Musings on the Defense

[sufandu]

See 2010 where we played coverage the whole year.

So you're saying guys may have a better understanding of a new defense in year two. Or maybe you're saying it helps to play two FCS teams and only one ranked FBS team in a season.

Those teams had more talent on defense. I agreed to that earlier. I took exception when you said nobody was talented enough to start for those teams. Our most talented players are young. Those teams had some talented veterans. I think some of our young guys could end up comparable to them.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

So you're saying guys may have a better understanding of a new defense in year two. Or maybe you're saying it helps to play two FCS teams and only one ranked FBS team in a season.

Those teams had more talent on defense. I agreed to that earlier. I took exception when you said nobody was talented enough to start for those teams. Our most talented players are young. Those teams had some talented veterans. I think some of our young guys could end up comparable to them.

Years 1, 3, and 4 Shafer played an attacking style of D. Year 2 was a passive style. So 2010 showed that Hogue could play in either, which you questioned. Since 2009 and 2010 were quite different in style, the 2nd year in a D isn't a factor. For the season averages it helped to play 2 FCS teams but the D still had success against Top 25 Os (see WV).

Some of our guys might end up comparable but right now they are not good enough to start. 2017 player X or 2018 player Y could be as good or even better than 2009 player A or player B. But 2016 player X or player Y is not as good as 2009 player A or player B. So we have a talent issue this year. Some of that is talent being too young. Some of that is talent lacking entirely. Either way the talent isn't where it needs to be right now.

 

[Ish88888]

Really? Dungey wouldn't start over Paulus? Etta Tawo wouldn't start? I know that team had Mike Williams, but c'mon

Its rubbish! ET, ED, ish would for sure be starters on O. Slayton, Steven on D.

 

[Ish88888]

Also love bcubs original point about the Houston roster. Minus 4-6 teams, most ncaa rosters are built with 3* players. There simply are not enough 4 and 5 * guys in every yearly draft to fill rosters across the country. We have plenty of 3* talented players who are hungry and coachable. Thats huge. It's more about system guys that develop a chemistry. Its an insult to the players currently in the program to label them an lacking talent. Winning in college is more about proper scheming and coaching than it is overall talent. See boise, tcu, ndst, ecu, etc.

 

[PAcuse]

This discussion are fun and all, but 3 games vs. a full season to figure out how good a player is. Also the 2009 team is tainted in our views because we have seen their full college careers and NFL careers to date. So sure you can go on and on how much more talent the 2009 Defensive team has vs. the 2016 Defensive team. We really should judge it after the full body of work. Maybe 2-3 kids blow up in the next few years and we get a few high draft picks. Chandler was a simple 2 star recruit and blew up his last two years. I'll hold judgement until the end of year.

 

[cuse309]

This discussion are fun and all, but 3 games vs. a full season to figure out how good a player is. Also the 2009 team is tainted in our views because we have seen their full college careers and NFL careers to date. So sure you can go on and on how much more talent the 2009 Defensive team has vs. the 2016 Defensive team. We really should judge it after the full body of work. Maybe 2-3 kids blow up in the next few years and we get a few high draft picks. Chandler was a simple 2 star recruit and blew up his last two years. I'll hold judgement until the end of year.

Think of this team as a big lasagna. Right now there are a bunch of ingredients beginning to congeal. Right now it's pretty watery and goopy and the noodles are hard, and we're lacking some spices. By the end of year 2, once all the ingredients are added, and it's had time to cook, much like lasagna, it too will be glorious.
The team at this point, is like an uncooked lasagna sitting in a pan while the oven pre-heats. Absolutely no reason to worry at all yet long term. I still think, that as this lasagna cooks throughout the year, it has enough ingredients ,and time, to serve up some under cooked/but edible lasagna this year. When Dino is your chef, your lasagna will be fabulous.

