Great look at SU's substitution pattern by Luke Winn

[BlackSquirrels]

One of the recurring questions I've seen posted so far this season is some variation of, "Why doesn't Waiters start?"

On his radio show, Boeheim has said it doesn't matter because Waiters would play the same number of minutes as a starter.

Luke Winn of si.com has another possible answer.

Basically, Waiters enters the game at times when the opponents are playing reserves. This allows Waiters to get rolling against a team's weaker players.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

One of the recurring questions I've seen posted so far this season is some variation of, "Why doesn't Waiters start?"

On his radio show, Boeheim has said it doesn't matter because Waiters would play the same number of minutes as a starter.

Luke Winn of si.com has another possible answer.

Basically, Waiters enters the game at times when the opponents are playing reserves. This allows Waiters to get rolling against a team's weaker players.

Solid. Luke Winn does a really good job on these. Probably the most thoughtful rankings of anyone out there, and I feel like he also does a good job of leveraging creative media to make his cases.

 

[SoBristol]

So, our opponents will counter by holding out their best guys to counter when Dion, CJ and James enter the game?

The sub pattern is not a deliberate effort by JB to match up his best guys with subs; it tends to work out that way because he has other reasons for starting Christmas and Triche; and because 3 of our bench guys are just better than starters for the teams we have been playing.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

It's simply JB's means of not capitulating to Dion's ego/attitude/character/personality issues. He subs players retributively. He determines the starting lineups the same way. That's why the 'high character' guys like Triche and Forth are seemingly guaranteed to start.

 

[NKR1978]

It's simply JB's means of not capitulating to Dion's ego/attitude/character/personality issues. He subs players retributively. He determines the starting lineups the same way. That's why the 'high character' guys like Triche and Forth are seemingly guaranteed to start.

Who should have started at center over forth?

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[TexanMark]

Who should have started at center over forth?

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Billy Celuck but we all instinctively knew he was out during curfew playing with the drop dead gorgeous Cuse Coeds.

 

[stuckinbig11]

If I had nothing better to do, I could probably manipulate the stats to "prove" any contention I wanted to make--that is the great thing about statistics. However, I think JB plays his guards as he does to attain different combinations of strengths, to exploit specific match-ups, to go with who is playing well, and (lately) to give MCW some experience.

 

[GoSU96]

It's simply JB's means of not capitulating to Dion's ego/attitude/character/personality issues. He subs players retributively. He determines the starting lineups the same way. That's why the 'high character' guys like Triche and Forth are seemingly guaranteed to start.

Whatever the motivation, it seems to work for him.

 

[arbitragegls]

...and I am not convinced that Waiters, all around game, is better than Triche's...

 

[SoBristol]

If I had nothing better to do, I could probably manipulate the stats to "prove" any contention I wanted to make--that is the great thing about statistics. However, I think JB plays his guards as he does to attain different combinations of strengths, to exploit specific match-ups, to go with who is playing well, and (lately) to give MCW some experience.

I suspect some of it is inertia (Scoop and Triche are returning starters; no reason to upset any egos); some to test different combinations in game situations; and some to advance MCW's development.
JB does not get credit for developing bench guys -- usually he does not deserve any credit. This year is the exception. He is limiting minutes for his starters, and giving each of the bench guys lots of opportunities. He seems uncharacteristically calm on the sidelines, knowing his bench guys can compete with our OOC opponents.
Let's see how that continues now that we are into the tougher part of the schedule. If he continues to play 10, the old mold (7.0) is definitely broken.

 

[SoBristol]

...and I am not convinced that Waiters, all around game, is better than Triche's...

You might be one of the few hold-outs.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

It's simply JB's means of not capitulating to Dion's ego/attitude/character/personality issues. He subs players retributively. He determines the starting lineups the same way. That's why the 'high character' guys like Triche and Forth are seemingly guaranteed to start.

so why didn't guys like Sims, Spera, H. Triche, start from day one. They are high character guys.

 

[SkanSU]

... and to keep his starters and bench as healthy as possible going into the BE and NC

 

[orangefan13]

We bring one of our top two isolation dribblers off the bench in Dion. And we have three above good isolation dribblers.

Our second best outside shooting forward off the bench in James.

Probably our second best paint/midrange post up scorer in CJ. Two of our top three offensive rebounders in CJ and Keita off the bench as well. Fair is a guy who also scores tough positioned baskets when the scoreboard brings pressure.

Point is, we bring lots of balence off the bench. Not just 3 shooters or three dribbling penetrators without jumpers.

 

[jdubs30]

...and I am not convinced that Waiters, all around game, is better than Triche's...

I think Triche has a better skill set overall. But Dion's attitude and aggressive might put him over the edge. If you put Waiters aggressiveness in Triches body, we'd have a no doubt All-American.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Triche has a better skill set overall. But Dion's attitude and aggressive might put him over the edge. If you put Waiters aggressiveness in Triches body, we'd have a no doubt All-American.

