And then there were two, the Cavs and Warriors

[longislandcuse]

Kyrie-JR-Shump-Thompson-Mozgov-Dellavedova-Jones......Miller-Perkins

vs

Livingston-Klay-Green-Barnes-Bogut-Iguodala-Barbosa-Ezeli......Speights-Lee

So take away Lebron and Curry and is the Warriors roster THAT much better than the Cavs? I'm struggling to understand where this narrative has come from as it's repeated over and over again. The Warriors roster is not light years better than the Cavs, despite what the media's narrative would have you believe.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Kyrie-JR-Shump-Thompson-Mozgov-Dellavedova-Jones...Miller-Perkins

vs

Livingston-Klay-Green-Barnes-Bogut-Iguodala-Barbosa-Ezeli...Speights-Lee

So take away Lebron and Curry and is the Warriors roster THAT much better than the Cavs? I'm struggling to understand where this narrative has come from as it's repeated over and over again. The Warriors roster is not light years better than the Cavs, despite what the media's narrative would have you believe.

It's a lot better. Perkins, Miller,Jones, and Delly do not see the court for Golden State against any of those guys below. The top 6 for Cleveland is probably almost good as the top 6 for Golden State, save I'd rather have Green than thompson, but on the bench it isn't even close. Jones, Miller, and Perkins are basically washed up versions of their former self. Barbosa, Ezeli, Lee/Speights, Livingston, and Iggy is a lot better than Delly, Jones, Shumpert, Miller, and Perkins.

 

[longislandcuse]

It's a lot better. Perkins, Miller,Jones, and Delly do not see the court for Golden State against any of those guys below. The top 6 for Cleveland is probably almost good as the top 6 for Golden State, save I'd rather have Green than thompson, but on the bench it isn't even close. Jones, Miller, and Perkins are basically washed up versions of their former self. Barbosa, Ezeli, Lee/Speights, Livingston, and Iggy is a lot better than Delly, Jones, Shumpert, Miller, and Perkins.

The Warriors are better but I don't think by so much that they would sweep the Cavs if you took Curry/Lebron out of it. The Cavs roster is sneaky good.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Kyrie-JR-Shump-Thompson-Mozgov-Dellavedova-Jones...Miller-Perkins

vs

Livingston-Klay-Green-Barnes-Bogut-Iguodala-Barbosa-Ezeli...Speights-Lee

So take away Lebron and Curry and is the Warriors roster THAT much better than the Cavs? I'm struggling to understand where this narrative has come from as it's repeated over and over again. The Warriors roster is not light years better than the Cavs, despite what the media's narrative would have you believe.

You're kidding, I hope.

 

[longislandcuse]

You're kidding, I hope.

I'm not. I'm not saying the Cavs are better but I don't think the Warriors are some unstoppable force even if you take away Curry, which is the narrative that's out there. I also think the Cavs supporting cast is way better than casual fans realize. The way JR has played recently is equivelant to Klay Thompson. I'd say Shumpert has been pretty much an equal of Barnes. Mozgov/Thompson isn't that far off from Green/Bogut. After that, yes, I agree depth-wise the Warriors take it with guys like Barbosa, Iggy etc.. but if Kyrie is healthy, he's a superstar, of which the Warriors only have one (Curry).

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The way JR has played recently is equivelant to Klay Thompson. I'd say Shumpert has been pretty much an equal of Barnes. Mozgov/Thompson isn't that far off from Green/Bogut. After that, yes, I agree depth-wise the Warriors take it with guys like Barbosa, Iggy etc.. but if Kyrie is healthy, he's a superstar, of which the Warriors only have one (Curry).

This is madness.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm not. I'm not saying the Cavs are better but I don't think the Warriors are some unstoppable force even if you take away Curry, which is the narrative that's out there. I also think the Cavs supporting cast is way better than casual fans realize. The way JR has played recently is equivelant to Klay Thompson. I'd say Shumpert has been pretty much an equal of Barnes. Mozgov/Thompson isn't that far off from Green/Bogut. After that, yes, I agree depth-wise the Warriors take it with guys like Barbosa, Iggy etc.. but if Kyrie is healthy, he's a superstar, of which the Warriors only have one (Curry).

You're selling Golden State wayyyy short. Thompson is their second superstar just as good as Kyrie. Klay is averaging 20 in the playoffs, as good as JR has been he is averaging 13. Defensively he's better than Kyrie, and you have to take Draymond over Tristan. He's a better defender and a better offensive player. The only area that's a wash is rebounding. I disagree on Shumpert as well. He's a sub 40% shooter, Barnes is near 50%.

