interesting cooney stat | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

interesting cooney stat

Brooky03 said:
Cooney does have the worst % of those ACC guys but it's still a good percentage. At 34.5%, you're still a guy who should shoot a 3 anytimethere is a sliver of opportunity. There's a little more that goes into it, but the numbers are in your favor and the team's favor.
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As was mentioned before, 34.5% includes 39% against non-conference teams. Haven't looked but I'd guess most of those on the list had a much more even distribution between conference and non-conference. Just guessing but 10% is extremely high variance. Don't mean to be annoying by replying to your posts only but just providing a counter point. Not sure Cooney should shoot every time there's a "sliver" of opportunity. He should shoot when it's a good shot, as should all shooters not named Stephon Curry.
 
SUFan44 said:
I would say that being the PG and having to facilitate, while also keeping your shooting averages up, is more difficult to do.

Agreed he would benefit from a better PG, but I think he'd also benefit from not taking so many ill-advised shots.
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I agree it's more difficult to handle both duties, but GMac was more skilled. My point is that GMac could get a 3 literally whenever he wanted by virtue of being the PG. Cooney can't do that and doesn't have PG skills. Since we're primarily talking about just shooting, not what makes a complete player, Cooney is disadvantaged in that he's not a PG or combo guard and hasn't played next to a true PG the last two seasons.


edit: He also doesn't take as many ill-advised shots as advertised. Not nearly as many, imo. I think Cooney will end his career with a percentage near Gerry's mark and Gerry's most ridiculous shot attempts were at least twice as ridiculous as Cooney's worst.
 
rrlbees said:
It's 1.5 per game over a career.
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The limits were also set at 2 made 3's per game, fwiw. And obviously that's a pretty high standard to clear.

Brooky03 said:
Cooney does have the worst % of those ACC guys but it's still a good percentage. At 34.5%, you're still a guy who should shoot a 3 anytime there is a sliver of opportunity. There's a little more that goes into it, but the numbers are in your favor and the team's favor.
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Point taken but I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. That 34.5% includes wide open looks, contested looks, etc. It's not like he's shooting 35% on contested 3's or anything, he isnt Steph Curry.
 
Brooky03 said:
I agree it's more difficult to handle both duties, but GMac was more skilled. My point is that GMac could get a 3 literally whenever he wanted by virtue of being the PG. Cooney can't do that and doesn't have PG skills. Since we're primarily talking about just shooting, not what makes a complete player, Cooney is disadvantaged in that he's not a PG or combo guard and hasn't played next to a true PG the last two seasons.


edit: He also doesn't take as many ill-advised shots as advertised. Not nearly as many, imo. I think Cooney will end his career with a percentage near Gerry's mark and Gerry's most ridiculous shot attempts were at least twice as ridiculous as Cooney's worst.
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I think playing without a PG definitely hurts him, but I don't think not playing PG hurts his %. It probably helps it. I obviously don't have the numbers but I'd wager Trevor has taken a lot m ore of his 3's in catch and shoot situations as compared to Gerry.
 
Knicks411 said:
The limits were also set at 2 made 3's per game, fwiw. And obviously that's a pretty high standard to clear.



Point taken but I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. That 34.5% includes wide open looks, contested looks, etc. It's not like he's shooting 35% on contested 3's or anything, he isnt Steph Curry.
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That's the 'little more that goes into it' haha. In seriousness, he shouldn't be jacking up fadeaways, but any attempt where his feet are set is a pretty good attempt at that overall 3pt percentage.
 
Gerry was the primary ball handler after Edelin was gone. That is huge. He is responsible for getting the bigs their touches, breaking down presses, and running the offense.

Gerry took some bad shots but c'mon comparing Cooney to him is nuts. Gerry was a combo guard, Cooney is strictly a two guard.

I feel bad for Cooney if the program had more options who could play he wouldn't be tasked with 38-39 mpg but because he doesn't the guy isn't an efficient player. He is a role player who is being asked to be more.
 
