JG3 on third team AND what we will need for next year

[djcon57]

They only play a little. But joes metrics in m2m are better than last year. And better than JJ’s. Joes overall BPM is better than anyone on SU except Brown who he’s tied with. And I say that as someone who still thinks DBPM is garbage.

Honest question…do you know what metrics are? Because you say stuff like “his metrics are better than JJ” yet there are multiple metrics than have JJ ahead of Joe other than DBPM.

You are pointing to one “metric”. DBPM.
Joe’s steal percentage is 1.1, JJ’s is 1.5
Joe’s Defensive Win Shares is 0.5, JJ’s is 0.7
JJ’s DBPR is higher than Joe’s.

hope that helps

 

[djcon57]

And for those who monitor minutes played, JJ has the worse BPM on the team except for Cuffe and yet he leads the ACC in minutes played and is 2nd in MPG.

Yeah, we've had multiple posts on here calling out JJ's mins. Makes no sense.

 

[IthacaMatt]

OK, and he's the 9th worst d-rating (more than 150 minutes played) in the ACC just ahead of Chase Hunter, Chauncey Wiggins and most of Louisville. At the end of the Miami game where they were getting thumped in the 2nd half Brownell was pulling him during defensive possessions.

View attachment 236176

I'm happy Joe is in a system where he can finally shine offensively, but let's not pretend he's something he's not. Put him on this SU team and his offense wouldn't be nearly as good and he'd be the team's worst defender by far because SU actually is playing pretty good team defense (more or less tied for 4th in the conference).

And his defense is that poor despite losing 15 pounds.

Like I said before, we miss his shot, but not his shot selection, his passing or his defense.

 

[Cuseball]

Because he’s hurt.

Exactly and I will add... Joe got tons of criticism here. Some warranted and some way overboard considering the guy gave everything he had for 4 years at SU. There were silly comments about how Joe can't play at this level, how Joe should only get 15 a game etc. Well, he's actually playing 30 a game for a top 20 team and we miss him.

People view Joe differently because Joe didn't chase the $ like Jesse. He had the discussion with Autry and the best decision was made for both SU and for him. At least for this year, the decision has worked out better for him.

Cuse!

 

[djcon57]

Exactly and I will add... Joe got tons of criticism here. Some warranted and some way overboard considering the guy gave everything he had for 4 years at SU. There were silly comments about how Joe can't play at this level, how Joe should only get 15 a game etc. Well, he's actually playing 30 a game for a top 20 team and we miss him.

People view Joe differently because Joe didn't chase the $ like Jesse. He had the discussion with Autry and the best decision was made for both SU and for him. At least for this year, the decision has worked out better for him.

Cuse!

Jesse didn't give everything he had for 4 years? And we're mad at him about $$? Ok.

Again...reasons.

Also, before Jesse was hurt Joe still got 10x more discussion and talking points in game threads, etc. Anyone with eyes and that can read can agree to that.

 

[Cuseball]

Jesse didn't give everything he had for 4 years? And we're mad at him about $$? Ok.

Again...reasons.

Also, before Jesse was hurt Joe still got 10x more discussion and talking points in game threads, etc. Anyone with eyes and that can read can agree to that.

Reasons? Seems like you might have some not so hidden agenda here

Why can't everyone just admit. The exchange of Joe for JJ is one side in favor of Joe at this point. At the same time, JJ has two more years to develop and that certainly matters for the long term. I can only speak for myself but I hold Joe in higher regard than Jesse. Joe would have stayed but was de prioritized. Therefore, he sought out a new home. You may think it's the same but I don't

Cuse

 

[djcon57]

Reasons? Seems like you might have some not so hidden agenda here

Why can't everyone just admit. The exchange of Joe for JJ is one side in favor of Joe at this point. At the same time, JJ has two more years to develop and that certainly matters for the long term. I can only speak for myself but I hold Joe in higher regard than Jesse. Joe would have stayed but was de prioritized. Therefore, he sought out a new home. You may think it's the same but I don't

Cuse

I have to admit to something I don't agree with and I'm the one with an agenda?

 

[rrlbees]

Honest question…do you know what metrics are? Because you say stuff like “his metrics are better than JJ” yet there are multiple metrics than have JJ ahead of Joe other than DBPM.

