Christmas

[Quazzum69]

Maybe Rak is just content being a modest contributor on a championship-caliber, final four team. No one should be mad that he's not devoting every bit of his life trying to be the best player he can be (I assume he's not - very few people do). He's getting an education at a top-50 university playing on a top-10 team, in the starting five and apparently quite close to Jimmy Fallon; a hell of a lot more than I accomplished at his age.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

i have no problem with Boeheim, but you can't say there doesn't seem to be at least 1 player a year that for some reason or the other seems to be on a shorter leash then everyone else. i am a huge JB fan, and also a huge rak fan. probably one of his biggest supporters. he worked his ass off over the summer came back 15-20lbs heavier, and for the most part looked like he was ready to contribute. but then he would get the quick hooks and he seemed to have mentally crumbled. i'm not trying to be a shrink, but not all kids are wired the same. rak seems to be one of those guys where the in your face approach has not worked.

I, too, liked what the physical changes made by Rak from the last off-season. He does look ready to contribute. But he didn't really. He is generally a little less than average. He doesn't exert himself, doesn't even seem to hustle usually.

What would you have wanted JB to do for him? Keep playing him when he didn't hustle back on D, yet BMK would, DC2 would. How fair is that for people busting their butts that you allow someone minutes who isn't hustling?

 

[orangefan13]

Rak has the athleticism and body, but needs to put the time into fundementals in the offseason instead of frame wherever he ends up at. Hes hitting a upperclassmen role its time for him to hit that curve. Its what is on the inside now not the outside.


Rak would make a nice pf in a system where a 4 can pack the paint more. There is no question it would be a huge blow to syracuse if he left though, Huge. There is no such thing as anchor four in JB's zone unless you have a 7'2 shotblocker back there and that you don't double with. You have to be mobile. But, what being a four in JB's zone gives up in anchor fours, it adds in run outs and transition half court offense. On a plus Its more the quickness to cover ground for forwards then doing it by sliding in JB's zone. Keita has the quickness I think, but he is so solid at moving short distances as a anchor.

Also Go back to the montana game JB had Dajaun playing away from the basket alot. If you can get one of your centers/pf's to do that on offense the other one can plausibly play some 4 on defense if he can cover some ground.

I have said it for years. Leaders and upperclassmen have to step out of their comfort zone and do the things that the team is missing. Rak and Keita will be upperclassmen and are aware of this. Its up to them to sort the mess out. And JB and hop need to have alittle talk with them about it again. Keitas best game is at center with short burts of movement, but guess what sometimes upperclassmen have to do what the team is missing. Its their Job and everyone is counting on them to do it.

Like Arinze and Rick Jackson Keita could play some four, but that depends on Dajuan or Rak stepping up as a scorer and it has to be in the high post and they have to be able to dribble some. JB was using Dajuan in that role against Montana. I get the feeling we will rather see Dajuan guarded by fours then mobile 7 footers.

 

[otisco]

imo bernie fine would never ever have been hired as big man coach at any other university in the country. he was jim boeheim's close friend from the start and that's the only reason he kept his job.

hilton armstrong redshirted? maybe you're thinking matt gorman. be hard to confuse them tho...

Your posts generally are one-liners and usually pretty funny, and usually give me a giggle. Calling you out you on this one, though and asking you to confirm that it is based purely on your own subjective viewpoint?

 

[CiceroCuse]

I have nothing against X, though I was one of the few on this forum who felt he was over-rated even from day 1.

I hope he stays if he is willing to accept whatever his role might be.

However, the bottom line for me is that I am tired of playing 4 on 5 on the O end of the floor. The only one who can change that is DC2. Whatever it takes to make room for DC2 to get meaningful minutes should be the #1 priority at the 5 spot. Yes, there will be a learning curve for DC2 on D. We will need to pay that price early in the season. I have said all year long that Jimmy gave up on him too soon. I do not want to see that mistake made again.

well, it has been no secret that JB does not play anyone who doesn't play good defense. You can have all the offensive talent in the world, you will not see quality playing time if you don't know how to play in the zone. Thats why JSouth didn't get much time early in his career, Mookie, and plenty others. He has always sacrificed "O" for "D". I generally don't have a problem with that.

