Clemson wants out of the ACC too...(shocker)

[All4SU]

Unfortunately you are right, but eventually when you cut out large areas of the population, the money will dry up.
Who really wants to tune in Mississippi versus Mississippi St, or Iowa versus Illinois, or Indiana?
No one in the Northeast, or Atlantic Coast cares about those teams.

I don’t care about anyone but Syracuse. The day we are out, so am I.

 

[Moontan]

The biggest offender in my opinion of the bunch is Georgia Tech who can literally recruit nearly their entire roster within metro Atlanta and field an extremely competitive team within the conference. Yet they are what they are…

This is not an observation based on recent history. My rub with them dates back to long before Cuss and Pitt joined. A 10 minute search on Google regarding those programs historical revenue and expenditures by sport, recruiting budgets, coaches salaries, etc will validate my comment about their comfort with mediocrity.

"Cuss"? Really?

----

One thing that people don't realize is that GA Tech only offers a limited number of majors.
Georgia Tech offers 35 undergraduate degrees from its six colleges: Business, Computing, Design, Engineering, Liberal Arts, and Sciences. They also have a high acceptance criteria.

There were 16 football player graduates in 2020. 11 majored in business administration, 2 obtained their master's degrees, 2 received engineering degrees and 1 obtained a degree in literature, media and communication.

When I attended my son's introductory meeting for GA Tech's business school, I was suprised to see a number of potential students who had the physique of football players and sat together in the back of the venue.

Meanwhile, at Syracuse University:
With over 200 majors, 100 minors, more than 200 advanced degree programs and hundreds of top researchers and scholars across Syracuse University’s 13 schools and colleges, you’ll find infinite ways to make real-world impact.

It's got to be easier to attract players when there are more majors and some may not be as demanding on the academic front. While all schools offer assistance via their athletic departments, I suspect that things aren't the same everywhere. Right, Loserville?

 

[orangecuse]

I agree...but the money gap is growing substantially over next 10 years. The difference was minor by comparison over the past 10-15 years. I get their argument about being left behind. I just dont agree with the legal arguments.

Exactly. And, everything in life is relative. So, just as we "had to leave" the Big East for football to "competitively" survive a decade ago, who the hell are we to say to Clemson it's not the same deal and that it's greed vs. survival? Especially, based upon where things are clear as day headed in the decade to come.

 

[orangefog]

"Cuss"? Really?

----

One thing that people don't realize is that GA Tech only offers a limited number of majors.
Georgia Tech offers 35 undergraduate degrees from its six colleges: Business, Computing, Design, Engineering, Liberal Arts, and Sciences. They also have a high acceptance criteria.

There were 16 football player graduates in 2020. 11 majored in business administration, 2 obtained their master's degrees, 2 received engineering degrees and 1 obtained a degree in literature, media and communication.

When I attended my son's introductory meeting for GA Tech's business school, I was suprised to see a number of potential students who had the physique of football players and sat together in the back of the venue.

Meanwhile, at Syracuse University:
With over 200 majors, 100 minors, more than 200 advanced degree programs and hundreds of top researchers and scholars across Syracuse University’s 13 schools and colleges, you’ll find infinite ways to make real-world impact.

It's got to be easier to attract players when there are more majors and some may not be as demanding on the academic front. While all schools offer assistance via their athletic departments, I suspect that things aren't the same everywhere. Right, Loserville?

And at UNC, they just say "don't worry about it".

 

[orangefog]

Exactly. And, everything in life is relative. So, just as we had to leave the Big East for football to "competitively" survive a decade ago, who the hell are we to say to Clemson it's not the same deal and that it's greed vs. survival. Especially, based upon where things are clear as day headed in the decade to come.

As a Syracuse fan, I reserve the right to be unreasonably hypocritical on this and all matters.

 

[DustyMoore]

Fair points.

I’m not sure what the right thing to do is for Clemson. The truth is we’re seeing what happens when there is no leadership at the very top looking out for the sport itself.

The SEC and B1G getting in a room together was a good step. Then choosing to try to rig the playoff selection process to hard wire success is an example of the selfish anti-competitive place this is all headed. It’s a bad idea that will kill viewership. (“But we’ll get more helmet games with giant fanbases” will work for a bit until people realize how gamed the system is.)

Instead of building up fanbases in areas where the sport has struggled recently, the current reality strangles the life out of them and leaves them vulnerable. Do the lessons Clemson used to build its empire get shared with its conference brethren?

