Our O coaches have to go

[kcsu]

Cool kid cant dance. He just doesnt have rhythm in his play calling at all. As to coaching the WR's i see nothing to believe he can do that either. Lets face it he is an average assistant coach who can recruit. We hired him because he can recruit but had to offer him the OC position in order to pay him enough and bring him into the fold. There is no doubt that he is so far in over his head he should wear a snorkle next game.

Adams, Ok i understand he has years of experiance coaching the O-line so lets give him a shot at the D1 level. Oh wait what he has NEVER coached an O-line in his life. Ok sure what the heck lets keep the band together im sure he can learn from cool kid

Smith, other than AAM who is better because he has lost 1000 pounds does it look like A, our running backs are getting better, or B they have regressed. Also his substituions are beyond me. Fourth and one lets go with the scat back behind Hunt simply wow. The poor kid from Georgia looks like he forgot how to play football. One more year of Smith coaching him and he may forget how to put on his pads.

In the short term i would turn the play calling over to Lester as he cant be any worse than two left feet Mcdonald

This has to be fixed. Shafer is going to have to truly grow a set and let some buds go.

 

[RF2044]

It doesn't sound like this NFL front office person agrees with your reactionary perspective--at all. So there's that.

http://syracusefan.com/threads/some-people-arent-going-to-like-hearing-this.80598/

 

[kcsu]

It doesn't sound like this NFL front office person agrees with your reactionary perspective--at all. So there's that.

http://syracusefan.com/threads/some-people-arent-going-to-like-hearing-this.80598/

I dont see one thing in this article that says the NFL guy thought we had good coaching. He is talking about talent and i give him that. A lack of talent and a lack of coaching. Question, what is your opinion of our OC and our coaching in general?

 

[RF2044]

I dont see one thing in this article that says the NFL guy thought we had good coaching. He is talking about talent and i give him that. A lack of talent and a lack of coaching. Question, what is your opinion of our OC and our coaching in general?

We got to 400 yards against a stout, top 10 defense. We need to clean up execution, do a better job of blocking, and avoid unforced mistakes. I don't think that ND having bigger, stronger, faster athletes on both sides of the ball is indicative of coaching ineptitude. We need better players, and more athletic playmakers on offense to close that gap, and fortunately this coaching staff seems to be comprised of guys who excel at recruiting--in particular, the OC that you love to vilify.

I'm much more concerned about our secondary coach than I am about our OC. Your post above breaking down the offensive coaching staff [while curiously leaving others out, such as the WR coach--who is dealing with a limited talent pool, and we know who this is, ahem--I wonder if the limited WR talent has something to do with our play calling], is largely off-target. Adams has coaxed solid performance out of this group. They couldn't push a top 10 defense off the LOS last night. BFD. It doesn't mean that the coach sucks.

You criticize Smith, the RB coach. Well, that's off-target too. Gulley has looked fantastic all year. AAM went form not even being able to see the field to being a guy who has rushed for 100+ yards in a few games, and has broken some long runs. A true frosh is also out there making plays. Oh, but George Morris II--the annoited one--isn't playing well, so Smith's coaching must suck, too.

In terms of the OC, I think that the jury is still out. There isn't an OC coaching at any level that doesn't get criticized for play calling at various times. I don't think that McDonald is perfect--I think that like Hackett--a former offensive coach that you similarly lashed out about, only to later capitulate--far from it. I think he's in a stretch role, and that he's learning on the job. That's what happens when you hire inexperienced coordinators, FYI. But with a little more speed, with a little more explosive playmakers, this offensive system absolutely could work. We're moving the ball now, without having that kind of speed. Watch every other team and see how they use bubble screens effectively, and it isn't difficult to see that a lot of our problems come down to lacking pure athleticism / speed. With better players, a 2 yard gain becomes a 15 yard gain.

Now, if you want to criticize specific things--play calling, red zone execution, penalties, etc. I'm not going to argue with you. All of those things could improve, and our execution could be cleaner. It needs to be cleaner. But I'm not out here with torches and pitchforks every time McDonald makes a play call that I don't agree with. We went toe-to-toe last night with a better team, and didn't look completely overmatched like we did last year against Clemson or FSU. It's okay to be frustrated without freaking out about the coaching.

