Kris Joseph's place in history

[moqui]

Against UConn, Kris scored his 1400th career point and grabbed his 600th career rebound.

I have often written about the difference-making forward as a key component of JB's best teams, and wondered whether Kris could fulfill that role. Well, only 15 other men in school history have gone for 1400 and 600, including all of those difference-makers. I list them below in order of their combined totals

Half of the guys on that list - the entire top 5 as well as the 7th, 14th and 15th) all made it past the Sweet 16 at least once in their careers. Will Kris join them?

edit - thanks to CaptainSyracuse for pointing out that Rudy Hackett also made it past the Sweet 16, meaning 9 of the previous 15 have accomplished the feat (and 8 of those 9 went to the Final Four)

 

[suthrills]

Great chart.
Kris Joseph is good but I don't think I'd take him over any of the 15 guys ahead of him. Now if he leads us to a FF that may change.

 

[orangenirvana]

Kris Jo could be this team's JDub.

He needs to show more of his back-to-the-basket game, which worked well against USF. He's developed into a very good outside shooter. If he can (a) continue grinding for defensive rebounds and stop cheating to the basket and (b) stop dribbling so much, he can be All-American caliber and this team is very difficult to beat.

 

[jekelish]

Looking at the games played is mind blowing. Can you imagine the career numbers for Dave Bing if he played the number of games someone like DC did? It's absolutely staggering.

 

[moqui]

Looking at the games played is mind blowing. Can you imagine the career numbers for Dave Bing if he played the number of games someone like DC did? It's absolutely staggering.

yup . . . and look at what Bill Smith did in only 70 games . . . over 900 rebounds in 70 games, the equivalent of 2 seasons today

 

[jekelish]

yup . . . and look at what Bill Smith did in only 70 games . . . over 900 rebounds in 70 games, the equivalent of 2 seasons today

I was going to write the post about him actually, but then saw Bing only played six more games. Today, with the number of games we play, Bing would have scored 3500 points. That's insane.

 

[orange03]

Kris Jo could be this team's JDub.

He needs to show more of his back-to-the-basket game, which worked well against USF. He's developed into a very good outside shooter. If he can (a) continue grinding for defensive rebounds and stop cheating to the basket and (b) stop dribbling so much, he can be All-American caliber and this team is very difficult to beat.

Bad comparison. I don't actually think you're comparing him to Wallace, but even still. JW's senior year was as dominating a year as we've had sans Melo's. Joseph is a good-very good player at times but just isn't good enough to impose his will on people on a consistent basis.

If we are to make a deep run it will be with the formula we've used all year, i.e. a different guy taking his turn.

 

[moqui]

Bad comparison. I don't actually think you're comparing him to Wallace, but even still. JW's senior year was as dominating a year as we've had sans Melo's. Joseph is a good-very good player at times but just isn't good enough to impose his will on people on a consistent basis.

If we are to make a deep run it will be with the formula we've used all year, i.e. a different guy taking his turn.

yeah, if SU makes a deep run this year then it is going to break the mold. No dominating forward, nobody who can get consistent points or free throws from the low post.

Joseph is this team's Todd Burgan, and Scoop is going to have to manufacture offense for everyone else, IMO.

 

[newmexicuse]

I was going to write the post about him actually, but then saw Bing only played six more games. Today, with the number of games we play, Bing would have scored 3500 points. That's insane.

BING-sanity !!!

PS - He should have been a Knick except they were numbnuts even then & took Cazzie Russell over Dave. Now Cazzie was a nice player, but there was no comparo between the two !!

 

[stuckinbig11]

Your list makes Bing, Hackett, and Smitty really stand out, a their freshmen years were on the freshman team.

 

[jekelish]

I think you mean 5300 points - BING-sanity !!!

PS - He should have been a Knick except they were numbnuts even then & took Cazzie Russell over Dave. Now Cazzie was a nice player, but there was no comparo between the two !!

1800 points, times two, equals 3600. I went slightly below that.

It's ok though, math is hard.

 

[newmexicuse]

1800 points, times two, equals 3600. I went slightly below that.

It's ok though, math is hard.

My bad - I was looking at combined !!!

 

[billsin01]

yeah, if SU makes a deep run this year then it is going to break the mold. No dominating forward, nobody who can get consistent points or free throws from the low post.