I echo your sentiments Sir… none of this is good for the game. And while I will defend the university, I don’t know what the right move for Clemson is either.

Not only have these realignments impacted football but thinking of how much more strain these long distancetravel requirements will place on all of the other sports, which play much more games.

The NCAA has set by and instead of focusing on how to drive a positive solution, they were nitpicking on which athlete got an extra hamburger on a team trip.

ESPN and Fox have largely gotten a pass their dollars have driven this behavior.

As far as the lessons to build the empire, Dabo has always been very open with other coaches and their staffs visiting the program to gain lessons learned. This was a habit that he picked up from Mac Brown who let Clemson visit Texas for nearly a week early in Dabo’s coaching career. I don’t know how receptive other conference rivals were with going down there as I don’t really advertise the visitors but we get a heads up on our insider network. I know the Wake staff and Pitt have visited.

Nothing fun about any of this from my seat.

 

[DustyMoore]

I was not alluding to TV ratings. I was alluding to influence within your conference because you told us that you were tired of decisions being predicated on hoops (which was a fair accusation made toward the ACC in about 2004).

And for a guy who (a few posts ago) was exposing the virtues of cultural alignment with FSU, I simply cannot wait for you to tell me about the multitude of similarities that I don't see between Clemson and B10 steadies like Minnesota, Oregon and Purdue.

Dusty ... you just don't know how good you have it. Not that the ACC is without flaw (it is certainly not), but what you're pining for is not going to serve your school well in the long term. The money gap between Clemson and the SEC has not held you back the last 15 years. And there is no reason it has to in the future.

The allure of sporadic matchups with Michigan, Ohio State and USC will wear off in a surprisingly short amount of time. And you'll be left wanting for the old days, when you could drive to a road game at NC State or Tech. You don't want 20 hours of travel (round trip) to go to Eugene, Oregon. You don't want to watch your Tigers play on Dec. 2nd in Minneapolis in a 31F freezing rain. The extra millions is not worth it for a quality university like Clemson that should practice aspirational economics as opposed to simple money grabs, logistics be damned. Your school has NOTHING in common with the (dying) upper midwest, ... for Clemson is neither upper, nor midwestern.

Syracuse left the Big East and it has never been quite the same. We had to in order to keep competitive football (the Big East was on its death bed). Our difficult decision was made with survival in mind. Yours is not. Yet the consequences of such an ill-fated decision will resonate for decades and change the very fabric of who Clemson is and what it represents.

SU94 I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said.. we have little to nothing in common with any of the schools in the BIG.

I know a matchup with an Ohio State and a Michigan from time to time would be exciting, but our fanbase is not going to enjoy playing 90% of the conference. I find it hard to believe that would change over time.

Our fan base was actually excited when Syracuse and Pitt came into the fold because those would offer the occasional opportunities to venture up the eastern seaboard and enjoy new experiences is still relatively close places to visit every other year or so.

I personally have found the fan bases of Ohio State in Michigan to be quite obnoxious… I’ve had the complete opposite experience with Syracuse fans.

Everyone’s afraid to be left out and it’s going to become a regional sport as a result.

 

[DustyMoore]

Those charts reinforce that a lot of schools in conferences are outliers, including quite a bit of the Big 10. If it's really about everyone getting what they deserve, half the Big 10 should get a lower distribution too. That's why I think this giant game will leave some schools very disappointed despite the conference they currently sit in.

Nobody is safe except for the top 15-20 programs. And brand value / subscribers will ultimately matter the most, which favors large universities.

I was shocked when I saw that same graphic… the conference gets more credit than they deserve when in reality, there are effectively three outliers.

 

[DustyMoore]

"Cuss"? Really?

----

One thing that people don't realize is that GA Tech only offers a limited number of majors.
Georgia Tech offers 35 undergraduate degrees from its six colleges: Business, Computing, Design, Engineering, Liberal Arts, and Sciences. They also have a high acceptance criteria.

There were 16 football player graduates in 2020. 11 majored in business administration, 2 obtained their master's degrees, 2 received engineering degrees and 1 obtained a degree in literature, media and communication.

When I attended my son's introductory meeting for GA Tech's business school, I was suprised to see a number of potential students who had the physique of football players and sat together in the back of the venue.

Meanwhile, at Syracuse University:
With over 200 majors, 100 minors, more than 200 advanced degree programs and hundreds of top researchers and scholars across Syracuse University’s 13 schools and colleges, you’ll find infinite ways to make real-world impact.

