Carmelo officially retiring!

[DoctorBombay]

What eye test is he using?

How about that of a fellow pro who had the unenviable task of playing defense on Melo in his prime. Agree or disagree, he's not coming from a position of ignorance, and it is just his opinion.

 

[RandygoCuse]

How about that of a fellow pro who had the unenviable task of playing defense on Melo in his prime. Agree or disagree, he's not coming from a position of ignorance, and it is just his opinion.

In my opinion, he hasn’t come from a position of appreciating history

 

[Orangezoo]

In my opinion, he hasn’t come from a position of appreciating history

Well he was speaking about both his ability and longevity to go with. Melo is top 10 all time in scoring. That isn't some nominal feat as though he was a get his own no matter what that got him to that point. So a top 10 all time scorer being labeled a top 15 player all time is far from an extreme.

At worst he's a top 25-30 player of all time. Bartons take seemed pretty fair.

 

[Day2]

In my opinion, he hasn’t come from a position of appreciating history

There are plenty of haters out there making your argument on Twitter. Why don’t you let the rest of us enjoy the moment?

 

[RandygoCuse]

There are plenty of haters out there making your argument on Twitter. Why don’t you let the rest of us enjoy the moment?

I love Melo but I call out someone if I think they are way off

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Melo may have been the greatest international player ever. Was unstoppable under those rules.

 

[Day2]

I love Melo but I call out someone if I think they are way off

We don’t need to hear it.

It’s a simple request on behalf of the fan base. I’m not responding again, so do whatever you think is right.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Well he was speaking about both his ability and longevity to go with. Melo is top 10 all time in scoring. That isn't some nominal feat as though he was a get his own no matter what that got him to that point. So a top 10 all time scorer being labeled a top 15 player all time is far from an extreme.

At worst he's a top 25-30 player of all time. Bartons take seemed pretty fair.

He’s definitely in the all time 75 list, but I think 30 is a stretch

 

[Orangezoo]

He’s definitely in the all time 75 list, but I think 30 is a stretch

I think guys with shorter careers are over celebrated. Longevity is a big part of it.

 

[OrangeDW]

In my opinion, he hasn’t come from a position of appreciating history

Paul Pierce is on record as saying Melo was the toughest player he ever had to guard.

Numbers like “top ______” really don’t mean anything no matter who is saying them. Players. Young fans(who favor guys they watched. Older fans (who favor guys they watched when they were young). Really, it’s impossible to compare across eras anyway.

Bottom line is Melo had a near 20 year career averaging over double digits every year and averaging over 20 for most of his career, and he could do it all - some of the best footwork of all time, good 3 point shooter, great mid range shooter, could attack the rim, post, etc.

You can’t really draw up a more dangerous or versatile scorer…..one of the few guys who really couldn’t be guarded if he was “on”.

 

[Day2]

Paul Pierce is on record as saying Melo was the toughest player he ever had to guard.

Numbers like “top ______” really don’t mean anything no matter who is saying them. Players. Young fans(who favor guys they watched. Older fans (who favor guys they watched when they were young). Really, it’s impossible to compare across eras anyway.

Bottom line is Melo had a near 20 year career averaging over double digits every year and averaging over 20 for most of his career, and he could do it all - some of the best footwork of all time, good 3 point shooter, great mid range shooter, could attack the rim, post, etc.

You can’t really draw up a more dangerous or versatile scorer…..one of the few guys who really couldn’t be guarded if he was “on”.

Had he not been blackballed twice, he’d probably be sixth in scoring all-time, behind Jordan.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think guys with shorter careers are over celebrated. Longevity is a big part of it.

That is always a tough argument too.

You could argue that a guy like Tracy McGrady was a little better all
around than Melo at their respective peaks? But Melo played at or close to “peak” for longer and had the more accomplished career. So who was “better”?

Who knows and it really doesn’t matter.

Carmelo is one of the best basketball players any of us has ever watched, and that’s all that really matters.