Joseph is this team's Todd Burgan, and Scoop is going to have to manufacture offense for everyone else, IMO.

Yeah, Burgan to me is a pretty good comp. I also agree on Scoop's ability to manufacture and/or this team's ability to get out and run. I will say that Joseph in a back-and-forth, up-and-down type of game is a really, really, really good player. I think that's why he had his best year in 2009-10 even though he's a better player today. He's more diverse and well-rounded today, but was tremendously efficient as a complementary piece on a very talented, very up-tempo team.

 

[orange03]

yeah, if SU makes a deep run this year then it is going to break the mold. No dominating forward, nobody who can get consistent points or free throws from the low post.

Joseph is this team's Todd Burgan, and Scoop is going to have to manufacture offense for everyone else, IMO.

Really is an unusual Syracuse team. Still have my concerns for a deep run, but if nothing else they've proven that they're a mentally tough team who will be in every game they play.

 

[jekelish]

My bad - I was looking at combined !!!

I figured that, but it's fun to screw with people. Just ask Gianna Michaels.

 

[orangenirvana]

Bad comparison. I don't actually think you're comparing him to Wallace, but even still. JW's senior year was as dominating a year as we've had sans Melo's. Joseph is a good-very good player at times but just isn't good enough to impose his will on people on a consistent basis.

If we are to make a deep run it will be with the formula we've used all year, i.e. a different guy taking his turn.

That's just it - Joseph has the talent and ability to impose his will on a consistent basis. We haven't seen it, but it doesn't mean it cannot happen.

The formula we've used lately is shut down the opponent on defense, and score just barely enough to beat mediocre teams by the skin of our teeth. We need more offense. That has to come from someone. I doubt it comes from everyone at once.

Hence, I think Joseph can be that guy if he consistently does what I posted above, which he has already demonstrated he can do.

 

[newmexicuse]

That's just it - Joseph has the talent and ability to impose his will on a consistent basis. We haven't seen it, but it doesn't mean it cannot happen.

The formula we've used lately is shut down the opponent on defense, and score just barely enough to beat mediocre teams by the skin of our teeth. We need more offense. That has to come from someone. I doubt it comes from everyone at once.

Hence, I think Joseph can be that guy if he consistently does what I posted above, which he has already demonstrated he can do.

Can't agree with that statement. How is he gonna do that ? His outside shot is erratic and he can only drive w an open lane. He can't get to the bucket in traffic. His athleticism is good, but not elite. He gets a lot of his hoops in transition, which are not baskets that he could create by imposing his will. He is a very solid player, but hardly the impose his will level of talent.

 

[SoBeCuse]

That's just it - Joseph has the talent and ability to impose his will on a consistent basis. We haven't seen it, but it doesn't mean it cannot happen.

The formula we've used lately is shut down the opponent on defense, and score just barely enough to beat mediocre teams by the skin of our teeth. We need more offense. That has to come from someone. I doubt it comes from everyone at once.

Hence, I think Joseph can be that guy if he consistently does what I posted above, which he has already demonstrated he can do.

Maybe, but he still makes too many What plays for a senior and settles for high-risk jumpers. Lets hope he's turning the corner now towards March and playing to his strengths. He's not a SG.

 

[BuffOrange]

Bad comparison. I don't actually think you're comparing him to Wallace, but even still. JW's senior year was as dominating a year as we've had sans Melo's. Joseph is a good-very good player at times but just isn't good enough to impose his will on people on a consistent basis.

I wanted to challenge your statement until looking at the #'s on orangehoops.org - I guess I didn't realize how much of a beast JW really was that whole year. Even so, the memories of him would be very very different without Cippola making that shot 'cause lots of people regarded him as a bit of an underachiever before his Sr year.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I wanted to challenge your statement until looking at the #'s on orangehoops.org - I guess I didn't realize how much of a beast JW really was that whole year. Even so, the memories of him would be very very different without the tournament run 'cause lots of people regarded him as a bit of an underachiever before his Sr year.

No comparison between Wallace/Joseph really, IMO. Wallace was a beast inside too. Wallace was playing with some very good players before his senior year as well.

 

[billsin01]

Can't agree with that statement. How is he gonna do that ? His outside shot is erratic and he can only drive w an open lane. He can't get to the bucket in traffic. His athleticism is good, but not elite. He gets a lot of his hoops in transition, which are not baskets that he could create by imposing his will. He is a very solid player, but hardly the impose his will level of talent.

