Patriots' "eligible Tackle" maneuver

[Orangeman]

I'm sorry. Where does it say you can't bounce back and forth?

It's right here…this is directly from the online NFL rulebook…you'll see "Immediately" which is defined as pre-huddle in other sections as well as "he must participate in such eligible or ineligible position as long as he is continuously in the game, but must report still prior to each play"…the NFL recognizes that an offense could fool the defense and put this rule in to stop the strategy, but it wasn't enforced in this situation because Vereen switched back to RB with no penalty (on plays 9 and 10 from the 5 yard line):

REPORTING CHANGE OF POSITION

Article 1An offensive player wearing the number of an ineligible pass receiver (50-79 and 90-99) is permitted

to line up in the position of an eligible pass receiver (1-49 and 80-89), and an offensive player wearing the

number of an eligible pass receiver is permitted to line up in the position of an ineligible pass receiver,

provided that he immediately reports the change in his eligibility status to the Referee, who will inform the

defensive team.

He must participate in such eligible or ineligible position as long as he is continuously in the game, but prior to

each play he must again report his status to the Referee, who will inform the defensive team. The game

clock shall not be stopped, and the ball shall not be put in play until the Referee takes his normal position.

 

[CuseIsInTheHouse]

I know we got some great posters on this site but my tendency is to side with the NFL when they say it was legit. http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/201...riots-substitutions-vs-baltimore-ravens-legal

@MikeReiss: Referee Bill Vinovich couldn't have been more clear in announcing at stadium that certain receivers were ineligible and not to cover them.

There are reports from fans in stadium saying it was announced each time too.

 

[CuseIsInTheHouse]

RETURNING TO ORIGINAL POSITION

Article 2A player who has reported a change in his eligibility status to the Referee is permitted to return to a

position indicated by the eligibility status of his number after:

(a) a team timeout;

(b) the end of a quarter;

(c) the two-minute warning;

(d) a foul;

(e) a replay challenge;

(f) a touchdown;

(g) a completed kick from scrimmage;

(h) a change of possession; or

(i) if the player has been withdrawn for one legal snap. A player withdrawn for one legal snap may reenter

at a position indicated by the eligibility status of his number, unless he again reports to the

Referee that he is assuming a position other than that designated by the eligibility status of his

number.

OFFICIAL



Are you a Pats fan and just don't want to hear it any arguments, or are you a non-Patriots fan who knows that this is correct everything was legal? What's you bias here?

I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose.

 

[Bayside44]

there is no such thing as the spirit of the rule. Either it is legal or it isn't. This is professional football not some sowing circle.

You have the Greg Schiano it's never over defense...which is exactly that.

This seems a little douchey to me.

 

[dasher]

You have the Greg Schiano it's never over defense...which is exactly that.

This seems a little douchey to me.

Bayside, Apples and Oranges. One is playing the game and the other is a safety issue.

 

[Bayside44]

Bayside, Apples and Oranges. One is playing the game and the other is a safety issue.

But "in the spirit of the game" the game is over, even when the clock is running.

Dallas could've pulled that stunt today on Rogers (they never would...)

NE also threw a challenge flag against the NYG on a defensive substitution in the last bowl the lost to the Giants because a player didn't run off the field fast enough.

It's stuff like that and what happened to Dallas (haha) which I hate about the NFL.

 

[dasher]

But "in the spirit of the game" the game is over, even when the clock is running.

Dallas could've pulled that stunt today on Rogers (they never would...)

NE also threw a challenge flag against the NYG on a defensive substitution in the last bowl the lost to the Giants because a player didn't run off the field fast enough.

It's stuff like that and what happened to Dallas (haha) which I hate about the NFL.

I am a Giants fan and did not hold that against the Pats one bit. Get off the field. I think there is a big difference in game playing and trying to hurt your opponent. I think the league and it's members also see the difference.

 

[CIL]

It was legal. I also think it was semi douchey but legal. The NFL will need to address this in the offseason. The issue is that defensive packages are called in from the sideline as soon as the offensive personnel are ID'd from the booth. So if 2 rb's, 2 WR's, and a TE are Runni gin you can send out your base D. 3 WR's etc, here comes the nickel package.

The defense needs to have a fair chance, IMO, especially with a lot of the rules now stacked against them. No huddle, contact against receivers, etc.