 

[Mr Peabody]

This discussion are fun and all, but 3 games vs. a full season to figure out how good a player is. Also the 2009 team is tainted in our views because we have seen their full college careers and NFL careers to date. So sure you can go on and on how much more talent the 2009 Defensive team has vs. the 2016 Defensive team. We really should judge it after the full body of work. Maybe 2-3 kids blow up in the next few years and we get a few high draft picks. Chandler was a simple 2 star recruit and blew up his last two years. I'll hold judgement until the end of year.

 

[SWC75]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why there are people who are already seemingly writing off Babers, this defense, and our bowl hopes this year. Teams are dynamic throughout any given year, especially when they are very young, and learning a brand new offensive scheme, and a COMPLETELY different defensive concept, one in which they were not recruited to play. This offense, and defense is not a finished product for this year. This team is not even close to a finished product, in terms of what Dino wants to accomplish. Most everybody expected a defense that would struggle this year given the changeover, and an offense that could put up points. That is pretty much EXACTLY what is happening, but now, for some, that's unacceptable.
I would love nothing more than a bowl game this year, but if that doesn't happen, we should all still be very excited about what Dino could do for this school in the next 2-3 years. Success should be measured in positive changes and improvements throughout the year, not really in wins, and losses, and where do we rank in "category x". What I've already noticed is an offense that has improved vastly, that still has a long way to go, a seemingly more disciplined team as far as procedural penalties, and a total change in the mentality in play calling, (going for it on 4th without even thinking about it.) and better clock management. To sound cliche', Rome wasn't built in a day and Syracuse football won't be built in 3 games. Dino didn't ask for patience just to hear himself talk.

Who has "written off" Babers? I've read people, (including myself), outlining the negatives we see right now but I've haven't read anybody saying they'd given up on his being a success here after only three games.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Think of this team as a big lasagna. Right now there are a bunch of ingredients beginning to congeal. Right now it's pretty watery and goopy and the noodles are hard, and we're lacking some spices. By the end of year 2, once all the ingredients are added, and it's had time to cook, much like lasagna, it too will be glorious.
The team at this point, is like an uncooked lasagna sitting in a pan while the oven pre-heats. Absolutely no reason to worry at all yet long term. I still think, that as this lasagna cooks throughout the year, it has enough ingredients ,and time, to serve up some under cooked/but edible lasagna this year. When Dino is your chef, your lasagna will be fabulous.

 

[SWC75]

Think of this team as a big lasagna. Right now there are a bunch of ingredients beginning to congeal. Right now it's pretty watery and goopy and the noodles are hard, and we're lacking some spices. By the end of year 2, once all the ingredients are added, and it's had time to cook, much like lasagna, it too will be glorious.
The team at this point, is like an uncooked lasagna sitting in a pan while the oven pre-heats. Absolutely no reason to worry at all yet long term. I still think, that as this lasagna cooks throughout the year, it has enough ingredients ,and time, to serve up some under cooked/but edible lasagna this year. When Dino is your chef, your lasagna will be fabulous.

That's the problem- we aren't in the Tampa 2. We're in the Big Lasagna!

 

[bcubs9497]

Franklin isn't very good and certainly doesn't have the quickness to play OLB. The better argument is Bennett or Thomas over EJ Carter. But in either case I would still take Carter.

Winfield is a poor tackler and isn't good in run support. His strength is as a cover guy. He isn't as good as Merkerson who is your cover corner. If you want 2 cover corners then you can take Winfield. I rather take Kevyn Scott though to help with run support.

Cordy wouldn't start over Suter. Heck I think Ellison might be better than Cordy.

Clark IMO wouldn't start over Lewis. He has potential but he is only a true soph. He might end up being very good in time but right now he isn't there.

Slayton I would probably take over Marinovich.

So there we have 1 guy out of 11.