 

[UpstateSM]

Making an account on a Maryland forum and telling them that Juan Dixon is actually overrated

 

[NineOneSeven]

Hell of a career. Obviously what he did for Syracuse in 2003, one of the best runs ever, as a freshman. Tremendous stuff. Add in the intl accomplishments. An NBA top 10 scorer, at his peak an offensive force. Really remarkable. He’s a clear first ballot HoF guy for sure. But to say he’s top 30 all time…. Not sure how. Would love to see a list put together by those ranking him that high [yes opinions and subjectivity are a factor but objective data should be used to generate them]. Rankings get hard across eras especially factoring injuries in, but it’s why we love debate.

Does he mean a lot to this board because of Syracuse? OBVIOUSLY. And I’ve been a big defender of his especially to Knicks’ friends of mine that have some strong feelings about his time there underwhelming (and I do my best to be clear it’s not Syracuse bias speak).

 

[NineOneSeven]

Here's the thing - one of the biggest challenges he faced from day one is being drafted in the same draft class as Bron who is a top three player of all time. 2002 and it's Yao/Jay Will. If it's 2004, it's Dwight and Emeka.

The second thing is he could have, if he really wanted to, joined up on a real super team and likely got a chip. For better or worse, he didn't.

I still contend that if the 2009 WCF are played 10x, I think the Nugs win at least 4x or 5x of those times. They should have def won game 1. That series was close. Nugs would have beaten the Magic. He wins that one and his whole career is looked at differently.

He is a top 10 scorer of all time. He is a top 75 player of all time. He had the greatest one year stop in college of all time. He helped restore US Men's Olympic Team basketball.

He is a first ballot, no question, hall of famer.

The potential that people are looking for are winning a title and being measured against Bron who he was never going to be as good as.

To your other point, outside of basketball, he's a great representative for Syracuse. Awesome to see. I hope he picks JB to do his intro for the HoF.

Said better than I could.

 

[MikeSU02]

Said better than I could.

The other thing, is that this was the era of small forwards. Bron, KD, Kawhi just to name a few. All have multiple Finals MVPs. If Melo was more of a traditional shooting guard? Totally different. But he played a position that was stacked.

 

[Orangezoo]

Hell of a career. Obviously what he did for Syracuse in 2003, one of the best runs ever, as a freshman. Tremendous stuff. Add in the intl accomplishments. An NBA top 10 scorer, at his peak an offensive force. Really remarkable. He’s a clear first ballot HoF guy for sure. But to say he’s top 30 all time…. Not sure how. Would love to see a list put together by those ranking him that high [yes opinions and subjectivity are a factor but objective data should be used to generate them]. Rankings get hard across eras especially factoring injuries in, but it’s why we love debate.

Does he mean a lot to this board because of Syracuse? OBVIOUSLY. And I’ve been a big defender of his especially to Knicks’ friends of mine that have some strong feelings about his time there underwhelming (and I do my best to be clear it’s not Syracuse bias speak).

It's not easy for sure. That said do you put guys with titles whose prime production was in a short window as a priority over guys like Melo who did it over a longer career?

I don't think it is as easy to say no way is he a top 30 player. He was an elite scorer overlapping two to three generations of NBA stars. People have their favorite players like McGrady and Penny amongst other guys who had some great seasons and also got titles despite much lesser statistics.

So if we take tenure and longevity out of the equation you would massively upend the top 75 as it stands today. More than a few guys had incredible years and were unstoppable some with more playoff success. Then you have the guys that were high level for a long time and have massive stats.

Another way to do it is simply make it clear who the GOATs are. Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, West, Kobe.

Can argue on maybe a couple of other guys on that top level(Shaq, Oscar, Erving, Etc). After that you then start looking at what you are going to prioritize to rank the next 30-50 guys. It's absolutely not cut and dry, depending on how you prioritize as to where Melo should or shouldn't fall.

 

[Cuse99&01]

It's not easy for sure. That said do you put guys with titles whose prime production was in a short window as a priority over guys like Melo who did it over a longer career?