You are pointing to one “metric”. DBPM.
Joe’s steal percentage is 1.1, JJ’s is 1.5
Joe’s Defensive Win Shares is 0.5, JJ’s is 0.7
JJ’s DBPR is higher than Joe’s.

hope that helps

Joes DBPM is 1.4 JJ is .2

 

[Cstate]

Why can't everyone just admit. The exchange of Joe for JJ is one side in favor of Joe at this point. At the same time, JJ has two more years to develop and that certainly matters for the long term. I can only speak for myself but I hold Joe in higher regard than Jesse. Joe would have stayed but was de prioritized. Therefore, he sought out a new home. You may think it's the same but I don't

Cuse

Because roughly 97% of this board would have to swallow their pride and that’s a hard thing to do. When Joe hit the portal and we grabbed JJ…..the entire summer was filled with “We got a 5 star!! Now we have the Best backcourt in the ACC/Country! Joe should go to Siena, good riddance.”

 

[Fly Rodder]

Not sure how defensive rating ties to Defensive Box Plus Minus, but we have a bunch of guys with significantly worse DPM on our team including JJ and FWIW Clemson has a higher defensive rating on KenPom than us. KenPom thinks they’ve played better offensive teams than we have so far.

And I’m mostly picking on that position because everyone else is debating the forwards when most fans thought we were getting a sure upgrade at the 2. It hasn’t happened at all.

Oh don't get me wrong here. My point more than anything is that we can't just plug Clemson Joe into the 23-24 SU team and expect the same production. Joe is being put in a position at Clemson to succeed with his skill set which is something that didn't really happen here. There were plays were Joe doesn't touch the ball or immediately passes it and rotates to a corner to be a decoy/safety valve and watch two other guys get PJ Hall work. He's not required to create shots for himself or others or dribble into the paint and attempt layups, and it's working great. It's what should have been what they did with him here.

Many things can be true at the same time: the zone was hot garbage last season, and wasn't particular good seasons before that. Girard is not a good defender at Clemson or at SU. Clemson is a damn good offensive team. and their offense is worlds different than Autry's or JAB's. Joe is succeding offensively at Clemson. Etc.

I haven't been real impressed with Autry's offense so far, the roster (including our pile of centers), and Starling. I'm completely confused as to why Chris Bell was retained and continues to get minutes (though fewer). I have no idea if Autry told Joe to look elsewhere, if he didn't want to not start or compete for minutes or what, if they didn't think he could play defense, if it was NIL related. Whatever, I don't really care because he's gone.

But the lack of shooting on this SU team is glaring.

 

[djcon57]

Joes DBPM is 1.4 JJ is .2

Yes, that is one metric.

I said never said Joe's DPBM is lower than JJ's

 

[Brooky03]

This has a good shot at getting red high-heeled to death, but I’m hoping Girard drops 40 on us.

Aw the dislikes don’t look like high heels anymore. That’s disappointing.

Change it back, temery

(I’m afraid to actually tag him)

 

[althea]

Joes DBPM is 1.4 JJ is .2

Hypothetical question for you. If the head coach thinks you are the teams best defender and he always assigns you the best player to guard, won’t that hurt your defensive metrics?

I’m not implying that is the case, just curious.

 

[rrlbees]

Yes, that is one metric.

I said never said Joe's DPBM is lower than JJ's

It was your favorite metric to through out last year. And what is DPBR? I assumed a typo.

 

[djcon57]

It was your favorite metric to through out last year. And what is DPBR? I assumed a typo.

I'll let you search for it since you clearly know what metrics are and are using the term correctly.

 

[rrlbees]

Hypothetical question for you. If the head coach thinks you are the teams best defender and he always assigns you the best player to guard, won’t that hurt your defensive metrics?

I’m not implying that is the case, just curious.

I’m sure it would some. But they are both playing the 2G in m2m. And I doubt JJ is always covering the other teams best player. JJ also had the worst DPBM on ND last year too.

 

[djcon57]

Hypothetical question for you. If the head coach thinks you are the teams best defender and he always assigns you the best player to guard, won’t that hurt your defensive metrics?

I’m not implying that is the case, just curious.

Nope, it wouldn't. Look at the top guys in the NBA. Thybulle, Kyle Anderson, Scottie Barnes etc. The known top defenders who guard the best players

It DOES skew by position. C/PF is almost always higher than your SF/SG/PG

 

[rrlbees]

I'll let you search for it since you clearly know what metrics are and are using the term correctly.