 

[longislandcuse]

This is madness.

Why is it madness? I'm going by what i've seen in the playoffs. If all you saw of JR was 2015 Playoff JR and of Klay, 2015 Playoff Klay...would you be able to say one if definitively better than the other?

Thompson/Mozgov aren't as good as Green/Bogut but it's not like Cleveland is throwing out 2 bums...both are above average at their position.

I don't put Klay Thompson at the superstar level, yet.

It could be that the Cavs just looked good playing against weak, broken down, injured competition and I hope that's true because I really want the Warriors to destroy them but based on what i've watched all postseason, I don't think Warriors minus Curry sweep the Cavs minus Lebron.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Why is it madness? I'm going by what i've seen in the playoffs. If all you saw of JR was 2015 Playoff JR and of Klay, 2015 Playoff Klay...would you be able to say one if definitively better than the other?

Thompson/Mozgov aren't as good as Green/Bogut but it's not like Cleveland is throwing out 2 bums...both are above average at their position.

I don't put Klay Thompson at the superstar level, yet.

It could be that the Cavs just looked good playing against weak, broken down, injured competition and I hope that's true because I really want the Warriors to destroy them but based on what i've watched all postseason, I don't think Warriors minus Curry sweep the Cavs minus Lebron.

Yeah I can say Klay is a lot better. He's asked to do more than JR. He guards the other team's best perimeter player and scores 20 a game. JR is catching and shooting while averaging 13 and had to guard a standstill Kyle Korver the last round.

 

[longislandcuse]

Yeah I can say Klay is a lot better. He's asked to do more than JR. He guards the other team's best perimeter player and scores 20 a game. JR is catching and shooting while averaging 13 and had to guard a standstill Kyle Korver the last round.

JR isn't a bad defender, Klay is very good defensively, I agree. As far as points per game, JR is doing more than catching and shooting, sometimes he catches, dribbles, steps back and shoots lol. I wouldn't go by ppg since the Warriors are way more up-tempo than the Cavs. I can tell you Klay drives Golden State fans crazy with his inconsistency, which is something he needs to work on before being considered a superstar. Lebron-Curry-Kyrie are superstars. Klay is a star with superstar potential.

 

[Cusefan0307]

JR isn't a bad defender, Klay is very good defensively, I agree. As far as points per game, JR is doing more than catching and shooting, sometimes he catches, dribbles, steps back and shoots lol. I wouldn't go by ppg since the Warriors are way more up-tempo than the Cavs. I can tell you Klay drives Golden State fans crazy with his inconsistency, which is something he needs to work on before being considered a superstar. Lebron-Curry-Kyrie are superstars. Klay is a star with superstar potential.

You've lost me. You are calling Klay inconsistent as you compare him to one of the most inconsistent players in basketball. For the playoffs Klay averages 19.7 at %46 overall and 43% from three.

JR is averaging 13 at 46% and 40%.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Why is it madness? I'm going by what i've seen in the playoffs. If all you saw of JR was 2015 Playoff JR and of Klay, 2015 Playoff Klay...would you be able to say one if definitively better than the other?

Thompson/Mozgov aren't as good as Green/Bogut but it's not like Cleveland is throwing out 2 bums...both are above average at their position.

I don't put Klay Thompson at the superstar level, yet.

It could be that the Cavs just looked good playing against weak, broken down, injured competition and I hope that's true because I really want the Warriors to destroy them but based on what i've watched all postseason, I don't think Warriors minus Curry sweep the Cavs minus Lebron.

Here's a good article that supports Curry's supporting cast over Lebron's. All of Lebron's heat teams were better than this Cav's team., and Lebron/Steph are basically a wash the way they have performed this year.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...nk-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

 

[longislandcuse]

Here's a good article that supports Curry's supporting cast over Lebron's. All of Lebron's heat teams were better than this Cav's team., and Lebron/Steph are basically a wash the way they have performed this year.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...nk-among-lebrons-nba-finals-supporting-casts/

Honestly, i'm bored at work and knew this would be a debateable topic but I still don't think Curry's cast is exponentially better than Lebron's. Better, yes, so good that they would sweep the Cavs supporting cast, no I dont think so.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Honestly, i'm bored at work and knew this would be a debateable topic but I still don't think Curry's cast is exponentially better than Lebron's. Better, yes, so good that they would sweep the Cavs supporting cast, no I dont think so.

I'm going to agree to disagree. It's the third worst supporting cast to make the finals in the last 28 years according to that article.