 

[pfister1]

Couple comments:

I can only think of one example of a guy who redshirted at SU in a year other than his freshman year; Matt Gorman. Matt never made it on the floor before or after. Maybe there was somone else, but he doesn't come to mind. Scoop is not a good example. If I remember correctly Scoop had an injury that contributed to his decision to redshirt. We talk about the redshirts like our program redshirts guys with regularity...it isn't that common in hoops and imo there is 0% chance that Rak will be among the next to do it.

In thinking about the rotation next year, I can almost guarantee that Baye isn't going to be last man up. He was effectively our best option at Center for most of this season, played his butt off and has improved every year in the program. He may not be at the level we'd like our center to be at, but I don't think he is going to end up lost in the shuffle next season. I think it is more likely that there is a battle between DC and Rak which may actually be won or lost in the offseason based on who improves and who doesn't and then Baye ends up first man off the bench at the center position. Rak hasn't shown a motor most of the time he's on the court. He is going to have a hard time hanging on to minutes if Coleman steps up.

 

[OttoMets]

i have no problem with Boeheim, but you can't say there doesn't seem to be at least 1 player a year that for some reason or the other seems to be on a shorter leash then everyone else. i am a huge JB fan, and also a huge rak fan. probably one of his biggest supporters. he worked his ass off over the summer came back 15-20lbs heavier, and for the most part looked like he was ready to contribute. but then he would get the quick hooks and he seemed to have mentally crumbled. i'm not trying to be a shrink, but not all kids are wired the same. rak seems to be one of those guys where the in your face approach has not worked.

This is all correct. Not sure what other people are watching.

 

[newmexicuse]

well, it has been no secret that JB does not play anyone who doesn't play good defense. You can have all the offensive talent in the world, you will not see quality playing time if you don't know how to play in the zone. Thats why JSouth didn't get much time early in his career, Mookie, and plenty others. He has always sacrificed "O" for "D". I generally don't have a problem with that.

Yes, you are correct, Jimmy sacrifices O for D. However, that sacrifice should not be mindless, it should be based upon risk v reward. Mookie and JSouth early did not bring enough potential reward to offset the risk, plus we had other alternatives at their positions.

You have to look at DC2's potential upside v how much worse he might be as a defender than Rak.

No question, at day one DC2 will be a much worse defender. He will never be the shot-blocker that Rak is, but there is no reason he can't be an Arinze type of space eater. However, if he gets some PT, which will give him experience and also help him get into better shape what would his game look at come next March ??? IMHO, DC2 has 3x the O upside of Rak plus he is a better rebounder, and there is no reason why he can't be at least 90% as good a defender given experience and conditioning.

The problem I have with Jimmy is not his preference for D to O, it is that sometimes he is too short-sighted. Take this season, eg, I felt (injury aside) that DC2 should have been getting more minutes all along. It is very true that had that been done, we might not have gotten to the FF. However, let's just say for argument's sake that DC2 had improved w PT into the player almost everybody on this forum thinks he might become (think Arinze as a soph for the time being) & we had gotten to the Mich game in the FF. Does anybody doubt that an effective DC2 would not have been the difference in that game ??

Jimmy coaches to max his chances to win each individual game, I think in order to win championships that sometimes you have to risk individual games to seek long term improvement.

 

[Alsacs]

Rak needs to follow the motto Wichita State followed PLAY ANGRY. If Rak played with intensity he has more talent than somebody like Gary Hall from Wichita St and he could be a real player. Instead, Rak is a nice guy and doesn't want to demand the ball in the post. If you get blocked its okay just continue playing with anger and Rak could easily average 6-8 pts a game. Rak has actual skill and potential to be something unlike Keita is a great role player and somebody for depth. Coleman needs to follow the Melo progression from Freshman to Sophomore(non-academic obviously) lose a little weight and work as much as he can on improving his defensive abilities.

