Our forwards- some statistics

[NineOneSeven]

*I am not trying to blast any individual player, I am simply giving the facts, drawing conclusions, and then supplying my opinions*

I looked into the #s for our 5 forwards over the 21 games to date. Yes, I am calling Maliq Brown a forward because going into the season he was not one of the 4(!) centers on the roster.

It's widely known that Bell lacks the overall productivity outside of the ability to be a threat from 3pt range, but look at the highlighted numbers. 39 total rebounds on the season. Has had one single ACC game with 3 rebounds (FSU). The most rebounds in a game was against Chaminade (5). Not a single offensive rebound since Gonzaga.

As MikeSU02 has noted many times, Chris has started every single game of his college career. I don't have the historical numbers, but based on what I see during games and what these numbers show, he is probably the worst rebounding forward that gets starting minutes in SU history.

People criticize Justin about his inability to convert basically any shots against equal to better competition and that's 100% valid, but when people ask why he gets minutes, it's because he is a decent rebounder. Maliq is a great rebounder. Benny can be a pretty good rebounder. Q is a great rebounder. Chris has been a key contributor to several wins, but he is a downright awful rebounder, and if the shot is not falling, there is nothing else he is doing outside of the occasional weak side block or transition dunk.

 

[jdubs30]

He isn’t good with the ball nor is he a good passer.

I’m growing tired of his body langue too. There was a play against BC where he was complaining after not getting a foul called on a 3 that his man completely beat him down the court.

He needs to play because we lack depth, and he is by far our best shooter. But man if his shot is off he just a not a contributor.

 

[NineOneSeven]

No offensive rebounds since Gonzaga!!

 

[M2MPrinciples]

Taylor being among our top rebounders is more an indictment of our roster situation than a testament to his ability, IMO. I know that might sound a little harsh, but it's true. If he can't get his shot back or figure out how to drive he should be on an A10 team next season.

 

[baggerbob]

Taylor being among our top rebounders is more an indictment of our roster situation than a testament to his ability, IMO. I know that might sound a little harsh, but it's true. If he can't get his shot back or figure out how to drive he should be on an A10 team next season.

When a guard has more rebounds than either of our starting forwards, there is a problem. Q is actually a guard playing the small forward role. And he is our best one on one defender.

 

[ar inj]

What the stats tell me is that Williams should play more than Taylor because Taylor does nothing on offense and does not need to be guarded. The defender can play way off him and recover in plenty of time assuming Taylor forgets his usual practice of looking around and not knowing what to do or recklessly dribbling into two defenders and then not knowing what to do.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The important thing is, if you want to hate a forward's game on this squad, you have so many options to choose from.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The important thing is, if you want to hate a forward's game on this squad, you have so many options to choose from.

Can we do another thread on guard stats, or more importantly, one for centers? That would be refreshing

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Bell and JT are allergic to offensive rebounding

 

[tbonezone]

i do recall bell having one reallynice block from behind a few games ago but TBH given his size he ain't much help in the paint (1.5 fouls ) . really needs to round out his game. this game ain't all about shooting.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

When a guard has more rebounds than either of our starting forwards, there is a problem.

Yeah, the problem is that we don't start two forwards. We start three guards, a forward, and a body.

 

[Goin' Deep]

There's just something(s) odd about this team.
I believe Judah ,JJ, Brown and Q are guys you'd like to play with.
They have smiles on their faces and seem pretty alert,,and have basketball instincts.
Taylor and Bell...?
I know what I would do with Taylor...he passes the ball Judah, you throw it right back to him.
He passes the ball to Brown, you throw it right back to him. Maybe he'll get the message that for him to score./..HE'S GOTTA SHOOT THE DAMBALL!!!!! Pass Taylor the ball with 4 seconds left on the shot clock. whatever.
Bell?? I dunno...that's between him and Autry. Maybe change his last back to what it was.

 

[Knicks411]

*I am not trying to blast any individual player, I am simply giving the facts, drawing conclusions, and then supplying my opinions*

I looked into the #s for our 5 forwards over the 21 games to date. Yes, I am calling Maliq Brown a forward because going into the season he was not one of the 4(!) centers on the roster.