 

[MikeSU02]

Honestly, i'm bored at work and knew this would be a debateable topic but I still don't think Curry's cast is exponentially better than Lebron's. Better, yes, so good that they would sweep the Cavs supporting cast, no I dont think so.

I think it is a debatable topic when you break down guys 1 by 1. I think where the difference comes in is when you look at the system as a whole.

Love getting knocked out, Kyrie playing through tendinitis, scrapping the Princeton offense halfway through the year, getting Mozgov, JR and Iman halfway through the year, etc. There has just been a lot of change and turmoil for this Cleveland team.

I just think the whole of GSW is better than the whole of CLE, (whole being more than the sum of its parts and what not).

If you give CLE one more year with this same roster, but with a better offensive system (because Bron dribbling from 25 feet out before going 1 on 1 is not a sustainable offense), and put them up against GSW, I think it would be a push. But this year, I think GSW will really put a hurting on CLE.

With that said, any team with LeBron has a chance. He can throw up a 40/15/10/5/5 and all of a sudden you're wondering how the heck you can stop this force of nature.

 

[Knicks411]

I think you're falling into the trap of assuming the role players the Cavs have would look about the same without Lebron on the court as they do with him on the court. JR, for one, is playing great in these playoffs (61% true shooting) but do we really think that means JR is now a great player? He's still the same guy. Klay is miles better than JR Smith (i mean the comp is Klay to Kyrie anyway, but Klay and JR is not even close) Draymond Green is really great.

The Warriors had one of the 5 or 6 best regular seasons in league history and they've lost what, 2 games in 3 rounds? The greatness of Lebron is the only reason I think Cleveland has even a punchers chance.

 

[longislandcuse]

I think you're falling into the trap of assuming the role players the Cavs have would look about the same without Lebron on the court as they do with him on the court. JR, for one, is playing great in these playoffs (61% true shooting) but do we really think that means JR is now a great player? He's still the same guy. Klay is miles better than JR Smith (i mean the comp is Klay to Kyrie anyway, but Klay and JR is not even close) Draymond Green is really great.

The Warriors had one of the 5 or 6 best regular seasons in league history and they've lost what, 2 games in 3 rounds? The greatness of Lebron is the only reason I think Cleveland has even a punchers chance.

But that's assuming the Warriors role players would be the same without Curry. The entire Warriors offense is played off either Curry creating or Curry running off screens drawing attention. Steph is also a solid defender.

Klay Thompson, like Kyrie would be the only one capable of consistently creating his own shot and while Klay is a better defender than Kyrie, Klay cannot create or run an offense like Kyrie.

JR Smith would then become the second scorer similar to Harrison Barnes in Golden State's scenario.

Thompson and Green are very different players but both usually man the 4 spot. Both are very good. Thompson is new on the scene while Green is a known commodity swiss army knife.

Mozgov and Bogut will be an interesting match up. I think both are average to above average Centers.

Livingston and Delladova are way different players but both are effective in what they do.

Shump and Iggy are basically 3 and D guys at this point.

After this is where GS has a decided edge with guys like Barbosa, Ezeli and Speights better than Perkins, Jones etc..

All debate aside, I do agree Klay, Green, Iggy etc are better than Cleveland's guys but not as much as people are saying. The narrative that this is Lebron and some scrubs vs a bunch of All-Stars is not true.

 

[Cusefan0307]

But that's assuming the Warriors role players would be the same without Curry. The entire Warriors offense is played off either Curry creating or Curry running off screens drawing attention. Steph is also a solid defender.

Klay Thompson, like Kyrie would be the only one capable of consistently creating his own shot and while Klay is a better defender than Kyrie, Klay cannot create or run an offense like Kyrie.

JR Smith would then become the second scorer similar to Harrison Barnes in Golden State's scenario.

Thompson and Green are very different players but both usually man the 4 spot. Both are very good. Thompson is new on the scene while Green is a known commodity swiss army knife.

Mozgov and Bogut will be an interesting match up. I think both are average to above average Centers.

Livingston and Delladova are way different players but both are effective in what they do.

Shump and Iggy are basically 3 and D guys at this point.

After this is where GS has a decided edge with guys like Barbosa, Ezeli and Speights better than Perkins, Jones etc..

All debate aside, I do agree Klay, Green, Iggy etc are better than Cleveland's guys but not as much as people are saying. The narrative that this is Lebron and some scrubs vs a bunch of All-Stars is not true.

Tristan Thompson is an elite rebounder. I'm not sure what else he is great at. Green is really GSW's third cog and does everything. If both of them were Free Agents, Green would attract close to Max money, i'm not sure what Thompson attracts.