 

[RF2044]

It's right here…this is directly from the online NFL rulebook…you'll see "Immediately" which is defined as pre-huddle in other sections as well as "he must participate in such eligible or ineligible position as long as he is continuously in the game, but must report still prior to each play"…the NFL recognizes that an offense could fool the defense and put this rule in to stop the strategy, but it wasn't enforced in this situation because Vereen switched back to RB with no penalty (on plays 9 and 10 from the 5 yard line):

REPORTING CHANGE OF POSITION

Article 1An offensive player wearing the number of an ineligible pass receiver (50-79 and 90-99) is permitted

to line up in the position of an eligible pass receiver (1-49 and 80-89), and an offensive player wearing the

number of an eligible pass receiver is permitted to line up in the position of an ineligible pass receiver,

provided that he immediately reports the change in his eligibility status to the Referee, who will inform the

defensive team.

He must participate in such eligible or ineligible position as long as he is continuously in the game, but prior to

each play he must again report his status to the Referee, who will inform the defensive team. The game

clock shall not be stopped, and the ball shall not be put in play until the Referee takes his normal position.

ESPN reported on the bottom ticker that league officials have weighed in, and declared that the Patriots actions and reporting were both legal and within the rules.

So much for that.

 

[Bayside44]

I am a Giants fan and did not hold that against the Pats one bit. Get off the field. I think there is a big difference in game playing and trying to hurt your opponent. I think the league and it's members also see the difference.

It had nothing to do with the play at hand , but when you're gonna lose I guess those are the things a coach resorts to. I'm just not a fan of gaming the game in general.

 

[djcon57]

Was talking with a buddy about this today while watching the games.

I have no beef with it necessarily, but feels like when you play fantasy football and someone pulls a weird trade that's legal and everyone's pissed for the first couple of days then later bummed out that they figured out a loophole in the rules.

Is what it is. BB is just smarter, better.

 

[Orangeman]

ESPN reported on the bottom ticker that league officials have weighed in, and declared that the Patriots actions and reporting were both legal and within the rules. So much for that.

I don't trust/believe league officials at all.

Vereen is not allowed to remain on the field for the following play as a RB. That play/formation might have been legal, but the execution of the overall strategy violated the rules as quoted in this thread.

Aside from that, I can't wait till next year teams go five wide and on the way to the line one of the WRs informs the official he is ineligible. Gonna be fun

 

[elimunelson]

BB Smarter/Better than most. I was at the game and it was loudly announced over the PA what was happening. Alot of head scratching from the neanderthals in section 329 along with me because it was odd hearing 34 was ineligible.

This is playing football and figuring out a way to move the ball forward within the rules. Maybe they should get rid of the WR option pass too b/c the Ravens weren't ready for that as well and it was totally gimmicky!

I just wish wish wish my Orange would have the ingenuity to do these types of awesome football winning plays.

 

[Scooch]

I don't trust/believe league officials at all. Vereen is not allowed to remain on the field for the following play as a RB. That play/formation might have been legal, but the execution of the overall strategy violated the rules as quoted in this thread. Aside from that, I can't wait till next year teams go five wide and on the way to the line one of the WRs informs the official he is ineligible. Gonna be fun

Do you really think that for something that BB and McDaniels spent considerable time devising and practicing in preparation for a playoff game that they'd get the substitution rule wrong?

There's no rule that a player with a eligible # (Vereen) needs to be removed from the game to re-enter as eligible/ineligible.

You have that wrong.

I believe this is what upperdeck's gripe is, and that's something that may be addressed in the offseason.

 

[Melancer46]

It was legal, but the real issue that Harbaugh has isn't that he thought it was against the rules or that they didn't report as ineligible. His issue was that Brady would snap the ball immediately after the announcement, so that the Ravens had no chance to realize they didn't need to cover the ineligible guy and then find the eligible guy.

When the offense makes a substitution, they must give the defense a chance to make a substitution as well. It sounded like Harbaugh's issue was that the Patriots basically used this as a way to make substitutions of who is eligible and who isn't without technically making a substitution, so they therefore didn't need to give the Ravens time.