It's widely known that Bell lacks the overall productivity outside of the ability to be a threat from 3pt range, but look at the highlighted numbers. 39 total rebounds on the season. Has had one single ACC game with 3 rebounds (FSU). The most rebounds in a game was against Chaminade (5). Not a single offensive rebound since Gonzaga.

As MikeSU02 has noted many times, Chris has started every single game of his college career. I don't have the historical numbers, but based on what I see during games and what these numbers show, he is probably the worst rebounding forward that gets starting minutes in SU history.

People criticize Justin about his inability to convert basically any shots against equal to better competition and that's 100% valid, but when people ask why he gets minutes, it's because he is a decent rebounder. Maliq is a great rebounder. Benny can be a pretty good rebounder. Q is a great rebounder. Chris has been a key contributor to several wins, but he is a downright awful rebounder, and if the shot is not falling, there is nothing else he is doing outside of the occasional weak side block or transition dunk.

View attachment 237218

The basketball reference play index has data going back to the 92-93 season, I did a search for all SU forwards career stats since then. I filtered out anyone with under 100 minutes played in their career. That returns a list of 46 players. Bell averages 3.4 reb per 40 for his career. That is last on the list (by a mile), Gbinije is second lowest at 4.9 and he spent a lot of his career at guard. Elijiah Hughes is next on the list at 5.3.


He averages 1.02 assists per 40, good for 43rd out of 46. (Robert Braswell, Bourama Sidibe, and Jeremy McNeil are the 3 below him).

He averages 1.38 stocks (steals+blocks per 40). That is good for 45th out of 46th, only behind Buddy.

He averages 1.23 FTA per 40 minutes, last by a mile. James Southerland is next at 1.99.

 

[Goin' Deep]

The basketball reference play index has data going back to the 92-93 season, I did a search for all SU forwards career stats since then. I filtered out anyone with under 100 minutes played in their career. That returns a list of 46 players. Bell averages 3.4 reb per 40 for his career. That is last on the list (by a mile), Gbinije is second lowest at 4.9 and he spent a lot of his career at guard. Elijiah Hughes is next on the list at 5.3.


He averages 1.02 assists per 40, good for 43rd out of 46. (Robert Braswell, Bourama Sidibe, and Jeremy McNeil are the 3 below him).

He averages 1.38 stocks (steals+blocks per 40). That is good for 45th out of 46th, only behind Buddy.

He averages 1.23 FTA per 40 minutes, last by a mile. James Southerland is next at 1.99.

"I'm pacing myself, Sargeant..."

 

[NineOneSeven]

The basketball reference play index has data going back to the 92-93 season, I did a search for all SU forwards career stats since then. I filtered out anyone with under 100 minutes played in their career. That returns a list of 46 players. Bell averages 3.4 reb per 40 for his career. That is last on the list (by a mile), Gbinije is second lowest at 4.9 and he spent a lot of his career at guard. Elijiah Hughes is next on the list at 5.3.


He averages 1.02 assists per 40, good for 43rd out of 46. (Robert Braswell, Bourama Sidibe, and Jeremy McNeil are the 3 below him).

He averages 1.38 stocks (steals+blocks per 40). That is good for 45th out of 46th, only behind Buddy.

He averages 1.23 FTA per 40 minutes, last by a mile. James Southerland is next at 1.99.

Really great data here. Thanks for sharing this. None of that surprises me. Won't change anything on the court because we are just dumb fans typing words on a fan page, but I hope everyone reads this thread.

The numbers are CRAZY.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The basketball reference play index has data going back to the 92-93 season, I did a search for all SU forwards career stats since then. I filtered out anyone with under 100 minutes played in their career. That returns a list of 46 players. Bell averages 3.4 reb per 40 for his career. That is last on the list (by a mile), Gbinije is second lowest at 4.9 and he spent a lot of his career at guard. Elijiah Hughes is next on the list at 5.3.


He averages 1.02 assists per 40, good for 43rd out of 46. (Robert Braswell, Bourama Sidibe, and Jeremy McNeil are the 3 below him).

He averages 1.38 stocks (steals+blocks per 40). That is good for 45th out of 46th, only behind Buddy.

He averages 1.23 FTA per 40 minutes, last by a mile. James Southerland is next at 1.99.

Did you consider Buddy and then Bourama/McNeil forwards in the search?