 

[OttoMets]

Cool kid cant dance. He just doesnt have rhythm in his play calling at all. As to coaching the WR's i see nothing to believe he can do that either. Lets face it he is an average assistant coach who can recruit. We hired him because he can recruit but had to offer him the OC position in order to pay him enough and bring him into the fold. There is no doubt that he is so far in over his head he should wear a snorkle next game.

Adams, Ok i understand he has years of experiance coaching the O-line so lets give him a shot at the D1 level. Oh wait what he has NEVER coached an O-line in his life. Ok sure what the heck lets keep the band together im sure he can learn from cool kid

Smith, other than AAM who is better because he has lost 1000 pounds does it look like A, our running backs are getting better, or B they have regressed. Also his substituions are beyond me. Fourth and one lets go with the scat back behind Hunt simply wow. The poor kid from Georgia looks like he forgot how to play football. One more year of Smith coaching him and he may forget how to put on his pads.

In the short term i would turn the play calling over to Lester as he cant be any worse than two left feet Mcdonald

This has to be fixed. Shafer is going to have to truly grow a set and let some buds go.

I can't fully agree with this; Adam should be given a longer period of time to prove himself (and I'm not sure coaching is the problem; it's apparent that Lasker hurts that group when he's on the field). The running back situation is kind of curious; the young guys seem to have regressed and the substitutions are inconsistent.

I firmly believe that McDonald was and is over his head and is the wrong person for this role. Lester saved last season and should be given the same opportunity this year. This program is in too fragile a state to give a (relatively) large salary and coordinator job to a guy whose talent lies in chatting up 16-year-old kids.

 

[upperdeck]

play calling has issues, but strange calls 10% of the time would even be an over statement. the biggest issue is tempo not the calls.

 

[dasher]

I dont see one thing in this article that says the NFL guy thought we had good coaching. He is talking about talent and i give him that. A lack of talent and a lack of coaching. Question, what is your opinion of our OC and our coaching in general?

You want to make a complete joke of our program. Keep firing our OC's as you would do.

 

[kcsu]

We got to 400 yards against a stout, top 10 defense. We need to clean up execution, do a better job of blocking, and avoid unforced mistakes. I don't think that ND having bigger, stronger, faster athletes on both sides of the ball is indicative of coaching ineptitude. We need better players, and more athletic playmakers on offense to close that gap, and fortunately this coaching staff seems to be comprised of guys who excel at recruiting--in particular, the OC that you love to vilify.

I'm much more concerned about our secondary coach than I am about our OC. Your post above breaking down the offensive coaching staff [while curiously leaving others out, such as the WR coach], is largely off-target. Adams has coaxed solid performance out of this group. They couldn't push a top 10 defense off the LOS last night. BFD. It doesn't mean that the coach sucks.

You criticize Smith, the RB coach. Well, that's off-target too. Gulley has looked fantastic all year. AAM went form not even being able to see the field to being a guy who has rushed for 100+ yards in a few games, and has broken some long runs. A true frosh is also out there making plays. Oh, but George Morris II--the annoited one--isn't playing well, so Smith's coaching must suck, too.

In terms of the OC, I think that the jury is still out. There isn't an OC coaching at any level that doesn't get criticized for play calling at various times. I don't think that McDonald is perfect--I think that like Hackett--a former offensive coach that you similarly lashed out about, only to later capitulate--far from it. I think he's in a stretch role, and that he's learning on the job. That's what happens when you hire inexperienced coordinators, FYI. But with a little more speed, with a little more explosive playmakers, this offensive system absolutely could work. We're moving the ball now, without having that kind of speed. Watch every other team and see how they use bubble screens effectively, and it isn't difficult to see that a lot of our problems come down to lacking pure athleticism / speed. With better players, a 2 yard gain becomes a 15 yard gain.

Now, if you want to criticize specific things--play calling, red zone execution, penalties, etc. I'm not going to argue with you. All of those things could improve, and our execution could be cleaner. It needs to be cleaner. But I'm not out here with torches and pitchforks every time McDonald makes a play call that I don't agree with. We went toe-to-toe last night with a better team, and didn't look completely overmatched like we did last year against Clemson or FSU. It's okay to be frustrated without freaking out about the coaching.