I don't think it is as easy to say no way is he a top 30 player. He was an elite scorer overlapping two to three generations of NBA stars. People have their favorite players like McGrady and Penny amongst other guys who had some great seasons and also got titles despite much lesser statistics.

So if we take tenure and longevity out of the equation you would massively upend the top 75 as it stands today. More than a few guys had incredible years and were unstoppable some with more playoff success. Then you have the guys that were high level for a long time and have massive stats.

Another way to do it is simply make it clear who the GOATs are. Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, West, Kobe.

Can argue on maybe a couple of other guys on that top level(Shaq, Oscar, Erving, Etc). After that you then start looking at what you are going to prioritize to rank the next 30-50 guys. It's absolutely not cut and dry, depending on how you prioritize as to where Melo should or shouldn't fall.

I can see an argument for and against top 30 for Melo. I don't think there there is much doubt/argument against top 50.

A couple others that have to be included on that GOAT/top level you have listed - Magic and Russell.

 

[Orangezoo]

I can see an argument for and against top 30 for Melo. I don't think there there is much doubt/argument against top 50.

A couple others that have to be included on that GOAT/top level you have listed - Magic and Russell.

Magic was great and also played with Kareem to be fair but that GOAT list could be shuffled a bit some too after the obvious 4 or 5. After that though it's all about how you prioritize numbers.

Another tough thing with guys like Russell, West and Big O is that there is an argument to be had to say hey- these guys played most if not all their careers before the NBA truly expanded along with prior to the merger. They had a much shorter path to titles and winning playoff series.

 

[Eric15]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in the 7-page thread but is it possible that both the Nuggets and Knicks would retire Melo's number?

He's one of 4 10k point scorers for Denver and one of seven for the Knicks.

 

[Eric15]

I can see an argument for and against top 30 for Melo. I don't think there there is much doubt/argument against top 50.

A couple others that have to be included on that GOAT/top level you have listed - Magic and Russell.

I love Melo but there's no way he's Top 30.

25-30 (on ESPN's all-time list which I think is very solid) is Havlicek, Isiah, Chris Paul, Mikan, and DWade. I don't think you can take any of those five off. And then the next five (30-35) are Iverson, Pippen, Kawhi, Cousy, Pettit.

 

[shandeezy7]

If the NBA had position-less all NBA teams, how many more would Melo have made? It’s one of the knocks you hear on Melo, but as others have said, small forward was so stacked during his career that it limited the number of times he was on these teams, despite clearly being a top 15 player in the league for a long stretch. I mean, in 13/14 he averaged 27, 8 and 3 and didn’t even make all-NBA 3rd team. Asinine.

 

[shandeezy7]

I should add that in 13/14, Melo finished runner-up for the scoring title. Just to reiterate, he was NOT ALL-NBA that year. In 2010/11, Melo finished third in scoring while adding 7.5 rebounds and 3 assists per game. Once again, not all-NBA. Like I said: asinine.

 

[Eric15]

If the NBA had position-less all NBA teams, how many more would Melo have made? It’s one of the knocks you hear on Melo, but as others have said, small forward was so stacked during his career that it limited the number of times he was on these teams, despite clearly being a top 15 player in the league for a long stretch. I mean, in 13/14 he averaged 27, 8 and 3 and didn’t even make all-NBA 3rd team. Asinine.

I think MVP voting results (while obviously not a perfect predictor) is a pretty good way to look at it. It's positionless. Melo finished in the Top 15 of the MVP voting six times, and there are 15 spots on the All-NBA team.

 

[shandeezy7]

I think MVP voting results (while obviously not a perfect predictor) is a pretty good way to look at it. It's positionless. Melo finished in the Top 15 of the MVP voting six times, and there are 15 spots on the All-NBA team.

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Yeah but I feel like MVP voting is way more skewed for team success than all-NBA. Also, 10/11 was the year he was traded, so that probably skewed things as well.