 

[MikeSU02]

Really great data here. Thanks for sharing this. None of that surprises me. Won't change anything on the court because we are just dumb fans typing words on a fan page, but I hope everyone reads this thread.

The numbers are CRAZY.

Reality is that JT shouldn't be playing and Bell should be rotation guy at best for specific usage. Again, at best.

Tough spot.

I am guessing there is other stuff with Benny not starting. But I would love for Q to start. I dunno, the pieces just don't fit right now.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

I think some of the Bell criticism is a little misguided. Sure, we'd all love for him to chip in some boards and I hate how quick he is to check out mentally when his shot's not falling, but he's basically the same player Buddy was at this point in terms of size and per 40 stats. If Bell was brought in to rebound the staff would've had him put on 20 pounds.

I get not liking him because he sulks or doesn't drive or move without the ball, but not liking him because he doesn't rebound is akin to not liking a Hyundai because it doesn't go 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Just because we start three guys shorter than him doesn't mean he should be thought of as a forward.

Q should probably start over him, but the real problem is that we don't have better bigs (and/or Bell hasn't added any muscle) and that's not changing until the offseason.

 

[Knicks411]

Did you consider Buddy and then Bourama/McNeil forwards in the search?

It was just using whatever bbref had them coded as, so def not a perfect search but close enough. I cant remember McNeil playing many minutes as a F but he only shows up as a F when I use the play index.

I also just went back and double checked my results, I had the wrong Boeheim on the stocks list; its supposed to be Jimmy not Buddy. Just a brainfart on my part.

 

[Knicks411]

Since i have the download, in case anyone is curious, here are the top/bottom 5 among the SU F (per BBref so send any complaints their way) who played at least 100 minutes since 1992
Stocks
1) Jeremy McNeil
2) Chris McCullough
3) Rick Jackson
4) Rakim Christmas
5) Bourama Sidibe
McNeil and Sidibe didnt play much F at all, Rak/Rick did play some. Wes Johnson is next on the list

42) Ethan Cole
43) Matthew Moyer
44) Cole Swider
45) Chris Bell
46) Jimmy Boeheim

Jeremi Grant was 40th on the list, pretty crazy for a guy who is still a good NBA player.

Reb/40
1) Sidibe
2) Eric Williams (343 minutes)
3) Melo
4) Rick Jackson
5) Kristof Ongeneat
Paul Harris was 6th if you want to remove Williams

42) Lucious Jackson
43) Mookie Jones
44) Elijiah Hughes
45) Michael Gbinjie
46) Chris Bell

Ast/40
1) Michael Gbinjie
2) Paul Harris
3) Ryan Blackwell
4) Scott McCorkle
5) Eric Williams
6) Marek Dolezaj

42) Quincy Guerrerier
43) Chris Bell
44) Robert Braswell
45) Bourama Sidibe
46) Jeremy McNeil

FTA/40
1) Hakim Warrick
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Paul Harris
4) John Wallace
5) Jerami Grant

42) Cole Swider
43) Jeremy McNeil
44) Maliq Brown (eyes emoji)
45) James Southerland
46) Chris Bell

 

[NineOneSeven]

Since i have the download, in case anyone is curious, here are the top/bottom 5 among the SU F (per BBref so send any complaints their way) who played at least 100 minutes since 1992
Stocks
1) Jeremy McNeil
2) Chris McCullough
3) Rick Jackson
4) Rakim Christmas
5) Bourama Sidibe
McNeil and Sidibe didnt play much F at all, Rak/Rick did play some. Wes Johnson is next on the list

42) Ethan Cole
43) Matthew Moyer
44) Cole Swider
45) Chris Bell
46) Jimmy Boeheim

Jeremi Grant was 40th on the list, pretty crazy for a guy who is still a good NBA player.

