys' roles. Then, I think you have to pull your wingers back closer to midfield to avoid being overrun on loose balls / 2nd balls. So that's why I like the 4-2-3-1.
As for the alternative tactical formations, one way you lose Dest (or A. Robinson), or one way you maybe lose McKennie or Musah.
I've seen some of the Premier League sides adapt their 3 at the back defense by having a fullback on the side where most of the opponent's attack is expected to come from; then the least mobile, but strongest in the air CB in the middle of the back 3, and on the other ("weak") side, you use another traditional centerback, but the more mobile of the two.
As for 4-2-3-1 vs. 4-3-3, I agree; it comes down to what shape you're in when you're in possession, versus how you drop back when the other side has the ball. Chelsea played a hybrid of these 2 formations for years.
I think that a "pure" 4-3-3 requires a single anchor to be exceptional, or else the wingers can find themselves disconnected from the midfield. In the 4-2-3-1, to me, your "bottom of the trident" is better defined in terms of the guys' roles. Then, I think you have to pull your wingers back closer to midfield to avoid being overrun on loose balls / 2nd balls. So that's why I like the 4-2-3-1.
And Jamaica scores first… this game underscores extreme the drop off between the a team and this b/c team. Zero control of the midfield, slow attacking buildup, poor touch/control. It really is like watching an mls team vs a highly skilled euro team.
Orangezoo
In the wind
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 39,743
- Like
- 91,951
It's rough. Not to mention this group has had maybe what 3 practices together? Still just brutal.
Yep… there is some talent on the squad. Not sure why the coaches continuously start the usual retreads. But I will say that Zendejas and Sonora got their shots and were pretty poor in midfield. Sands was pretty blah as well… not sure he is athletic enough. Canada wanted Aidan Morris in a big way… he grew into the game but need to see a lot more from him.
Cowell clearly has talent but he also made a few unforced errors. Roldan and Mihalovic changed the game. Vazquez is more dangerous than Ferrera.
Need to start the best players not the same old.
Orangezoo
In the wind
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 39,743
- Like
- 91,951
I still like Ferreira overall. Agree on Morris. Tolkin was alright as well and improved as game went along.
Cowell did much more good than bad and for 19 yrs old- really nice start. Should have had an assist.
Want to see the youngsters again and see how they settle in too.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
Actually, other than Miazga failing to hold the line on that corner where we gave up the goal, I thought that these 4 were among our best performers tonight.
I think the biggest tactical mistake was starting two inexperienced guys at holding midfielder - Sands and Austin Morris. Morris was the worse of the two, but neither were very good. You noticed that when Roldan came on around 60 minutes, we suddenly had a lot more presence in midfield.
This was the type of game - against the best opponent in the group - where you need a guy like Kellyn Acosta or Christian (edit) Roldan (Carmelo Roldan was an IT guy who used to work for me ...) to give some solidity to your midfield. These 2 young guys just failed their big audition, but it's mostly BJ Callaghan's fault with the lineup call.
Among the other guys, Tolkin stuck his boot in a lot and was around the ball but he didn't have much of a game; mostly played safe balls backwards, or tried "down the line" balls for Jordan Morris that went out of play more often than not.
Morris was sort of dangerous, had that one great chance, but he's a B League kind of player. He's not going to help you in a World Cup, but he can in a tournament like this, or World Cup qualifying.
Among the dual national recruits, I thought Zendejas had some nice combination play on the right side of the offense. Sonora didn't do much to impress. Both were replaced.
Djorde M. was ok in midfield, but is not as much of a creator as that kid Cade Cowell, who looked pretty good, pretty dangerous in the last 3rd.
Clutch moment for Turner to save Leon Bailey's (weak-ass) penalty attempt. Nearly made a hash of it by pushing his save right in front of goal, where Bailey missed a gaping goal with his weaker foot.
Good thing Vazquez smashed home that late equalizer, or we would have been looking at needing at least 4 and maybe 6 points from these last 2 games against the minnows of the group.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
Jamaica DID start 4 guys up front who all scored multiple goals in the Premier League last season. They are legit dangerous. They have some big guys in defense, too, and a terrific goal keeper.
IthacaMatt
Old Timer / Unofficial Contributor for 25+ years
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 23,538
- Like
- 34,336
There were maybe 5 good guys in the starting lineup. Too many youngsters started who maybe should have seen their first action in the next 2 games.
I would have definitely played Roldan (is Acosta on the roster?) as a holding mid in place of either Sands or A. Morris.
I also would have used Busio in place of one of the Mexican kids (Sonora, particularly, but you could make a case for starting either, but not both) for this opening game.
cusefan88
All American
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2012
- Messages
- 6,156
- Like
- 15,850
We'll see how GGG handles Copa 2024. When it comes to the "A" Team, even if it's bench spots, I better not see Jordan Morris. He's the equivalent of an NFL player who's still in the league because he was a first-round pick. He's an average player and peaked 4-5 years ago.
I don't have an issue with MLS guys in the team but it feels like 'favorites' vs guys who are actually in-form and good performers.
I don't have an issue with MLS guys in the team but it feels like 'favorites' vs guys who are actually in-form and good performers.
Orangezoo
In the wind
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 39,743
- Like
- 91,951
We need to see if Busio can get there or not. Was hoping we would see him last night. I don't believe Acosta is on the roster unless I misread.
I’m curious what you see in Busio… he didn’t do much with the ball besides circulate it to the wings or backwards and he was too skinny to really get a foot in defensively. He also got benched in Italy.
I’m willing to give zendejas another shot… he did do some good things.
Orangezoo
In the wind
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2011
- Messages
- 39,743
- Like
- 91,951
With Busio it's either show something or we move on. It's not so much what I see in him as what he is as a player and whether there is something there. If not let's move on.