I have criticized our WR coach as it is our OC. We can agree to disagree. I have been watching SU football since the early 60's have had season tickets since i was old enough to buy them. Fly back to most games from CO and travel to many away games. My opinion stays the same. I really believe that this is a poor group of O coaches. The proof is in the product and the product is very suspect. Question what happened to Kobena that he doesnt even make the travel squad. Why doesnt Alvin get some run as all he does it get open and catch the ball. Did Custis get hurt? How about Hickey im glad he stayed around to be coached up by Adams. Lets just disagree and leave it at that as i respect your opinion but i do not agree with it.

 

[kcsu]

I can't fully agree with this; Adam should be given a longer period of time to prove himself (and I'm not sure coaching is the problem; it's apparent that Lasker hurts that group when he's on the field). The running back situation is kind of curious; the young guys seem to have regressed and the substitutions are inconsistent.

I firmly believe that McDonald was and is over his head and is the wrong person for this role. Lester saved last season and should be given the same opportunity this year. This program is in too fragile a state to give a (relatively) large salary and coordinator job to a guy whose talent lies in chatting up 16-year-old kids.

Well put. Also why cant we pay McDonald to recruit. Why do we have to hide his pay with a title and job that he is clearly not capable of doing? I mean recruiting is as important as coaching so give the guy great pay let him coach the WR's and bring in an OC who knows what he is doing

 

[RF2044]

I have criticized our WR coach as it is our OC. We can agree to disagree. I have been watching SU football since the early 60's have had season tickets since i was old enough to buy them. Fly back to most games from CO and travel to many away games. My opinion stays the same. I really believe that this is a poor group of O coaches. The proof is in the product and the product is very suspect. Question what happened to Kobena that he doesnt even make the travel squad. Why doesnt Alvin get some run as all he does it get open and catch the ball. Did Custis get hurt? How about Hickey im glad he stayed around to be coached up by Adams. Lets just disagree and leave it at that as i respect your opinion but i do not agree with it.

That's fair--agree to disagree. I do know that you're a big fan [which is sometimes why I get frustrated with your posting about the coaches every year], but clearly we aren't going to change each other's minds. Have a good day.

 

[retro44]

I like they way the offense was called in the second half.....was somebody else calling the shots after halftime?

 

[kcsu]

That's fair--agree to disagree. I do know that you're a big fan [which is sometimes why I get frustrated with your posting about the coaches every year], but clearly we aren't going to change each other's minds.

I like Shaf and believe that he is going to grow into a great HC. I just dont like having Guys with No experiance on the O side in the OC and OL coach.

 

[007]

I dont see one thing in this article that says the NFL guy thought we had good coaching. He is talking about talent and i give him that. A lack of talent and a lack of coaching. Question, what is your opinion of our OC and our coaching in general?

Yeah, he did. CIL was asked directly in that thread about the NFL front office guys take on our coaching. This was his reply:

"He did. He liked Bullough's scheme and though we did a pretty good job there. It's not Bullough's fault Whigham couldn't keep up with ND. He said offensively it was really tough to tell because their front did a really good job disrupting our run game. Clearly ND did not respect our WR's as they played a ton of man press with a single high a ton. Hunt's deep throws were really, really, good. Except for the overthrow to Estime, our guys clearly had difficulty separating from their defenders. The pick he threw was kind of a bad throw, but he did point out that the safety held Estime coming out of his break and it wasn't called.

His specific comment to me was "it's really tough to tell when your guys can't beat the other guys. Sometimes it's as simple as there Joes are just better than your Joes." It's a pretty simple way to say that coaching can only do so much. We'd all like to think that if a the right staff came along we'd be top 25 overnight. We just don't have those guys yet.

In the last 10 years of our program, we have had 1 QB, 1 RB, and 2 WR's drafted. None higher than the 4th round. LSU had 1 QB, 2 RB's, and 3WR's DRAFTED LAST YEAR! That needs to change if we want to make the next leap."

Not trying to change your mind kc. But add me to the list that disagrees with your opinion - for whatever that's worth.

 

[kcsu]

Yeah, he did. CIL was asked directly in that thread about the NFL front office guys take on our coaching. This was his reply:

"He did. He liked Bullough's scheme and though we did a pretty good job there. It's not Bullough's fault Whigham couldn't keep up with ND. He said offensively it was really tough to tell because their front did a really good job disrupting our run game. Clearly ND did not respect our WR's as they played a ton of man press with a single high a ton. Hunt's deep throws were really, really, good. Except for the overthrow to Estime, our guys clearly had difficulty separating from their defenders. The pick he threw was kind of a bad throw, but he did point out that the safety held Estime coming out of his break and it wasn't called.