Reb/40
1) Sidibe
2) Eric Williams (343 minutes)
3) Melo
4) Rick Jackson
5) Kristof Ongeneat
Paul Harris was 6th if you want to remove Williams

42) Lucious Jackson
43) Mookie Jones
44) Elijiah Hughes
45) Michael Gbinjie
46) Chris Bell

Ast/40
1) Michael Gbinjie
2) Paul Harris
3) Ryan Blackwell
4) Scott McCorkle
5) Eric Williams
6) Marek Dolezaj

42) Quincy Guerrerier
43) Chris Bell
44) Robert Braswell
45) Bourama Sidibe
46) Jeremy McNeil

FTA/40
1) Hakim Warrick
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Paul Harris
4) John Wallace
5) Jerami Grant

42) Cole Swider
43) Jeremy McNeil
44) Maliq Brown (eyes emoji)
45) James Southerland
46) Chris Bell

Great data. What do you mean "played 100 minutes"? Total minutes of game time over a career?

 

[Knicks411]

Great data. What do you mean "played 100 minutes"? Total minutes of game time over a career?

Yeah needed to play at least 100 minutes in their career, didnt want someone who came in at the end of games to stand around and do nothing screw up the stats. There were 23 guys who showed up in the initial query who played 100 minutes or fewer. And let me tell you, there are some names on the list!

Bell is now over 1000 minutes, I probably could've made the cutoff closer to 750 or something, would've lost Tautean Thompson, Eric Williams, BJ Johnson, Mookie, amon others

 

[MikeSU02]

Since i have the download, in case anyone is curious, here are the top/bottom 5 among the SU F (per BBref so send any complaints their way) who played at least 100 minutes since 1992
Stocks
1) Jeremy McNeil
2) Chris McCullough
3) Rick Jackson
4) Rakim Christmas
5) Bourama Sidibe
McNeil and Sidibe didnt play much F at all, Rak/Rick did play some. Wes Johnson is next on the list

42) Ethan Cole
43) Matthew Moyer
44) Cole Swider
45) Chris Bell
46) Jimmy Boeheim

Jeremi Grant was 40th on the list, pretty crazy for a guy who is still a good NBA player.

Reb/40
1) Sidibe
2) Eric Williams (343 minutes)
3) Melo
4) Rick Jackson
5) Kristof Ongeneat
Paul Harris was 6th if you want to remove Williams

42) Lucious Jackson
43) Mookie Jones
44) Elijiah Hughes
45) Michael Gbinjie
46) Chris Bell

Ast/40
1) Michael Gbinjie
2) Paul Harris
3) Ryan Blackwell
4) Scott McCorkle
5) Eric Williams
6) Marek Dolezaj

42) Quincy Guerrerier
43) Chris Bell
44) Robert Braswell
45) Bourama Sidibe
46) Jeremy McNeil

FTA/40
1) Hakim Warrick
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Paul Harris
4) John Wallace
5) Jerami Grant

42) Cole Swider
43) Jeremy McNeil
44) Maliq Brown (eyes emoji)
45) James Southerland
46) Chris Bell

Maliq will bump up the more plays are run for him.

I love this.

Is there any site that adjusts for who they were on the floor with? Like Melo is up there for boards and he was out there with Hak! Melo was the epitome of board man gets paid (copyright Kawhi).

I do not count Eric Williams, which reminds me, I miss having a Damone Brown on the team.

Re the assists, when I saw Paul Harris in HS (at his prep, not Niagara Falls), he was basically point forward. He really should not have come here unless he was going to play that same position.

Last point, Chris Bell needs to have a healthier paranoia to be more well-rounded.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I think some of the Bell criticism is a little misguided. Sure, we'd all love for him to chip in some boards and I hate how quick he is to check out mentally when his shot's not falling, but he's basically the same player Buddy was at this point in terms of size and per 40 stats. If Bell was brought here to rebound the staff would've had him put on 20 pounds.

I get not liking him because he sulks or doesn't drive or move without the ball, but not liking him because he doesn't rebound is akin to not liking a Hyundai because it doesn't go 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Just because we start three guys shorter than him doesn't mean he should be thought of as a forward.

Q should probably start over him, but the real problem is that we don't have better bigs (and/or Bell hasn't added any muscle) and that's not changing until the offseason.

That comp to Buddy is kinda interesting.

 

[baggerbob]

Reality is that JT shouldn't be playing and Bell should be rotation guy at best for specific usage. Again, at best.

Tough spot.

I am guessing there is other stuff with Benny not starting. But I would love for Q to start. I dunno, the pieces just don't fit right now.

A totally on dimensional player should never be a starter on a good college team.
Your stats prove how one dimensional Bell really is.