 

[BostonOrange]

BostonOrange: Expert on Foreign Basketball

Seriously though, Rak can easily go pro in Europe.

Ha. Go look at the rosters of the better European leagues and then get back to me genius.

 

[Madbiker]

Anyone think Keita could/should learn to play the 4 next year?

I think out of all our big's he'd be the best. I think he'd be far better at the 4 than XMas. He could back up Grant at the 4 and be a 3rd string center in case of foul trouble or injury.

In JB's system the forwards HAVE to score and have face up skills. BMK will is not suited to the 4 spot and neither was Rak. With CJ, Grant, and Roberson there won't be a big need for another forward next season.

 

[JackBauer44]

I think RAK is going to show a lot of improvement next year. In the last games of the season/tournament, he was looking for his offense and being more aggressive when he touched the ball. Give him a summer of working with that attitude and mindset, I believe he turns it around in a big way.

 

[SoBristol]

I don't get the comments that Rak (or Keita) was held back by JB's system of rotating the two. Call it a short leash if you want, but JB gave each of the two lots of opportunities. Rak doesn't bring much offense other than finishing inside 6 ft; and on defense he doesn't anticipate and get in position as well as JB would like. He also gets tagged for fouls -- and in several games, his time was limited not by JB but by foul trouble. Rak & Keita are pretty even in what they contribute -- no wonder that they share the minutes.

I also don't get the comments that DC is going to blossom suddenly and force Keita to lose his role. DC is a work in progress -- ideally, he figures it out and improves enough to get major minutes as a junior.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Yes, you are correct, Jimmy sacrifices O for D. However, that sacrifice should not be mindless, it should be based upon risk v reward. Mookie and JSouth early did not bring enough potential reward to offset the risk, plus we had other alternatives at their positions.

You have to look at DC2's potential upside v how much worse he might be as a defender than Rak.

No question, at day one DC2 will be a much worse defender. He will never be the shot-blocker that Rak is, but there is no reason he can't be an Arinze type of space eater. However, if he gets some PT, which will give him experience and also help him get into better shape what would his game look at come next March ??? IMHO, DC2 has 3x the O upside of Rak plus he is a better rebounder, and there is no reason why he can't be at least 90% as good a defender given experience and conditioning.

The problem I have with Jimmy is not his preference for D to O, it is that sometimes he is too short-sighted. Take this season, eg, I felt (injury aside) that DC2 should have been getting more minutes all along. It is very true that had that been done, we might not have gotten to the FF. However, let's just say for argument's sake that DC2 had improved w PT into the player almost everybody on this forum thinks he might become (think Arinze as a soph for the time being) & we had gotten to the Mich game in the FF. Does anybody doubt that an effective DC2 would not have been the difference in that game ??

Jimmy coaches to max his chances to win each individual game, I think in order to win championships that sometimes you have to risk individual games to seek long term improvement.

I think you have chosen a very poor example. DC2 was the third best center at the beginning of the year, yet he was starting. That is JB playing for the future. And DC2 was working his way into more minutes. I thought DC2 played well against @LVille and he played quite a few minutes. DC2 was being developed. JB has identified potential and tried to develop it for several seasons now with his token start concept. DC2 was really the first to respond and be rewarded, prior to his injury.

And what is up with saying "injury aside"? The injury happened! That is what stopped DC2 from starting. By the time DC2 came back from the injury the games had notched up in importance. The BET and NCAAT games were crucial to our season and no place to try and develop someone.

I, too, think DC2 has the best offensive potential of the centers. I like the SU teams that have the post option, it makes them more complete. For that reason, I would have mixed feelings if Rak leaves. I think it would force JB into a rapid development mode for DC2.