I'm going to take the bolded portion somewhat personally, though it wasn't intended to be so; you do realize that Florida had Steven slotted as their #1 C/OG on their recruiting board? Ole Miss wanted him, too. Same with Penn State. All with a good chance of getting into the 2 deep last year. Pretty sure he'd have made the 2 deep on that team.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I'm going to take the bolded portion somewhat personally, though it wasn't intended to be so; you do realize that Florida had Steven slotted as their #1 C/OG on their recruiting board? Ole Miss wanted him, too. Same with Penn State. All with a good chance of getting into the 2 deep last year. Pretty sure he'd have made the 2 deep on that team.

Him being at C/OG won't help the D.

I didn't say he wouldn't make the 2 deep. IMO he wouldn't have started over Lewis.

I don't think it is an insult to say that an upperclassman who was a decent college player and was good enough to sign as an undrafted FA with an NFL team is better than a true soph.

I also didn't say that one day Clark won't be better than Lewis. What I am saying is that 2016 Clark isn't as good as 2009 Lewis. However chances are 2017 Clark will be better than 2009 Lewis, but that does nothing to help the 2016 D.

 

[bcubs9497]

Him being at C/OG won't help the D.

I didn't say he wouldn't make the 2 deep. IMO he wouldn't have started over Lewis.

I don't think it is an insult to say that an upperclassman who was a decent college player and was good enough to sign as an undrafted FA with an NFL team is better than a true soph.

I also didn't say that one day Clark won't be better than Lewis. What I am saying is that 2016 Clark isn't as good as 2009 Lewis. However chances are 2017 Clark will be better than 2009 Lewis, but that does nothing to help the 2016 D.

IMO, he would.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

IMO, he would.

On the post spring depth chart Clark was 2nd string. If we had DE depth he might not even be starting on this D.

 

[Ish88888]

On the post spring depth chart Clark was 2nd string. If we had DE depth he might not even be starting on this D.

#clueless, bc Steven plays inside at DT. IF we had any depth at all he would probably be starting at DT this year as a FSF, instead of burning his shirt last year.

 

[gocusecaz]

Before you go on with this, in 2009 Lewis was a senior. Let's see what happens in the next 2 and a half seasons with Clark before making comparisons.

 

[HtownOrange]

Some of you guys need to take a step back from the ledge. Seriously. Week three is in the books. Week three in a new defense. Defense is generally easier to pick up than offense. Give the kids a break! HCDB believes the kids on the field are better options than the ones not on the field, and, yes some are in due to injuries but that is part of the game. Get over it.

The kids lost to a top five team that has bumped a top five team, a preseason favorite for the title game! The played a very good FCS team and won, in their first game in the new system! The same defense many on here are decrying held Louisville equally as good as did FSU, the preseason pic for the NC game!

Many complain about the recruiting. There are fair points, there are less than fair points, regardless, it is time to move on. HCDB will get his players in time. We have the players we have and HCDB is using as he best sees fit. Complaining about Shafer and his recruiting does no one any bit of good. You have made a point, move on! HCDB wants his version of the Tampa 2 and the kids we have were not recruited for the Tampa 2, you made your point, Move On! We don't have the talent that Alabama, Texas, FSU, Louisville, tOSU, Michigan, ND, OU have; you made your point, MOVE ON!

Every kid on this team chose to play for Syracuse. You should be thankful they did! Every kid has bought into HCDB's system, you should be thankful. Every kid is showing improvement, you should be thankful.

We play UConn Saturday and several on here believe we will be crushed, expecting 20-40 point loss. OK, I may have exaggerated, but get over yourselves. UConn is not to be mistaken with a world beater. Give it up already. Whether Syracuse wins or loses, the big picture is that HCDB has these kids learning a new system and they are improving. That said, I expect a win. It may not be pretty, but anyone that wants to favorably compare what UConn has played versus what Syracuse has played is really messed up! Colgate could be 3-0 with the UCOnn slate, I have little doubt Syracuse would be 3-0 against UConn's slate.

Can Syracuse lose? Yes, they could. The Vegas line is set to get betting action so the house does not lose, they needed to entice Syracuse bettors to put down money, so what! Vegas changes the line as necessary to get bets, not because they really believe Syracuse will win or lose, to entice gamblers to place money on the game, nothing more.