His specific comment to me was "it's really tough to tell when your guys can't beat the other guys. Sometimes it's as simple as there Joes are just better than your Joes." It's a pretty simple way to say that coaching can only do so much. We'd all like to think that if a the right staff came along we'd be top 25 overnight. We just don't have those guys yet.

In the last 10 years of our program, we have had 1 QB, 1 RB, and 2 WR's drafted. None higher than the 4th round. LSU had 1 QB, 2 RB's, and 3WR's DRAFTED LAST YEAR! That needs to change if we want to make the next leap."

Not trying to change your mind kc. But add me to the list that disagrees with your opinion - for whatever that's worth.

Great coaches plan for the talent that they have. Shafer knows that he doesnt have a dominant front 4 and he coaches around it. He is a very good d coach gets the most out of his players and almost always the D keeps us in games. Name one time that cool kid has done that?

 

[RF2044]

Great coaches plan for the talent that they have. Shafer knows that he doesnt have a dominant front 4 and he coaches around it. He is a very good d coach gets the most out of his players and almost always the D keeps us in games. Name one time that cool kid has done that?

Minnesota, in the bowl game.

 

[OttoMets]

Minnesota, in the bowl game.

I think that was Lester.

 

[RF2044]

I think that was Lester.

Whereas I think that it was the offensive coaching staff, formulating a strong game plan, getting the team prepared, and collectively getting the job done.

 

[OttoMets]

Whereas I think that it was the offensive coaching staff, formulating a strong game plan, getting the team prepared, and collectively getting the job done.

Certainly credit for successes should be spread around. But the other poster asked when McDonald coached to his players' abilities; you cited the Minnesota game. My understanding (and I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) is that Lester took over the game-planning and play-calling for the final two games of the season. So while McDonald contributed to a winning team effort against Minnesota, I'm not sure if that's the best example of his having coached around his players' strengths. He struggled with that for a lot of the year; that's part of the reason his boss delegated his responsibilities to someone else.

 

[007]

Great coaches plan for the talent that they have. Shafer knows that he doesnt have a dominant front 4 and he coaches around it. He is a very good d coach gets the most out of his players and almost always the D keeps us in games. Name one time that cool kid has done that?

The issue under debate here was not whether GM is a "great" coach. The argument is whether GM sucks (or "can't dance" or has to go or whatever other characterization you have this week) relative to the talent he has on the roster. To be clear, I do think that GM is on a steep learning curve, but you significantly underestimate the talent factor, IMO.

If the measure (today anyway), is that Shafer and D are very good coaches b/c they always keep us in games, let's look at offensive and defiensive efficiency as one way of quantifying that. Efficiency is a formula measuring the contribution to scoring margin on all its plays, adjusted for strength of opposing defenses or offenses faced.

Syracuse is currently ranked 66th nationally in Defensive efficiency.

Syracuse is currently ranked 65th nationally in Offensive efficiency.

Seems like there is enough blame to go around for both sides of the ball. And, we are just starting to face the meat of the schedule.

 

[RF2044]

Certainly credit for successes should be spread around. But the other poster asked when McDonald coached to his players' abilities; you cited the Minnesota game. My understanding (and I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) is that Lester took over the game-planning and play-calling for the final two games of the season. So while McDonald contributed to a winning team effort against Minnesota, I'm not sure if that's the best example of his having coached around his players' strengths. He struggled with that for a lot of the year; that's part of the reason his boss delegated his responsibilities to someone else.

Coaching is multi-dimensional. There is the formulation of a gameplan / strategy. There is getting the players prepared to execute the game plan. There is in game stuff, including adjustments [Xs and Os]. And there is recruiting.

The minnesota game was an example of the offensive coaching staff doing a lot of very solid things, against a team that had whipped us the year before and were comfortable favorites. Our kids were ready to play, and we took it to them offensively for the majority of the game, which we controlled from the opening kickoff until late in the 4th quarter, when we gave up some big plays. It wasn't just about play calling--which is what everybody seems to focus on.