It's got to be easier to attract players when there are more majors and some may not be as demanding on the academic front. While all schools offer assistance via their athletic departments, I suspect that things aren't the same everywhere. Right, Loserville?

Haha… apologies on the “Cuss” A product of multitasking while also doing voice to text. Siri does not always pick up the southern draw well.

Your spot on regarding the number of majors in which Georgia Tech offers. While I certainly would not suggest a school go against the fabric of their academic standing I don’t think opening up one course of study less Demanding for athletes would be the downfall of entire institution.

I hail from a Clemson family however, I attended The Citadel… The bulk of our Corps of Cadets are either engineers or finance majors. Yet in effort to increase opportunities for a more diverse student body we had to open up additional courses of study. We now offer opportunities in education and nursing. The college had to adjust.

 

[DustyMoore]

And at UNC, they just say "don't worry about it".

You get an A, you get an A… everybody gets an A!!!

If it wasn’t so sad what they got away with it would be laughable

 

[baggerbob]

You get an A, you get an A… everybody gets an A!!!

If it wasn’t so sad what they got away with it would be laughable

Unfortunately everything goes back to Swofford, taking care of his son. He never should have been Commissioner, as we found out he was AD at North Carolina during most of the time of the fake courses.

 

[Hoo's That]

"Cuss"? Really?

----

One thing that people don't realize is that GA Tech only offers a limited number of majors.
Georgia Tech offers 35 undergraduate degrees from its six colleges: Business, Computing, Design, Engineering, Liberal Arts, and Sciences. They also have a high acceptance criteria.

There were 16 football player graduates in 2020. 11 majored in business administration, 2 obtained their master's degrees, 2 received engineering degrees and 1 obtained a degree in literature, media and communication.

When I attended my son's introductory meeting for GA Tech's business school, I was suprised to see a number of potential students who had the physique of football players and sat together in the back of the venue.

Meanwhile, at Syracuse University:
With over 200 majors, 100 minors, more than 200 advanced degree programs and hundreds of top researchers and scholars across Syracuse University’s 13 schools and colleges, you’ll find infinite ways to make real-world impact.

It's got to be easier to attract players when there are more majors and some may not be as demanding on the academic front. While all schools offer assistance via their athletic departments, I suspect that things aren't the same everywhere. Right, Loserville?

The biggest handicap for GA Tech is that regardless of your major, you must pass Calc I and II to graduate.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think Notre Dame still wanting to be Indy in FB will be good for the long term prospects of the ACC. I think schools like BC, SU, Pitt, Duke, Wake, GA Tech, SMU, Stanford, Cal, and maybe Miami and NC State would prefer staying together vs joining the B12. And ND will certainly be trying to push this to happen.

Then you have replacement candidates like UConn, Temple, JMU, USF, FAU, Tulane, Rice, WSU, Oregon State, and MWC teams to fill in any gaps. At that point a nice 16 team conference consisting of 4 Northeastern teams, 4 Southern Atlantic teams, 4 Southern Gulf teams, and 4 Western teams, along with Notre Dame would fit best.

BC, UConn, SU, Pitt
JMU, Duke, Wake, GA Tech
USF, Tulane, SMU, next best fit
Stanford, Cal, next best fits

That will still be the 4th best FB conference and will be a power conference in BBall.

 

[kcsu]

I think Notre Dame still wanting to be Indy in FB will be good for the long term prospects of the ACC. I think schools like BC, SU, Pitt, Duke, Wake, GA Tech, SMU, Stanford, Cal, and maybe Miami and NC State would prefer staying together vs joining the B12. And ND will certainly be trying to push this to happen.

Then you have replacement candidates like UConn, Temple, JMU, USF, FAU, Tulane, Rice, WSU, Oregon State, and MWC teams to fill in any gaps. At that point a nice 16 team conference consisting of 4 Northeastern teams, 4 Southern Atlantic teams, 4 Southern Gulf teams, and 4 Western teams, along with Notre Dame would fit best.

BC, UConn, SU, Pitt
JMU, Duke, Wake, GA Tech
USF, Tulane, SMU, next best fit
Stanford, Cal, next best fits

That will still be the 4th best FB conference and will be a power conference in BBall.

Good post. I agree that ND loves having all of their schools in the ACC for sports. Of course, we want them for football as well but the agreement with the ACC for football is solid and provides some great match ups.