 

[newmexicuse]

I think you have chosen a very poor example. DC2 was the third best center at the beginning of the year, yet he was starting. That is JB playing for the future. And DC2 was working his way into more minutes. I thought DC2 played well against @LVille and he played quite a few minutes. DC2 was being developed. JB has identified potential and tried to develop it for several seasons now with his token start concept. DC2 was really the first to respond and be rewarded, prior to his injury.

And what is up with saying "injury aside"? The injury happened! That is what stopped DC2 from starting. By the time DC2 came back from the injury the games had notched up in importance. The BET and NCAAT games were crucial to our season and no place to try and develop someone.

I, too, think DC2 has the best offensive potential of the centers. I like the SU teams that have the post option, it makes them more complete. For that reason, I would have mixed feelings if Rak leaves. I think it would force JB into a rapid development mode for DC2.

Personally, I hate the token starter concept.

1. It denies the honor of starting to the kid who really has earned that privilege.

2. The token starter gets pulled after his first mistake, often only a couple o fminutes into the game & often never to return. How can that kid play by his instincts rather than constantly looking over his shoulder ? How that kid gain any real experience ? Frankly, getting pulled early & notgetting back in has to be a confidence buster.

3. Much better to find a spot in the game when Jimmy can insert the kid he wants to develop & give that kid a solid 5 to 10 minute run.

4. I think even had DC2 not been injured, that Jimmy was on the verge of removing him as a starter. He simply wasn't playing as well as X or BMK, and come March you gotta go with your best. Now, my opinion, is that he wasn't playing that well because he had not gotten more minutes earlier and he had not been allowed to play through his mistakes (see eg the Adams kid @ Pitt by contrast & how much that kid improved throughout the season). I really think Jimmy mis-handled DC2 this season.

 

[SoBristol]

Personally, I hate the token starter concept.

1. It denies the honor of starting to the kid who really has earned that privilege.

2. The token starter gets pulled after his first mistake, often only a couple o fminutes into the game & often never to return. How can that kid play by his instincts rather than constantly looking over his shoulder ? How that kid gain any real experience ? Frankly, getting pulled early & notgetting back in has to be a confidence buster.

3. Much better to find a spot in the game when Jimmy can insert the kid he wants to develop & give that kid a solid 5 to 10 minute run.

4. I think even had DC2 not been injured, that Jimmy was on the verge of removing him as a starter. He simply wasn't playing as well as X or BMK, and come March you gotta go with your best. Now, my opinion, is that he wasn't playing that well because he had not gotten more minutes earlier and he had not been allowed to play through his mistakes (see eg the Adams kid @ Pitt by contrast & how much that kid improved throughout the season). I really think Jimmy mis-handled DC2 this season.

I was with you, right up to the second part of "4". I think JB did fine by giving Grant and Cooney some time in the middle of the first half of games -- allowing a starter to sit for a few minutes, extended by how the TV time-outs work.

But I doubt DC's development was held back. He had lots of opportunities in practice against legit defenders; he didn't prove he was ready for more time (Montana not being a true counter-example, as they didn't have a true C); and he would not have helped the team as much as Rak and Keita.

JB and staff watch how the kids play in practice. If DC works as he should over the summer, he will get his chances next season.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Personally, I hate the token starter concept.

1. It denies the honor of starting to the kid who really has earned that privilege.

2. The token starter gets pulled after his first mistake, often only a couple o fminutes into the game & often never to return. How can that kid play by his instincts rather than constantly looking over his shoulder ? How that kid gain any real experience ? Frankly, getting pulled early & notgetting back in has to be a confidence buster.

3. Much better to find a spot in the game when Jimmy can insert the kid he wants to develop & give that kid a solid 5 to 10 minute run.

4. I think even had DC2 not been injured, that Jimmy was on the verge of removing him as a starter. He simply wasn't playing as well as X or BMK, and come March you gotta go with your best. Now, my opinion, is that he wasn't playing that well because he had not gotten more minutes earlier and he had not been allowed to play through his mistakes (see eg the Adams kid @ Pitt by contrast & how much that kid improved throughout the season). I really think Jimmy mis-handled DC2 this season.