I really don't see all the Triche love.

I don't think he is bad, but you have Jay Bilas saying he could/should be our best player. I don't see it. I think he is a good player, don't get me wrong, but I don't see a guy with all this untapped potential. It isn't like he is a ridiculously efficient scorer or something like that.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Who should have started at center over forth?

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Mookie Watkins was better than Forth during Forth's senior (and Mookie's sophomore) season. Forth regressed his last year.

 

[Cuseman78]

I really don't see all the Triche love.

I don't think he is bad, but you have Jay Bilas saying he could/should be our best player. I don't see it. I think he is a good player, don't get me wrong, but I don't see a guy with all this untapped potential. It isn't like he is a ridiculously efficient scorer or something like that.

I'm with you -- I don't get it at all. My sense is that he's probably a tad overhyped because he's a hometown boy. Don't get me wrong, he's a nice player (and I'm glad we have him). But he's not Dion Waiters.

 

[pfister1]

...and I am not convinced that Waiters, all around game, is better than Triche's...

Maybeso, but I am absolutely convinced that we'll see Waiter's better all around game more frequently than we'll see Triche's.

 

[jdubs30]

I really don't see all the Triche love.

I don't think he is bad, but you have Jay Bilas saying he could/should be our best player. I don't see it. I think he is a good player, don't get me wrong, but I don't see a guy with all this untapped potential. It isn't like he is a ridiculously efficient scorer or something like that.

Triche is probably the best "built" guard in the country, he looks like he might be the strongest guard in America. I still think he is hte best jump shooter on our team, he has great handle, he's typically a tremendous finisher in the lane, he's a solid passer, his decision making is questionable at times, but is probably better than Scoop and Dion's. The problem is he isn't aggressive at all, and doesn't look for his own shot too often. Could you imagine him trying to post up Shabazz Napier or guards like that? He would be unstoppable, yet he tends to float around the perimeter and settle for jump shots (albeit he's got a good stroke). He plays like he's 6'1 170. He no doubt has the best overall skill set on our team (including his size of course), but he doesn't utilize it nearly enough.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I really don't see all the Triche love.

I don't think he is bad, but you have Jay Bilas saying he could/should be our best player. I don't see it. I think he is a good player, don't get me wrong, but I don't see a guy with all this untapped potential. It isn't like he is a ridiculously efficient scorer or something like that.

All 3 of our guards have strengths and weaknesses and I'm glad we have them all and they all play almost identical minutes. If one of the 3 is your favorite guy you can point to a stat that reflects it.

As for Triche vs Waiters : PPG = Waiters, APG = Triche, SPG = Waiters, FG % = Waiters, 3% = Triche, FT% = Triche

We should probably just enjoy having them both since they're both pretty good players.

 

[General20]

People seem to take it as law that the best players should start. I would ask this question, why should the best players start? I honestly can't think of one good reason. Players are substituted throughout the game and nobody thinks twice. Why should the start be any different?

 

[BlackSquirrels]

People seem to take it as law that the best players should start. I would ask this question, why should the best players start? I honestly can't think of one good reason. Players are substituted throughout the game and nobody thinks twice. Why should the start be any different?

The more I watch basketball, the more I wonder the same thing.

One example of the lack of necessity of having the five best players start is the Dallas Mavericks. I can think of two example from last year's playoffs.

1. I think they switched up their starting lineup during the Finals last year when they inserted Barea to get more scoring in the first unit. Surely Rick Carlisle didn't all of the sudden decide Barea was one of his top five players after about 100 games.

2. Their preferred finishing lineup was Kidd/Terry/Marion/Nowitzki/Chandler. Terry only started 10 of 82 regular season games and zero playoff games.

I think the concept of determining the five best players for a team's starting lineup is a good topic for fans to discuss on talk radio and message boards, but coaches don't care about it nearly as much.

 

[Knicks411]

I agree Brandon is built like a tank, and I agree he is passive at times, probably too much so. But he just hasn't shot the ball that well overall the last 2 years; I'm not sure more shots would lead to a better %. Though I would like to see him drive more, but it's possible part of the reason he doesn't drive a lot is because he doesn't have a lot of quickness?

Not trying to hate on him, he is a perfectly solid college guard. But I don't see a whole lot of untapped potential is all.

 

[Knicks411]

On the lineup thing; agreed the 5 best don't have to start, there are definitely teams in the NBA who may bring a good offensive player off the bench to anchor the second unit, because the second unit doesn't often have a lot of scoring on it. (Biggest example of this would probably either be Terry, as mentioned above, or James Harden with the Thunder. I think he may be starting now.)

I was going to say as long as your best guys get the most minutes, that's the most important thign, but I think I would rephrase it to as long as your best units get the most minutes.