Assuming two schools leave I would vote for Tulane and another Florida school. Once the Big 12 contract is up the ACC will be in great position to fill any additional gaps that pop up in the future. Syracuse is most likely going to end up staying in the ACC and the ACC is going to be in third position when it comes to revenue. SU will be competitive within our conference and have a punchers chance to make the dance every year based on the early results from Fran and his staff. The ACC is a great fit for SU.

 

[elimunelson]

Good post. I agree that ND loves having all of their schools in the ACC for sports. Of course, we want them for football as well but the agreement with the ACC for football is solid and provides some great match ups.

Assuming two schools leave I would vote for Tulane and another Florida school. Once the Big 12 contract is up the ACC will be in great position to fill any additional gaps that pop up in the future. Syracuse is most likely going to end up staying in the ACC and the ACC is going to be in third position when it comes to revenue. SU will be competitive within our conference and have a punchers chance to make the dance every year based on the early results from Fran and his staff. The ACC is a great fit for SU.

Time for UConn. We need to think smart here not petulant.

UConn comes and brings the Catholic hoops only in some sort of modified confederation where we get our cake and eat it too

A quasi ACC for hoops w the leftovers
A new big east w our old friends
Combo pupu for football

 

[orangemass]

Syracuse Pitt and bc will have to remain loyal to each other.

 

[kcsu]

Time for UConn. We need to think smart here not petulant.

UConn comes and brings the Catholic hoops only in some sort of modified confederation where we get our cake and eat it too

A quasi ACC for hoops w the leftovers
A new big east w our old friends
Combo pupu for football

I see your point but what we need are good football schools in large metros that have eye balls. If we need to add more than two teams and if we add another eastern school UConn would be my choice. I still think that we will need to fill the Florida void with one of the larger Florida schools. The bulls would get my vote.

Tulane, San Diego state, are my next two choices. Both are good schools with solid programs and bring large metros that are accretive to the current acc mix.

 

[Toga]

Time for UConn. We need to think smart here not petulant.

UConn comes and brings the Catholic hoops only in some sort of modified confederation where we get our cake and eat it too

A quasi ACC for hoops w the leftovers
A new big east w our old friends
Combo pupu for football

I remain petulant.

 

[HouClone]

I see your point but what we need are good football schools in large metros that have eye balls. If we need to add more than two teams and if we add another eastern school UConn would be my choice. I still think that we will need to fill the Florida void with one of the larger Florida schools. The bulls would get my vote.

Tulane, San Diego state, are my next two choices. Both are good schools with solid programs and bring large metros that are accretive to the current acc mix.

The travel aspect can't be ignored. It is a huge drain on expenses and on the athletes. Stanford and Cal are tapping into their endowments to make it work. They are doing it as a necessary stop gap as they try to get into the Big 10. San Diego State can't pull it off. They won't be getting Big 10 money.

UConn and USF are prime for expansion.

 

[longtimefan]

Time for UConn. We need to think smart here not petulant.

UConn comes and brings the Catholic hoops only in some sort of modified confederation where we get our cake and eat it too

A quasi ACC for hoops w the leftovers
A new big east w our old friends
Combo pupu for football

Pass.

And you misspelled "pupu". It's "poopoo".

 

[tep624]

Time for UConn. We need to think smart here not petulant.

UConn comes and brings the Catholic hoops only in some sort of modified confederation where we get our cake and eat it too

A quasi ACC for hoops w the leftovers
A new big east w our old friends
Combo pupu for football

Why would we want to add another Northeast mouth to feed? I’ll never understand this position. Unless you want to just concede that the conference will be a basketball first conference moving forward.

 

[GHLF]

Syracuse Pitt and bc will have to remain loyal to each other.

Just like WVU was loyal to the BE Conference

 

[kcsu]

The travel aspect can't be ignored. It is a huge drain on expenses and on the athletes. Stanford and Cal are tapping into their endowments to make it work. They are doing it as a necessary stop gap as they try to get into the Big 10. San Diego State can't pull it off. They won't be getting Big 10 money.

UConn and USF are prime for expansion.

Wrong. They signed the GOR. They weren't a take a year ago They won't be a Big take in the future

 

[TexanMark]

Why would we want to add another Northeast mouth to feed? I’ll never understand this position. Unless you want to just concede that the conference will be a basketball first conference moving forward.

I'd offer Yukon membership in all sports but FB. We give them 4 football games (home and home) a year. Basically keep them in reserve.