Kaleb

[Timonen]

I'm sure I'm rationalizing, but he reminds me of a lot of the non-traditional uconn point guards that never scared us when they were young...but ended up growing into superstars.

Joseph is in the ballpark on points (7.4 vs. 7.8 for Shabazz and 8.9 for Kemba) and leads on assists (5.8 vs. 3.0 for shabazz and 2.9 for Kemba). Their turnover ratio is similar. Obviously, Joseph's stats will fluctuate when he goes through conference play, but 2 out of 5 games have been against quality opponents so I don't think it's a bad sample.

If you factor in Kaleb's clear leadership, I could really see him growing into something fantastic. We just need to fight through this year.

 

[jordoo]

The one difference is that Kemba was playing behind/alongside Price (an excellent senior PG) as a freshman and Shabazz was playing behind/alongside Kemba as a freshman. BTW the boatshow will not make it happen IMO.

Still I agree that Kaleb has all the makings of being an excellent PG at some point in time. If he just keeps improving a little bit at a time and actually gets his arms and hands up on defense he will be pretty dang good by the end of this season.

 

[asj410]

Kaleb is definitely a player that looks like he has the "it" factor to become a star for us. He'll need another year or two to get there, but I think he'll be great.

Still I agree that Kaleb has all the makings of being an excellent PG at some point in time. If he just keeps improving a little bit at a time and actually gets his arms and hands up on defense he will be pretty dang good by the end of this season.

Lol...I was yelling at the TV last night that he needs to get his hands up on D.

 

[sufandu]

I have to be honest, it's hard for me to get excited. Not because I don't think he can become a star, but because I'm afraid, just as we're starting to see it, he'll be gone. It's the way of college basketball now. We can see it already with all of the talk about CM. Most have him out the door, so it's impossible to see his potential and think about what the team could look like next year with him having developed for a year combined with the new guys that'll be coming in.

There seem to be two ways of winning a NC now. Have guys that have some sort of trait that hinders their chances of leaving early (too small, not athletic enough) or get multiple guys every year that are immediate superstars. The days of seeing an athletic player loaded with potential develop in college are gone.

 

[Timonen]

I have to be honest, it's hard for me to get excited. Not because I don't think he can become a star, but because I'm afraid, just as we're starting to see it, he'll be gone. It's the way of college basketball now. We can see it already with all of the talk about CM. Most have him out the door, so it's impossible to see his potential and think about what the team could look like next year with him having developed for a year combined with the new guys that'll be coming in.

There seem to be two ways of winning a NC now. Have guys that have some sort of trait that hinders their chances of leaving early (too small, not athletic enough) or get multiple guys every year that are immediate superstars. The days of seeing an athletic player loaded with potential develop in college are gone.

well, that's the tradeoff we're making with a (likely) subpar year this season. he's clearly not going anywhere now. tyler was in control from day one and he was a borderline exit last year. kaleb isn't in that universe.

 

[Orangezoo]

Going back to before he got on campus that is the comparison i made in terms of kalebs game. He has that kind of ability and is a gym rat. We will just need that influx of talent and shooting next year to fill in the gaps. Last night was an useless event playing another really bad cupcake. Holy Cross will challenge us much more and be a good warmup for the tough stretch upcoming.

 

[sufandu]

well, that's the tradeoff we're making with a (likely) subpar year this season. he's clearly not going anywhere now. tyler was in control from day one and he was a borderline exit last year. kaleb isn't in that universe.

Sure. Hopefully, it's a tradeoff that pays off, but who knows, with his athleticism and a little development throughout the year, some teams may be interested in him based on his potential. Guys don't have to be guaranteed lottery picks to make the jump anymore. They just have to think they may go in the first round like Grant last year.

 

[memcorsu]

Joseph has a bit of Pearl in him (like Coleman, maybe a lot ). Needs to make better decisions on interior passing and handling the ball with pressure, but the way that he pushes up the court on the break, and that pull up pop from free throw line are def Pearl.

 

[Cuse117]

I think people are just trying to find reasons to give Kaleb a pass. I have said in the other threads that I do believe he will improve and be a solid player at cuse, but he is downright dreadful right now. He virtually never sets up his teammates in a position for them to be successful, and that is absolutely critical for a team with not much offensive ability to be successful. He is constantly indecisive on his passing which leads to our post players being moved off their spots or defenses already closing out on open shooters. I literally can't recall once this season thinking "oh kaleb really set up (insert player) nicely on that play."

The he improved in the 2nd half of last game narative is garbage because how could he NOT have played better, and the improvement wasn't really all that substantial at all. I like the kids upside, I think in time he will be a nice player at cuse but through 5 games he just isnt bringing anything positive to the team. Luckily for him though, he just gonna get to figure it out because we don't have any other option (esp with G playing like complete garbage). People want to say we need McC or Rak or whoever to step up major or we have no chance, but really if our PG play is gonna continue to be this bad then its all irrelevent.