Knicks411 said:
I think playing without a PG definitely hurts him, but I don't think not playing PG hurts his %. It probably helps it. I obviously don't have the numbers but I'd wager Trevor has taken a lot m ore of his 3's in catch and shoot situations as compared to Gerry.
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I think I'm not stating my point very well. Gerry was basically a good PG and good SG rolled into one dude. He was a Tyler Ennis-Trevor Cooney combo if you will (not necessarily a great comparison, but you get the idea). Gerry could get himself open with his dribble, Cooney can't. Gerry could call a play for himself and manipulate the offense to get the shot he wanted because he was a good PG. Cooney is no floor general and can't really do that consistently. KJ wasn't helping him get good shots either.
 
Alsacs said:
Gerry was the primary ball handler after Edelin was gone. That is huge. He is responsible for getting the bigs their touches, breaking down presses, and running the offense.

Gerry took some bad shots but c'mon comparing Cooney to him is nuts. Gerry was a combo guard, Cooney is strictly a two guard.

I feel bad for Cooney if the program had more options who could play he wouldn't be tasked with 38-39 mpg but because he doesn't the guy isn't an efficient player. He is a role player who is being asked to be more.
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Agreed, Gerry was a combo guard. That's what I've been saying.

As for the bad shots, Gerry would take two steps over halfcourt with a guy punching him in the kidney and still put the shot up where Cooney leans to the left sometimes coming off screens. The big difference is that Gerry would make that shot.
 
Brooky03 said:
I think I'm not stating my point very well. Gerry was basically a good PG and good SG rolled into one dude. He was a Tyler Ennis-Trevor Cooney combo if you will (not necessarily a great comparison, but you get the idea). Gerry could get himself open with his dribble, Cooney can't. Gerry could call a play for himself and manipulate the offense to get the shot he wanted because he was a good PG. Cooney is no floor general and can't really do that consistently. KJ wasn't helping him get good shots either.
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I guess it just seems like your point is "Trevor is disadvantaged because he isn't as good" which ok but is that an argument in his favor?

Anyway I agree if he had a better PG he'd shoot a better percentage. So far his best 3pt% was the year he played with Tyler, which makes sense. But I think if he did have better ball handle and played PG, that would actually hurt his shooting %.
 
Knicks411 said:
I guess it just seems like your point is "Trevor is disadvantaged because he isn't as good" which ok but is that an argument in his favor?

Anyway I agree if he had a better PG he'd shoot a better percentage. So far his best 3pt% was the year he played with Tyler, which makes sense. But I think if he did have better ball handle and played PG, that would actually hurt his shooting %.
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Trevor Cooney is disadvantaged as a shooter because he isn't good at doing things on the offensive end other than shooting. Gerry and Andy were more complete players and benefited from that.

Is that better? It's not an argument in his favor in terms of being a complete basketball player, but it provides context for his shooting numbers. Pair him with a good PG and you have a 37% shooter. Pair him with a bad PG and he's a 31% shooter.


edit: Genetically enhance him to be a combo guard or pair him with a serviceable PG and he'd split the difference.
 
Brooky03 said:
Trevor Cooney is disadvantaged as a shooter because he isn't good at doing things on the offensive end other than shooting. Gerry and Andy were more complete players and benefited from that.

Is that better? It's not an argument in his favor in terms of being a complete basketball player, but it provides context for his shooting numbers. Pair him with a good PG and you have a 37% shooter. Pair him with a bad PG and he's a 31% shooter.


edit: Genetically enhance him to be a combo guard or pair him with a serviceable PG and he'd split the difference.
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I'm totally with you on the PG thing. Everyone will look better playign with a good PG.

Would be interesting to just put Trevor, Gerry, Andy, whoever else you want to talk about, in a gym and just let them shoot and see who is better.
 