Also I think Livingston is going to torch the Cav's second unit when he's in, just like he torched Prigioni the last round.

Does Cleveland even get to the Western Conference Finals if you swap them with say the Clippers?

 

[longislandcuse]

Tristan Thompson is an elite rebounder. I'm not sure what else he is great at. Green is really GSW's third cog and does everything. If both of them were Free Agents, Green would attract close to Max money, i'm not sure what Thompson attracts.

Also I think Livingston is going to torch the Cav's second unit when he's in, just like he torched Prigioni the last round.

Does Cleveland even get to the Western Conference Finals if you swap them with say the Clippers?

I think so, the Clippers went back to having no heart in the 2nd round. The Spurs probably beat Cleveland but the way Cleveland looked in the playoffs I think they beat anyone outside of SAS or GS. Then again, they played 2 broken down, injured teams so we really won't know until Thursday if they can hang.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Why is it madness? I'm going by what i've seen in the playoffs. If all you saw of JR was 2015 Playoff JR and of Klay, 2015 Playoff Klay...would you be able to say one if definitively better than the other?

Thompson/Mozgov aren't as good as Green/Bogut but it's not like Cleveland is throwing out 2 bums...both are above average at their position.

I don't put Klay Thompson at the superstar level, yet.

It could be that the Cavs just looked good playing against weak, broken down, injured competition and I hope that's true because I really want the Warriors to destroy them but based on what i've watched all postseason, I don't think Warriors minus Curry sweep the Cavs minus Lebron.

Thompson and Mozgov are not above average, unless you're including bench bugs, and even then I'm not sure.

Plus, you're basically completely putting aside how good Igoudala and Tenacious Lee are and comparing them to who? Delladova?

Plus, the Warriors have been built carefully peice by peice. The Cavs are put together like a fantasy team.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Tristan Thompson is an elite rebounder. I'm not sure what else he is great at. Green is really GSW's third cog and does everything. If both of them were Free Agents, Green would attract close to Max money, i'm not sure what Thompson attracts.

Also I think Livingston is going to torch the Cav's second unit when he's in, just like he torched Prigioni the last round.

Does Cleveland even get to the Western Conference Finals if you swap them with say the Clippers?

Cleveland doesn't make it out of the first round in the west.

 

[Knicks411]

Totally fair point on Curry, I should have said that, cause it's true to an extent. I don't think it's to the same extent as Lebron though. The Cavs were -6 points per 100 possessions worse with Lebron on the bench, the Warriors were -1.2 with Steph on the bench.

Draymond Green is REALLY good; he's just as good a defensive player (same for Bogut) with or without Curry. The Warriors were the best defense in the league this year; how much of that is really attributable to Steph? I don't think much at all (Warriors did play better D with Steph on the court but how much of that is due to him sharing the court with Klay/Green/Bogut a lot?) I mean, what it comes down to me is like i said, the Warriors had one of the most dominant seasons of all time. Steph is a fantastic player, but he's not MJ or Lebron or something. The other guys were doing a hell of a lot right.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

The coaching matchups are interesting, too, both first-year NBA head coaches from vastly different backgrounds who both very well could have been working together this season. Kerr's long been a fair-haired boy through all his NBA phases and, rightfully so, has gotten a lotta love for the Warriors' success. Blatt's had a much rougher ride this year and, I think, far more challenges to deal with and deserves more credit than he's gotten and is getting. Think what you want, but, c'mon, Blatt at the very least deserved to finish ahead of, not behind, Quin Snyder for Coach of the Year. http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/coa...ise-while-leading-cavs-to-nba-finals-1.596875

 

[longislandcuse]

The coaching matchups are interesting, too, both first-year NBA head coaches from vastly different backgrounds who both very well could have been working together this season. Kerr's long been a fair-haired boy through all his NBA phases and, rightfully so, has gotten a lotta love for the Warriors' success. Blatt's had a much rougher ride this year and, I think, far more challenges to deal with and deserves more credit than he's gotten and is getting. Think what you want, but, c'mon, Blatt at the very least deserved to finish ahead of, not behind, Quin Snyder for Coach of the Year. http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/coa...ise-while-leading-cavs-to-nba-finals-1.596875

I dont know... Blatt is also one granted timeout away from going down in infamy.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I dont know... Blatt is also one granted timeout away from going down in infamy.

His body of work's greater than that one bad moment. That was a beaut, I admit, thank heavens for Tyronn Lue, but I imagine even Pop has made a mistake or two in his time, probably, Kerr, too.

BTW, did you read that link?