 

[Timonen]

I think people are just trying to find reasons to give Kaleb a pass. I have said in the other threads that I do believe he will improve and be a solid player at cuse, but he is downright dreadful right now. He virtually never sets up his teammates in a position for them to be successful, and that is absolutely critical for a team with not much offensive ability to be successful. He is constantly indecisive on his passing which leads to our post players being moved off their spots or defenses already closing out on open shooters. I literally can't recall once this season thinking "oh kaleb really set up (insert player) nicely on that play."

The he improved in the 2nd half of last game narative is garbage because how could he NOT have played better, and the improvement wasn't really all that substantial at all. I like the kids upside, I think in time he will be a nice player at cuse but through 5 games he just isnt bringing anything positive to the team. Luckily for him though, he just gonna get to figure it out because we don't have any other option (esp with G playing like complete garbage). People want to say we need McC or Rak or whoever to step up major or we have no chance, but really if our PG play is gonna continue to be this bad then its all irrelevent.

i think you're being dramatic. he's averaging 5.8 assists a game and our bigs are scoring like they haven't in years. that doesn't happen independently of the pg. the turnovers are reflective of 1) his experience as a pg and 2) the pace he sets. also, consider our 3-pt shooting % when you assess his assists. He'd get another 1-2/game if we were even average shooters. He's pretty much what I expected.

 

[jec1521]

I have to be honest, it's hard for me to get excited. Not because I don't think he can become a star, but because I'm afraid, just as we're starting to see it, he'll be gone. It's the way of college basketball now. We can see it already with all of the talk about CM. Most have him out the door, so it's impossible to see his potential and think about what the team could look like next year with him having developed for a year combined with the new guys that'll be coming in.

There seem to be two ways of winning a NC now. Have guys that have some sort of trait that hinders their chances of leaving early (too small, not athletic enough) or get multiple guys every year that are immediate superstars. The days of seeing an athletic player loaded with potential develop in college are gone.

The second part of this is spot on. We are stuck in the middle. We recruit too well to get 4 year players, yet not well enough to get 1-2 year guys that can actually make a significant impact.

 

[Timonen]

The second part of this is spot on. We are stuck in the middle. We recruit too well to get 4 year players, yet not well enough to get 1-2 year guys that can actually make a significant impact.

there's no single formula. kentucky and louisville and uconn had very different roster makeups for their championships. our way of doing things had us in the final four TWO YEARS AGO! at that point, it's catching breaks and getting hot.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Lol...I was yelling at the TV last night that he needs to get his hands up on D.

He needs to stop that little entry pass into the high post. That is a major flaw in our defense right now. I didn't see any improvement last night. Hopefully we'll see that pass being denied better within the next couple games.

 

[sufandu]

there's no single formula. kentucky and louisville and uconn had very different roster makeups for their championships. our way of doing things had us in the final four TWO YEARS AGO! at that point, it's catching breaks and getting hot.

All three fall into the categories I mentioned. Louisville and UConn were made up mostly of guys that were great college players but have "flaws" that prevented them from jumping to the league early based on potential. Kentucky was loaded with one and done studs.

 

[CorduroyG]

All three fall into the categories I mentioned. Louisville and UConn were made up mostly of guys that were great college players but have "flaws" that prevented them from jumping to the league early based on potential. Kentucky was loaded with one and done studs.

Exactly. Kemba walker was a junior when they won in 2011. We couldn't get Flynn or dion or mcw or even grant to stay for their junior year. Last year Napier was a senior and boatright a junior and we couldn't even get our pg to stay for his soph year. Siva was a senior and Russ smith a junior when Louisville won 2 years ago.

 

[pearl31]

I think people are just trying to find reasons to give Kaleb a pass. I have said in the other threads that I do believe he will improve and be a solid player at cuse, but he is downright dreadful right now. He virtually never sets up his teammates in a position for them to be successful, and that is absolutely critical for a team with not much offensive ability to be successful. He is constantly indecisive on his passing which leads to our post players being moved off their spots or defenses already closing out on open shooters. I literally can't recall once this season thinking "oh kaleb really set up (insert player) nicely on that play."

The he improved in the 2nd half of last game narative is garbage because how could he NOT have played better, and the improvement wasn't really all that substantial at all. I like the kids upside, I think in time he will be a nice player at cuse but through 5 games he just isnt bringing anything positive to the team. Luckily for him though, he just gonna get to figure it out because we don't have any other option (esp with G playing like complete garbage). People want to say we need McC or Rak or whoever to step up major or we have no chance, but really if our PG play is gonna continue to be this bad then its all irrelevent.

This post is, for the most part, rubbish.

 

[Cuse117]

Seems like a typical response around here, you say its rubbish but do nothing to refute it. A pgs job is to make the players around him better... for every instance where he has done that i can give you mistakes he made that just aren't even remotely acceptable. I still have faith in him, hes gonna get better and he has the skill set to become a good college player but right now hes playing poor basketball. He almost always seems to be a second slow on his decision making and it costs us on the offensive end. Once he adjusts to college ball i think we will see a lot of that disappear.