Nah. All you hammered last year was DPBM now it doesn’t work for you so you go to another one. Not going to play a circular game. Especially when they are all BS on the defensive side. They are box score metrics and there aren’t any significant box score defensive stats. Based on the metrics McLeod should play a hell of a lot more.

 

[djcon57]

Nah. All you hammered last year was DPBM now it doesn’t work for you so you go to another one. Not going to play a circular game. Especially when they are all BS on the defensive side. They are box score metrics and there aren’t any significant box score defensive stats. Based on the metrics McLeod should play a hell of a lot more.

BPR Numbers as of 2/16/23

I know some folks people love to crap on analytics yet SOMEHOW ...you look at the BPR (EvanMiya.com) numbers from Jan 12th vs Feb 16th and it tells you the whole story that anyone who knows what they are watching could tell you. "Can't start Maliq" - Welp, we start him, somehow we are now...

syracusefan.com

Here's a post from last year where I posted about BPR. Please stop lying. Thanks.

Also, please re-read the post MCC thoughfully gave you in regards to Big Men vs Guards

 

[sufan59]

Joe Girard does not add any value to our current team except the ability to make a few shots. Which he even had a fair share of games where nothing was going in. His game is not suited for the tempo that we are playing with (we are one of the fastest teams in the country). I’m happy for him because he found a place that suits his strengths better than what we’re trying to run. His role on our team would be getting in the game when shots aren’t falling to hit a 3 pointer or two and then back to the bench because it’s only a matter of time that he can’t keep up with the tempo of our defense and offense.

 

[rrlbees]

BPR Numbers as of 2/16/23

I know some folks people love to crap on analytics yet SOMEHOW ...you look at the BPR (EvanMiya.com) numbers from Jan 12th vs Feb 16th and it tells you the whole story that anyone who knows what they are watching could tell you. "Can't start Maliq" - Welp, we start him, somehow we are now...

syracusefan.com

Here's a post from last year where I posted about BPR. Please stop lying. Thanks.

Also, please re-read the post MCC thoughfully gave you in regards to Big Men vs Guards

LOL.

What am I lying about? All these acronyms look alike. And you certainly did hammer the other one. We discussed it numerous times how it’s useless and what sports reference said about it. And I found BPR and Mya. And yes DBPR jj is slightly better than Joe but Box DBPR Joe is better. But the Offensive metrics are such a disparity that Joe overall is graded far higher.

But again, none of this means diddly to me. Box score metrics for defense don’t exist. It’s almost meaningless.

 

[two3zone]

Because roughly 97% of this board would have to swallow their pride and that’s a hard thing to do. When Joe hit the portal and we grabbed JJ…..the entire summer was filled with “We got a 5 star!! Now we have the Best backcourt in the ACC/Country! Joe should go to Siena, good riddance.”

I ate mine last year after giving him a tough time for his first three years. Kids a gamer.

 

[Brooky03]

Joe Girard does not add any value to our current team except the ability to make a few shots. Which he even had a fair share of games where nothing was going in. His game is not suited for the tempo that we are playing with (we are one of the fastest teams in the country). I’m happy for him because he found a place that suits his strengths better than what we’re trying to run. His role on our team would be getting in the game when shots aren’t falling to hit a 3 pointer or two and then back to the bench because it’s only a matter of time that he can’t keep up with the tempo of our defense and offense.

What is it about our pace that he couldn’t keep up with?

 

[sufan59]

What is it about our pace that he couldn’t keep up with?

Ken Pom. We are ranked 38th in adjusted tempo.
Clemson is ranked 210.
Syracuse last year was 170.
The year prior was 144.
We are a different team playing a different brand of basketball then when Joe was here.

People gotta ask themselves if a Joe Girard clone was a High School senior right now, would be all in on recruiting his type of player to be a starter?

 

[Brooky03]

Ken Pom. We are ranked 38th in adjusted tempo.
Clemson is ranked 210.
Syracuse last year was 170.
The year prior was 144.
We are a different team playing a different brand of basketball then when Joe was here.

No, I understand that. I was just curious why Joe couldn’t play for a fast paced team.

If we played a lot of full court press, for instance, I’d see how that wouldn’t be great for him. But we don’t. We’re not terribly efficient at starting or converting fast breaks either. We just try to get the offense moving earlier in the shot clock, for the most part. I’d think Joe could handle that.