Alsacs said:
Fair enough don't need an exact ranking. I forget Kaleb as well. I would have no qualm anyway you wanted to evaluate. I had Cooney above Wright and Mookie. I would include Kaleb as well though I forget him.
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You're all over the board on this. I responded to your statement that Cooney is our worst guard since Wright. That is patently false. Then you limit it to guards who have played significant minutes which I would put Wright in that bucket. Guy got some run as a junior even starting some. But he didn't play a lot in his career. Cooney in one season gets almost as many minutes. So if you're going to include Wright and Jones and players like that then Cooneys been better than a lot of guards since Wright. If you want to say he's not as good as guys like MCW, Triche, Ennis, Waiters etc, guys who played key roles and mins in their careers regardless of years stayed, then yea I think that would be true.
 
rrlbees said:
You're all over the board on this. I responded to your statement that Cooney is our worst guard since Wright. That is patently false. Then you limit it to guards who have played significant minutes which I would put Wright in that bucket. Guy got some run as a junior even starting some. But he didn't play a lot in his career. Cooney in one season gets almost as many minutes. So if you're going to include Wright and Jones and players like that then Cooneys been better than a lot of guards since Wright. If you want to say he's not as good as guys like MCW, Triche, Ennis, Waiters etc, guys who played key roles and mins in their careers regardless of years stayed, then yea I think that would be true.
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maybe the player i would compare him to is mike hopkins. scrappy but forgettable.
 
rrlbees said:
You're all over the board on this. I responded to your statement that Cooney is our worst guard since Wright. That is patently false. Then you limit it to guards who have played significant minutes which I would put Wright in that bucket. Guy got some run as a junior even starting some. But he didn't play a lot in his career. Cooney in one season gets almost as many minutes. So if you're going to include Wright and Jones and players like that then Cooneys been better than a lot of guards since Wright. If you want to say he's not as good as guys like MCW, Triche, Ennis, Waiters etc, guys who played key roles and mins in their careers regardless of years stayed, then yea I think that would be true.
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I said worst since Wright so I didn't forget him. I guess I was wrong because I forgot Kaleb from last year I guess I can amend it to 2nd worst if that makes you feel so much better. Again I take no bleeping pleasure in this debate I just call it for what it is. Mookie never got the minutes to prove who is better thus I feel it is inconclusive who is better. Maybe Mookie is better as well I don't know. However, I said worst guard since Wright I was wrong it was 2nd or 3rd.

I take no enjoyment I feel bad for the kid. He plays hard but when you get the minutes of a superstar you get more attention positive and negative. Two years ago I feel the downfall of that team was we didn't have a second guard who could play well with Ennis during the tournament.
 
Alsacs said:
I said worst since Wright so I didn't forget him. I guess I was wrong because I forgot Kaleb from last year I guess I can amend it to 2nd worst if that makes you feel so much better. Again I take no bleeping pleasure in this debate I just call it for what it is. Mookie never got the minutes to prove who is better thus I feel it is inconclusive who is better. Maybe Mookie is better as well I don't know. However, I said worst guard since Wright I was wrong it was 2nd or 3rd. I take no enjoyment I feel bad for the kid. He plays hard but when you get the minutes of a superstar you get more attention positive and negative. Two years ago I feel the downfall of that team was we didn't have a second guard who could play well with Ennis during the tournament.
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My word would should have been wouldn't. When you said worst guard since wright, I'm including every guard. So that statement you made is false. If you're now moving the goalposts and saying something else then I don't include wright since he wasn't a player each year here.
 
Brooky03 said:
He shoots better against worse teams. Is this surprising. Wouldn't this be expected of most players?
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I think it's highlighting the size of the drop off - and for a pure shooter, if that's more or less your only "go to" skill makes it more substantial.

G, for example, performed much better in the ACC last year than in the non-conference schedule. This year, kind of the opposite so far though.

Rak was pretty static, improved rebounding, slight drop in FG%.
 
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