Look, I'm not suggesting that McDonald is anywhere near perfect. I think he got hired into a stretch role, given that he was a career WR coach, because we desperately needed to bring in somebody who was a bulldog recruiter. I think he's learning on the job. And I think he's made his share of mistakes. But on the other hand, I think he's working with personnel limitations. He's taken a QB who nobody else recruited and got to a bowl last year with him. We seem to be recruiting well--which is important, as the entire roster needs an infusion of improved athleticism / talent.

I can live with growing pains. I don't think he is nearly the liability many would like to believe. I'm very interested in seeing what he [and Hunt] would be able to do with a few more playmaking weapons. True frosh like Philips and Ishmael seem like a step in the right direction.

 

[OttoMets]

Coaching is multi-dimensional. There is the formulation of a gameplan / strategy. There is getting the players prepared to execute the game plan. There is in game stuff, including adjustments [Xs and Os]. And there is recruiting.

The minnesota game was an example of the offensive coaching staff doing a lot of very solid things, against a team that had whipped us the year before and were comfortable favorites. Our kids were ready to play, and we took it to them offensively for the majority of the game, which we controlled from the opening kickoff until late in the 4th quarter, when we gave up some big plays. It wasn't just about play calling--which is what everybody seems to focus on.

Look, I'm not suggesting that McDonald is anywhere near perfect. I think he got hired into a stretch role, given that he was a career WR coach, because we desperately needed to bring in somebody who was a bulldog recruiter. I think he's learning on the job. And I think he's made his share of mistakes. But on the other hand, I think he's working with personnel limitations. He's taken a QB who nobody else recruited and got to a bowl last year with him. We seem to be recruiting well--which is important, as the entire roster needs an infusion of improved athleticism / talent.

I can live with growing pains. I don't think he is nearly the liability many would like to believe. I'm very interested in seeing what he [and Hunt] would be able to do with a few more playmaking weapons. True frosh like Philips and Ishmael seem like a step in the right direction.

That's all reasonable. I agree.

I'm just less patient and less confident that these are truly growing pains and not an inability to do the job. But we'll need a couple years to see how he adjusts. Here's hoping that I can eat some crow in coming months.

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

I have a name for you that might solve a few problems. Matt Mattox is Bowling Greens co-offensive coordinator, an oline coach and an Art Briles disciple. I imagine we could get him and keep McDonald. Move Adam back to defense and put Mattox in his current position. Check him out.

 

[Crusty]

The question is who probably knows how to evaluate another coach better?
A. Another coach with over 2o years experience?
B. A fan who really doesn't know the first thing about coaching?

 

[supp]

This has to be fixed. Shafer is going to have to truly grow a set and let some buds go.

Three possible outcomes if the problems on offense continue all year, from least likely to most likely: 1) McDonald bails out Shafer and leaves for similar money to be a recruiter at a southern school with Lester taking over 2) Beckman gets fired and Cubit comes over as co-OC with McDonald, following typical post-season assistant coach shuffle 3) Everything stays the same.

Loyalty and comfort level usually conspire against turning on your own and bringing in someone from outside your coaching circle. Shafer has already been on the wrong side of that equation once at Michigan so I'm sure he's even more against it than other coaches might be.

 

[SUbear]

play calling has issues, but strange calls 10% of the time would even be an over statement. the biggest issue is tempo not the calls.

Play calling is an issue and has been under Mc. The scheme of last nights offense was totally wrong, Notre Dame strength is lateral movement and pursuit we played into their strength by running the ball laterally, the only way to attack that defense is to run straight at them, which the few times we actually did had some success, should have been running right at them all game.
We are running that stupid bubble screen way too much, and frankly it has gained almost nothing so why would you keep doing it to the extent you are. It makes no sense. It too played into their lateral pursuit.
We had our biggest success with downfield passing, but only did that once in the whole first half. Someone has no clue on how to Analize and attack opposing defenses.
We may still have lost, but we could have been much more competitive. After all the defense turned them over five times, so I do not want to hear anything about our defenses short comings, the defense did enough that we could have easily won the game. The offense is and has been the problem. We may not have the overall offensive talent, but we have some talent that is just not being appropriately used.
If nothing is changed in that regard it is going to be a disaster of a season, and believe me I do not want that to be the case.
Shafer, being a defensive coaching specialist needed to hire an experienced OC, which he did not and that is going to be this teams and perhaps Shafer downfall.