Personally, I love the token starter concept. It has been the single best change out of JB in recent years. It has allowed JB to develop and play players that he normally would not have given nearly as much time. I think it is hard for JB to give out developmental time while in the heat of the game. His entire focus once the ball is in the air is to win the game at hand. He found a way for him to give subs time. As to your points:

1. This is why JB is stressing it's not who starts that matters, but who finishes.
2. The token starter gets time until they screw up. Certainly doe not have to be a confidence buster and could ultimately be a decent learning mechanism. DC2 was starting to get the hang of it. The @LVille game DC2 was doing well and got more PT.
3. The finding spots in the game angle is very tough to do. This was JBs weakness before and this has been his solution. For example, recently, he stopped starting Grant and put in JS. The problem then was finding Grant time because if they started out hot, JB didn't want to let the foot off the pedal, and if they started off slow JB would want all the offense he could get.
4. Hard to say what would have happened with DC2. But DC2 was getting opportunities up until he was injured. Yes, in March the rotation would probably tighten. If DC2 hadn't made his mark by then, no shame in him riding out the FF run and coming back stronger next year.

 

[newmexicuse]

Personally, I love the token starter concept. It has been the single best change out of JB in recent years. It has allowed JB to develop and play players that he normally would not have given nearly as much time. I think it is hard for JB to give out developmental time while in the heat of the game. His entire focus once the ball is in the air is to win the game at hand. He found a way for him to give subs time. As to your points:

1. This is why JB is stressing it's not who starts that matters, but who finishes.
2. The token starter gets time until they screw up. Certainly doe not have to be a confidence buster and could ultimately be a decent learning mechanism. DC2 was starting to get the hang of it. The @LVille game DC2 was doing well and got more PT.
3. The finding spots in the game angle is very tough to do. This was JBs weakness before and this has been his solution. For example, recently, he stopped starting Grant and put in JS. The problem then was finding Grant time because if they started out hot, JB didn't want to let the foot off the pedal, and if they started off slow JB would want all the offense he could get.
4. Hard to say what would have happened with DC2. But DC2 was getting opportunities up until he was injured. Yes, in March the rotation would probably tighten. If DC2 hadn't made his mark by then, no shame in him riding out the FF run and coming back stronger next year.

So you think JB did a better job this season developing token starter DC2 than he did just finding minutes for non-token starters Jerami & Trevor ??? How about last season comparing the development of Rak to MCW ? Or the year before comparing Fab to CJ, Dion, and BMK ??

 

[timkay99]

The greatest myth that the media and fans cling to is that freshman need to play to improve.

This is 100% false. You don't get better during the season, you make your jumps during the off-season.

IMO, the key with frosh is to play them enough to gain some confidence and to understand the things they need to improve on in the gym or workout wise. He has done that with all 3 freshman from this year.

Just because fans set overly high expectations is not the players' fault. I posted a midseason look at DC2 compared to other centers from the McDonalds All American Game, which showed him to be right in line with the others. And fans still said I was crazy for him being right where he was supposed to be.

I honestly think people will be pissed off about DC2 if he averages 8 and 5 next year. And that is a problem.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

So you think JB did a better job this season developing token starter DC2 than he did just finding minutes for non-token starters Jerami & Trevor ??? How about last season comparing the development of Rak to MCW ? Or the year before comparing Fab to CJ, Dion, and BMK ??

DC2 was/is the 3rd string center. It went Rak/BMK/DC2. I'd say he got a lot more developmental time than say D Riley or pretty much any other 3rd string center here ever.

Trevor was backup to both guards. You should compare DC2 to the 4th guard but I don't know who that is, so yes I think DC2 was developed a lot more than the 4th guard.