Tearing down kids because you are mad at Shafer or because you believe HCDB sold you a bill of goods makes no sense. You would be better off stating your frustrations and them moving on and building up the team. That is what real coaches do. That is what leaders do. That is what parents do. That is what adults do. I realize that as fans we sometimes lose sight of the fact that we are adults, parents, leaders, etc., but when we do, we still have an obligation to regain that sight.

Please stop complaining about these kids, they are playing their hearts out while learning a new system for which they were not directly recruited. I will take every kid in Orange right now over any moron that was lured to PedState. I would take any of these kids over a Rutgers player, recruited via phony comments about other schools. These kids chose to play for the school I could only dream of attending. Syracuse will not pull their scholarships to draw in a better recruit (can you say anyone team in the SEC?), Syracuse keeps its word to the players.

Sorry for being long winded and preachy. Stepping of my soap box.

 

[bcubs9497]

On the post spring depth chart Clark was 2nd string. If we had DE depth he might not even be starting on this D.

WGAS? You don't know what you don't know.

 

[SmilinBob]

This defense WILL get better as the season progresses. The lack of depth, youth and new system are issues yes no doubt but I see some potential there that will progress as they learn and grow. I have faith in this staff that they will be teaching the correct methods and what they want/demand all year and for some that light just doesn't go on as quickly as everyone would like and as we see there is a lot of thinking and reacting and boom 30+ yard play happens due to speed of the opponent O. A lot of kids are struggling with certain aspects of this D and when it becomes second nature there is some talent that will take off with it. Yes, some positions need a bit of an upgrade especially if that light doesn't come on/or upgrade in talent but this lack of depth is giving Babers and staff a chance to see pretty much all the kids on D and what they can do in a live situation. If this staff can recruit after a few blowouts and this sparse crowd and get a decent percentage of their targeted players, I definitely see a winning program in our year 2 or 3 season and from there on.

 

[retro44]

Bull squeeze.

Interesting choice of words....

But this one comes with a 5 year warranty ......But I prefer " Bovine Scatology" just a little more.

 

[JHarris44]

OT but since we're talking D players...From someone with a little experience on social media and having your thoughts being out there, I'd refrain if i were a somewhat high profile football player from posting mean spirited political commentary on Twitter regardless of your beliefs. I'd say post your opinions and healthy debates but name calling is not looked fondly upon by potential potential future employers or fans, etc. When one resorts to cursing and name calling, it's not a good look. For anyone.

 

[bcubs9497]

Not worried about it.

 

[Ringostar57]

Tampa 2 is a little more difficult and intricate defense to pick up. Young players are left on their "islands" to follow and react to the ball. Eventually they will explore and learn every inch of their island and when to paddle over to the next island to help out. Unfortunately we do not have a Lambert or Ham at linebacker...although our linebackers are fast and quick enough to play in this defense; they just need to do a lot more exploring and recognize and react to run/pass plays. First 3 games they have been way too stationary for far too long after the snap with a few misreads. They are still learning how to drift into and close off passing lanes and recognize pass patterns and who is in their zone. Time needed and experience gained will lead to progress. Rome wasn't built in a day!

 

[phil77]

Tampa 2 is a read and react type defense. It can be a headache to learn because for it to be most effective all the players on the field need to read and react the same way. If they don't you can give up monster plays. It will take time for the defense to gel as a unit and once they do they will become more effective. Most glaring example is on the 4th and 1 play. USF gave us a look and not everyone reacted the same to it and left a side of the field wide open. Once they become more familiar with the defense and more importantly with each other those mistakes will not happen.

 

[TheCusian]

I thought Dino was interesting in his presser this week. He kind of tread the normal ground with the offense (it takes a while for it to click, but when it does...) but he included the defense in that same category. I wonder if he's taking about the gap between reading and reacting. Seems like we're late a lot. Some of that is speed (esp vs FL athletes), but I wonder if they are playing tentative esp in the LB and secondary.