Now if the only player that was ineligible for that drive was Vereen, that's different, but Harbaugh's statements seemed to imply that the Patriots were switching between Vereen and the tight end (whose name I will not attempt to spell) if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[WalnutPark]

This formation has Ernie Adams written all over it. Adams went to prep school with Belichick at Phillips Andover and they've been football junkies together ever since. Adams was the QB coach under Ray Perkins with the Giants pre-Parcells, then went and worked on Wall Street. Brilliant guy who has been with the Patriots since Belichick took over. He's not on their coaching staff but he's in the booth during games etc This is the type of thing he would spend hundreds of hours figuring if it was legal, researching it, investigating it and implementing it.

 

[Orangeman]

Do you really think that for something that BB and McDaniels spent considerable time devising and practicing in preparation for a playoff game that they'd get the substitution rule wrong?

There's no rule that a player with a eligible # (Vereen) needs to be removed from the game to re-enter as eligible/ineligible.

You have that wrong.

I believe this is what upperdeck's gripe is, and that's something that may be addressed in the offseason.

Well, then the Official NFL Rulebook as posted on the Interwebs has it wrong. I've copied & pasted the direct line from the rulebook here. The first sentence of the second paragraph specifically states that an eligible player must play as the same (eligible or ineligible) while he is a continuous player after he reports to change his status. I take no offense, but I believe yesterday you challenged my reading comprehension, that's exactly what the rule says below, so either there is a rule or the rulebook posted online is wrong.

As it relates to BB and McDaniels, I addressed this topic earlier in the thread and I agree: they likely know the rule, and orchestrated it fairly well...on the play in between the disputed formations, they removed Manatee and Vereen from the game bringing in Bolden as the RB.

However, they forgot to remove Vereen from the game for the final two plays inside the 10...he was a continuous player, and switched BACK from ineligible to eligible after declaring on the prior two plays, which is a clear violation of the rule stated below. I think they probably just got carried away there.

The rule seems clearly put in place to avoid this type of deception, although in this instance it actually didn't impact the game. Ironically, it really didn't impact the game because they were back in their normal formation anyway, but that doesn't change that they broke a rule and it wasn't called. Unless the rules posted on the official NFL website are inaccurate.




REPORTING CHANGE OF POSITION

Article 1An offensive player wearing the number of an ineligible pass receiver (50-79 and 90-99) is permitted

to line up in the position of an eligible pass receiver (1-49 and 80-89), and an offensive player wearing the

number of an eligible pass receiver is permitted to line up in the position of an ineligible pass receiver,

provided that he immediately reports the change in his eligibility status to the Referee, who will inform the

defensive team.

He must participate in such eligible or ineligible position as long as he is continuously in the game, but prior to

each play he must again report his status to the Referee, who will inform the defensive team. The game

clock shall not be stopped, and the ball shall not be put in play until the Referee takes his normal position.

 

[TBCuse11]

Did he break the rule...no. Is it in the spirit of the rule...no.

It's low class but not against the rules. They will now have to change the rule next year.

i think every sports fan in America, outside of Pats fans, know that Billy Boy is about as classless as they come. Hey, he hasnt won in a dozen year since he last cheated. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Note: i am aware he did not cheat this week.

 

[Orangeman]

It was legal, but the real issue that Harbaugh has isn't that he thought it was against the rules or that they didn't report as ineligible. His issue was that Brady would snap the ball immediately after the announcement, so that the Ravens had no chance to realize they didn't need to cover the ineligible guy and then find the eligible guy.

When the offense makes a substitution, they must give the defense a chance to make a substitution as well. It sounded like Harbaugh's issue was that the Patriots basically used this as a way to make substitutions of who is eligible and who isn't without technically making a substitution, so they therefore didn't need to give the Ravens time.

Now if the only player that was ineligible for that drive was Vereen, that's different, but Harbaugh's statements seemed to imply that the Patriots were switching between Vereen and the tight end (whose name I will not attempt to spell) if my memory serves me correctly.

Yes, I forgot to mention this...this was another, tangible violation of the rules.

Manatee switched from play-to-play as an ineligible on one play (completion to Edelmann) then switched back to Eligible the next play where he caught the pass down to the 10. You're not supposed to be able to do that, even if you report it. He has an eligible number, reported in as ineligible for the first play (according to the press reports of what happened on the field...I can't confirm whether those reports are true because when watching the replay you can't hear the ref declare who's eligible).

This was on plays 7 & 8 of the drive. This is an instance where actually BB may not have known the rule, if the switching occurred as reported.