Grant earned his time. He is the anti"Boeheimed" argument. Slated as the 4th forward he moved up by excellent play.

Look I hope DC2 works hard this off-season. I hope he is earns the start over BMK so he can use the time on the court to produce the missing post game we all want. But I don't think JB's decision on playing time was the root of DC2's problems.

 

[newmexicuse]

The greatest myth that the media and fans cling to is that freshman need to play to improve.

This is 100% false. You don't get better during the season, you make your jumps during the off-season.

IMO, the key with frosh is to play them enough to gain some confidence and to understand the things they need to improve on in the gym or workout wise. He has done that with all 3 freshman from this year.

Just because fans set overly high expectations is not the players' fault. I posted a midseason look at DC2 compared to other centers from the McDonalds All American Game, which showed him to be right in line with the others. And fans still said I was crazy for him being right where he was supposed to be.

I honestly think people will be pissed off about DC2 if he averages 8 and 5 next year. And that is a problem.

McGary - nuff said !!!

If our guy improved 1/2 as much as their guy did during the season we would be playing tonight.

 

[timkay99]

McGary - nuff said !!!

If our guy improved 1/2 as much as their guy did during the season we would be playing tonight.

So, your saying Coleman would have been McGary with more playing time?

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/45978/jordan-morgan

I present the case of their other big, Jordan Morgan. 24 minutes as a frosh. Never developed. According to your theory, he should have taken a massive step forward as a soph.

 

[newmexicuse]

So, your saying Coleman would have been McGary with more playing time?

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/45978/jordan-morgan

I present the case of their other big, Jordan Morgan. 24 minutes as a frosh. Never developed. According to your theory, he should have taken a massive step forward as a soph.

The token starter strategy is a proven failure. Three years in a row we we used that strategy with Mickey Doo-doo All Americans (or close to it), and NONE of them have made any in season progression.

By contrast this year you can look at Jerami, who was coming along nicely with rotational minutes off the bench and as a bona fide starter UNTIL he was made a token starter and then there was immediate regression.

Now, obviously, not every player, if given the opportunity, will progress intra-season as you point out with Morgan.

My point is that if DC2 was given a consistent 10 to 15 MPG off the bench that there is really ZERO question that he would have been ahead of where he was at the end of the season. Does that mean that he would have been good enough to get March minutes ahead of BMK or X ??? We will never know the answer to that question with certainty. What we do know with certainty is that three years running we have used the token starter strategy with players who were considered to be relative mega-talents coming out of HS, and none of those players made any in season progress.

 

[tbonezone]

Your posts generally are one-liners and usually pretty funny, and usually give me a giggle. Calling you out you on this one, though and asking you to confirm that it is based purely on your own subjective viewpoint?

well the bernie post starts with "imo". so yes that's subjective. not aware that he was ever offered a position anywhere else before or since. and he is available. the hilton point was fact based (2 sources) and only brought up to point out an error (which even the poster admits) about his redshirting. matt gorman redshirting after the soph yr was another fact. i suppose the benefit factor would be subjective but i saw no real improvement in his game and other than providing us with a decent practice player he made no significant contributions during game time. sorry that's not funny cuz i know matt and he's a great guy.

 

[timkay99]

The token starter strategy is a proven failure. Three years in a row we we used that strategy with Mickey Doo-doo All Americans (or close to it), and NONE of them have made any in season progression.

By contrast this year you can look at Jerami, who was coming along nicely with rotational minutes off the bench and as a bona fide starter UNTIL he was made a token starter and then there was immediate regression.

The key part of this is in season progression.

I would argue Jerami didn't really improve during the course of the season. He is what he was. It is just that he had 20 minutes to show it when Southerland went out versus having 5 minutes to show it when Southerland returned. He was a quality zone defender and rebounder who actually lost confidence in his offensive ability as the season wore on.

I mean, Cooney played a lot of minutes as a reserve with a well defined role and he didn't show any in season progression. Same player, same shot, just some times it went in, other times it didn't.