Can he impose his will on a consistent basis? I have my doubts from sort of a basketball IQ standpoint, but I love the recent trend of attacking more from 15 feet and in. Regardless, however, I wouldn't really call him an erratic shooter nor would I criticize his athleticism.

He's certainly not a pure shooter, but he's 37% from 3. That's pretty solid despite a recent slump. And athletically, I guess it's all anecdotal, but I really don't remember too many guys this side of Carmelo and DC that were any more athletic than KJ, who's a legit 6-7, quick off the floor and dangerous inside and out and in transition. The only weakness athletically is that he's a bit of a long-strider as opposed to a short-area quickness type, but ultimately I'd argue he's right there athletically with every one of those players I saw other than DC, Melo (not on the list), Billy O and Stevie Thompson (I don't really remember much before Addison). And while that's four guys, it's really the best of the best.

At the end of the day, the difference between Joseph and a lot of guys on that list, in my opinion, is basketball IQ. The best cuse players always seemed to have good hoops IQs which allowed them to flourish in JB's system. The guys that don't tended to lose focus on what got them the easiest points and made them the most efficient. Joseph is in this category, IMO. More time in the post could have made him an 18-19 ppg scorer.

 

[BuffOrange]

No comparison between Wallace/Joseph really, IMO. Wallace was a beast inside too. Wallace was playing with some very good players before his senior year as well.

Meh, I guess. Lloyd/Moten/Reafsynder/Jackson? Even if you consider that a very good cast shouldn't a great player along side Moten be able to do better than a 7seed in the ncaas?

 

[jr4750]

Against UConn, Kris scored his 1400th career point and grabbed his 600th career rebound.

I have often written about the difference-making forward as a key component of JB's best teams, and wondered whether Kris could fulfill that role. Well, only 15 other men in school history have gone for 1400 and 600, including all of those difference-makers. I list them below in order of their combined totals

Half of the guys on that list - the entire top 5 as well as the 7th, 14th and 15th) all made it past the Sweet 16 at least once in their careers. Will Kris join them?

How good was Dave Bing... Holy cow... Huge numbers in 76 games! Incredible!

 

[newmexicuse]

Can he impose his will on a consistent basis? I have my doubts from sort of a basketball IQ standpoint, but I love the recent trend of attacking more from 15 feet and in. Regardless, however, I wouldn't really call him an erratic shooter nor would I criticize his athleticism.

He's certainly not a pure shooter, but he's 37% from 3. That's pretty solid despite a recent slump. And athletically, I guess it's all anecdotal, but I really don't remember too many guys this side of Carmelo and DC that were any more athletic than KJ, who's a legit 6-7, quick off the floor and dangerous inside and out and in transition. The only weakness athletically is that he's a bit of a long-strider as opposed to a short-area quickness type, but ultimately I'd argue he's right there athletically with every one of those players I saw other than DC, Melo (not on the list), Billy O and Stevie Thompson (I don't really remember much before Addison). And while that's four guys, it's really the best of the best.

At the end of the day, the difference between Joseph and a lot of guys on that list, in my opinion, is basketball IQ. The best cuse players always seemed to have good hoops IQs which allowed them to flourish in JB's system. The guys that don't tended to lose focus on what got them the easiest points and made them the most efficient. Joseph is in this category, IMO. More time in the post could have made him an 18-19 ppg scorer.

If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that Kris has impose his will type of talent, but lacks BB IQ ??? I happen to think Kris is a smart player who understands his skillset and tries to play within himself, perhaps he even plays within himself a little bit too much. Yes, it is arguable that perhaps he should have tried harder to become a post up player, but during his time at the Cuse we have seen an expansion of his skills in terms of improvement in shooting, better shot selection, taking care of the ball, and finishing in transition. A player simply cannot improve himself eveywhere. Kris has chosen to focus on improving his glaring weakness (outside shooting when he first got here) and his strengths. I see nothing wrong with those choices.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Meh, I guess. Lloyd/Moten/Reafsynder/Jackson? Even if you consider that a very good cast shouldn't a great player along side Moten be able to do better than a 7seed in the ncaas?

I agree but there were some powerhouse teams nationally around that time. UNC, UCLA, Duke, UK, OSU, Arkansas, UConn, Maryland, Wake, UMass, Utah. All much better than SU.