 

[RoysRunts]

more like a better jumping Eddie Moss

 

[Timonen]

All three fall into the categories I mentioned. Louisville and UConn were made up mostly of guys that were great college players but have "flaws" that prevented them from jumping to the league early based on potential. Kentucky was loaded with one and done studs.

but there are tons of teams of every profile that haven't won. Kansas/Duke are kentuckyish. Michigan has had a million stars come through. Same for UCLA, Arizona, etc. Florida had vets but couldn't win. There's no use parsing and overthinking what has worked really well for us.

so here we are. shouldn't you be excited that joseph, cooney, patterson, johnson, et al will have longer tenures? we've been so incredible the past 6ish years you can't use hindsight to say "eh, we should have passed on some of that talent and taken on more projects." we were in the mix every year. that's all you can ask for. this year, we won't be in the mix, but we've got the projects. SO, seems to me we're hitting it from every angle.

 

[Cuse117]

i think you're being dramatic. he's averaging 5.8 assists a game and our bigs are scoring like they haven't in years. that doesn't happen independently of the pg. the turnovers are reflective of 1) his experience as a pg and 2) the pace he sets. also, consider our 3-pt shooting % when you assess his assists. He'd get another 1-2/game if we were even average shooters. He's pretty much what I expected.

Yea i am probably over exaggerating slightly to make my point, but with how we run our offense our bigs scoring is happening very often independently of the pg. Just look at last game for example, a large portion of our offense was kaleb dump it in to Rak, everyone clear out and Rak goes one on one in a mismatch. Kaleb gets the assist on it but Rak does the work.

Also a counter to your 3 Point percentages would be, show me an example where a drive by Kaleb leads to a kickout for an open 3 for cooney or whomever.

 

[sufandu]

but there are tons of teams of every profile that haven't won. Kansas/Duke are kentuckyish. Michigan has had a million stars come through. Same for UCLA, Arizona, etc. Florida had vets but couldn't win. There's no use parsing and overthinking what has worked really well for us.

so here we are. shouldn't you be excited that joseph, cooney, patterson, johnson, et al will have longer tenures? we've been so incredible the past 6ish years you can't use hindsight to say "eh, we should have passed on some of that talent and taken on more projects." we were in the mix every year. that's all you can ask for. this year, we won't be in the mix, but we've got the projects. SO, seems to me we're hitting it from every angle.

I don't think anyone can say what anyone else "should" be excited over. I remember the days when someone could be a great player and you could look forward to seeing them the following year. Now, in order to enjoy them for more than one year, I have to hope they don't get too good. A guy doesn't even have to be dominant to leave. Grant wasn't even close to being a dominant college player and he left. It's tough hoping a guy gets better... but not too much better.

Following college basketball just isn't as much fun as it used to be. The players that you want to watch the most are gone before you get to know them.

 

[Timonen]

I don't think anyone can say what anyone else "should" be excited over. I remember the days when someone could be a great player and you could look forward to seeing them the following year. Now, in order to enjoy them for more than one year, I have to hope they don't get too good. A guy doesn't even have to be dominant to leave. Grant wasn't even close to being a dominant college player and he left. It's tough hoping a guy gets better... but not too much better.

Following college basketball just isn't as much fun as it used to be. The players that you want to watch the most are gone before you get to know them.

i don't disagree with any of that. that's a macro issue, though, and one that every team deals with. i think we should just hope that everybody maximize their potential asap when here, because that will give us the best chance to win ultimately. if kids succeed to the point of earning a chance to get paid, good for them. There's an analogy on the football side with coaches. It would have been a great thing for Shafer to wildly exceed expectations and get snatched up by someone who can pay 5X what we pay. We would have benefited by that situation. It's the same deal with basketball. It doesn't feel like it because we always focus on what could have been, but we've benefited by it with our incredible run over the past bunch of years.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

He needs to stop picking up his dribble.

 

[sufandu]

i don't disagree with any of that. that's a macro issue, though, and one that every team deals with. i think we should just hope that everybody maximize their potential asap when here, because that will give us the best chance to win ultimately. if kids succeed to the point of earning a chance to get paid, good for them. There's an analogy on the football side with coaches. It would have been a great thing for Shafer to wildly exceed expectations and get snatched up by someone who can pay 5X what we pay. We would have benefited by that situation. It's the same deal with basketball. It doesn't feel like it because we always focus on what could have been, but we've benefited by it with our incredible run over the past bunch of years.

The analogy isn't accurate, however. Grant's year last year was akin to what Shafer did in his first year. If our coach was poached every time he won a low level bowl game, I wouldn't say that was good for us. If Grant had been a 20/10 guy and left it would've been one thing, but guys don't wait until they're that good anymore.

 

[Timonen]

The analogy isn't accurate, however. Grant's year last year was akin to what Shafer did in his first year. If our coach was poached every time he won a low level bowl game, I wouldn't say that was good for us. If Grant had been a 20/10 guy and left it would've been one thing, but guys don't wait until they're that good anymore.

Grant's time here was good for us. we had a gazillion wins and a final four run. it was good for him (he's getting paid to play basketball). if we were getting 18 wins/season and this was happening i would lament it but we're just under the duke/kentucky/kansas tier during his time here. and duke lost to mercer/kentucky lost to robert morris in nit. we have a lot to be proud of/happy about but we seem to weigh sentiment towards the lamenting instead of that.