 

[javadoc]

Do you really think that for something that BB and McDaniels spent considerable time devising and practicing in preparation for a playoff game that they'd get the substitution rule wrong?

There's no rule that a player with a eligible # (Vereen) needs to be removed from the game to re-enter as eligible/ineligible.

You have that wrong.

I believe this is what upperdeck's gripe is, and that's something that may be addressed in the offseason.

I don't follow the NFL, and could not care less who won the game. I didn't watch it, haven't looked for highlights. But this has been a great thread.

I have read the snippets of some rulebook(s?) that have been posted. I do not know if they are the current official NFL rules. Assuming they are...

I have read the description of the series in question, play-by-play. Assuming it is accurate...

It's a penalty. I have no dog in this fight whatsoever. Purely parsing the rules. It's a penalty.

I would like someone to ask the officials specifically about the issue of maintaining eligible/ineligible status. I have a feeling that none of the "officials" on record have addressed that aspect of the series. The Patriots would seem to have been too clever by half.

 

[Orangeman]

i think every sports fan in America, outside of Pats fans, know that Billy Boy is about as classless as they come. Hey, he hasnt won in a dozen year since he last cheated. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Note: i am aware he did not cheat this week.

I don't know that he's Classless. I actually have a lot of respect for him, in theory, which is hard to admit given his support for the New England Patriots and (Gasp) the Johns Hopkins Blue Jays Lacrosse team.

But in this instance, I think he got too creative and missed a piece. I am revising my analysis...there were three violations:
1) On Play 8, Manatee switched ineligible (having reported the prior play, per media) to eligible and received a pass. Violation
2) On Play 8, Vereen reported to the official AFTER the huddle, on the way to his position...the rules are CLEAR that you must report BEFORE the huddle, or IMMEDIATELY. The language explains that if there is a huddle you must report before the huddle. This is the only subjective violation of the three, however, I will grant that
3) Vereen remained on the field as a CONTINUOUS player on plays 9 & 10 and became eligible after reporting ineligible on play 8.

For those who don't want to scroll up, here's what would have had to happen for either Manatee or Vereen to become eligible again after reporting as an ineligible while wearing an eligible number. Bottom line, once again the league has rushed out a ridiculous denial that really calls into question their mgmt structure.

RETURNING TO ORIGINAL POSITION

Article 2A player who has reported a change in his eligibility status to the Referee is permitted to return to a

position indicated by the eligibility status of his number after:

(a) a team timeout;

(b) the end of a quarter;

(c) the two-minute warning;

(d) a foul;

(e) a replay challenge;

(f) a touchdown;

(g) a completed kick from scrimmage;

(h) a change of possession; or

(i) if the player has been withdrawn for one legal snap. A player withdrawn for one legal snap may reenter

at a position indicated by the eligibility status of his number, unless he again reports to the

Referee that he is assuming a position other than that designated by the eligibility status of his

number.

OFFICIAL

 

[dasher]

i think every sports fan in America, outside of Pats fans, know that Billy Boy is about as classless as they come. Hey, he hasnt won in a dozen year since he last cheated. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Note: i am aware he did not cheat this week.

silly. As a Giant fan I can tell you that BB came as close to winning twice after spygate as you can get. And the three he won, he came as close to losing. The difference sure wasn't some stupid video taping he did.

 

[cuseincincy]

IMO Harbaugh and the Ravens were just unprepared. Even if he had not reported as "ineligible" he would still have been an ineligible receiver because he was covered by the outside WR who was also on the LOS.

 

[Melancer46]

IMO Harbaugh and the Ravens were just unprepared. Even if he had not reported as "ineligible" he would still have been an ineligible receiver because he was covered by the outside WR who was also on the LOS.

You still have to defend them if they aren't reported as being ineligible. If the Patriots got a touchdown because the refs didn't notice that he was ineligible but the Ravens did, they never would have lived it down. Not to mention the guy that went to line up with him would have had to look at everyone else in the formation to process the fact that Vereen was lining up in a spot that made him ineligible.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The play is legal. The NFL ruled it legal. Harbaugh is mad because Belichick outsmarted him. Belichick stole this from Saban and Alabama. Bama did this to LSU earlier this year.

I guarantee if this wasn't the Patriots and say Denver ran it, everyone would be saying how smart Peyton Manning is. Since its Belichick and Brady, half the country is pissed.