Season to date thoughts...

[Jake]

So here's my take on the season to date.

We're kinda where I thought we'd be, with maybe one more loss than expected. Some things are better than expected, some are worse.

Offensively, if it weren't for AW3, we'd be a disaster. It's what concerns me most. Good defensive teams will provide problems for us - and we've got some weaknesses that I think can get better, but it's going to take time. We've got good pieces, but we don't have a "pro" right now. That's a problem...someone needs to step up their game and be a go to guy.

Defensively, we will figure it out. Especially with Battle at the top of the zone. The one skill he has that is above average for a frosh is his athleticism and defensive motor.

Here's the good:

DaJuan Coleman has finally figured it out. As a kid with bad knees who can't elevate, he's abandoned his post-up game and focused on knocking down 8-10 footers in open space. If he can make 2-3 j's a game and rebound on the defensive end of the court, he'll have given us what we need.

Aw3. He is obviously as good as advertised. He's a great shooter who's going to be asked to take on more of the scoring load as conference games begin. There will be games where's going to force shots. We're going to have to live with it.

TThompson. He's been a pleasant surprise. Still too thin to bang in the ACC for 25 minutes, but he can be effective in spurts.

Here's the bad:

The Tyler twins.

Probably the best and worst thing that happened last year was Lydon's success. It got us to a FF, but it built up unrealistic expectations for him this year. He's still an undersized 5 - stretch 4...whose perimeter game is much better than his inside game. He's getting tossed around inside and he needs to get stronger. He's put on weight, but it doesn't look like good weight. He isn't nearly as efficient as we need him to be inside. It sure looks like a player that needs another year.

Roberson. Ugh. I really feel awful for the kid. There's been pressure on him to be an NBA'er since high school. And the belief is that he needs to hit 15 footers to do so. But he can't. So there's this never ending friction between the coach who wants him to attack the glass and the player who wants to make the league. Coach is always going to win this one...and the coach is right on this one. If Robey would just rebound and hustle, there's a better chance of him getting a contract...and everyone wins. Coleman has figured out how to be effective - Robey still hasn't.

Chukwu: For a 7-2 kid, he has to get better at understanding how to maximize his height. Chasing people 40 feet from the basket isn't one of them. His shotblocking instincts are shockingly bad for his size. I knew we wouldn't get much offense from him, but his defense has been worst tvan imagined.

The so-so:

The PGs. Frank has shown spurts- better shooting and gives us size at the top of the zone. But his inability to finish at the rim or convert FTs are troublesome. Good defenders have also forced him to puck up his dribble- which stagnates the offense.

Gillon can shoot and run a team, but the size and athleticism of opposing guards have shown why he wasn't recruited at this level originally. He can't close out on shooters at 5-9 and players pass right over him. His FT shooting will earn him time in crunch time.

The unknown:

Tyus Battle. Battle is the wildcard that I think can give us an extra gear. He's shot the ball very well against the mid majors, but has struggled to get good looks from the perimeter against real teams. It's fools gold and I don't expect that to change this year. I'd like to see him attack the basket from the wings. Defensively, he's probably going to draw the opposing SF, because White doesn't attack the rim and can be checked by the opposing two. I think Tyus can be more effective with his very good handle against a "3", instead of shooting over them.

I think JB made a wise move getting him at the top of the zone where he can defend and get some run outs.

We are going to need to get some baskets outside of the half court sets. If not, we are going to struggle a bit.

 

[EastCoast2]

Agree with just about everything, and it's hard to argue any counter-points. If AW3 went elsewhere, this might be the worst offensive team in a long, long time. We thought the 2013 team was offensively challenged, and rode our 2-3 zone to the Final Four. And that team had a junior CJ Fair, senior Triche, and Southerland.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Great post.

There is a LOT we need to get better at to be any sort of contender.

 

[orangefan13]

Great post.

Agree, Lydon strikes me as a weird situation.
I hope you are right about another year. Its sad that he may never get to play next to a good defensive center, because if he was next to Keita or Fab, or senior Rak, he would be an absolute beast. Sucks how these things work out for us sometimes. imo With a good defensive center next to Lydon it wouldn't even matter who was on the other side of the zone.

With Dajuan stepping it up offensively, Lydon's best offensive position has just moved from center to the four. I wonder if its more about lydon's armstrength then it is about weight when it comes to rebounding and finishing buckets 8 feet and in. Tipping rebounds is better suited for Center then forward.

Still curious if Thompson will switch to the four as the season goes along. I see a little otto porter cj fair in him, and his bounce is good enough to play pf instead of center. Lydon can man the five.

Gillon is having trouble with the most basic things.
1.He runs the offense from way to far back beyond the three point line.
2.He has trouble throwing entry passes against taller guards unlike howard.
3.He isn't getting in the lane and drawing a double before finding the open man (slow down some in the lane)
4.He has trouble making good things out of the pic and role.
5. imo my worse fear is he is one of those pg's that needs four scorers around him, and has to outscore opponents offensively. Well what do you do? Dajuan starts, you could always bring lydon off the bench instead of roberson, but what if dajuan gets a quick foul inside?
By comparison Howard only needs three offensively, and hes better defensively as well, just something to ponder. Not a bad thing, but the patience for Gillon and Roberson being on the floor together may be dwindling.

I hope Roberson is good enough to play momentum changing 6th man with his rebounding.

White moves from sg to sf and immediately doubles his average. Great move.
Glad to see Battle coming out of his shell.

 

[Newhouser]

I agree regarding Lydon's weight. It doesn't seem to be good weight. he isn't stronger and he isn't (or at least hasn't demonstrated it yet) as explosive as he looked last year off the floor.

 

[realorange]

I agree with just about everything you said Jake.

I'd add one thing. I just don't get the feeling of good chemistry with the team. It's rarely seen, except in spurts.

I also wonder if there is some dissension (even in a minor way) on the team with two new guys coming in and breaking the bond that was there from last year.

 

[SoBristol]

Great report -- but with the caution that one game (NF) does not make a trend. Battle had his best game, and maybe that will continue now that he is a starter. Coleman also had his best game, and earned extra minutes -- and we will have to see if he can get open and hit jumpers regularly.

Agree on Tyler Lydon -- expectations got ahead of his actual play. He is a solid, valuable player -- and maybe his skills inside the paint will improve. As a defensive duo, Lydon & Coleman will give fans and JB fits, as we watch opposing teams get offensive rebounds and finishes.

Roberson knows what he needs to do, and he is trying. What he brings is going to be effective against some teams (when he can get space inside, or a good feed to finish), and not against others.

Thompson -- might be the most difficult player to project for this season. He is the same age as Battle & Howard, and big men can take more time to develop. Check back after more games.

 

[Janner]

In addition to what has been covered so far in this thread, I think 2 additional key things are missing from this team. First leadership. I don't see a clear cut leader on this team. I think Lydon tries at times, but it remains to be seen if its in his personality to be the type of leader that is needed. This leads me into the second missing item, fire. I look at the personalities on this team and they all seem to be clam, controlled, and generally poised individuals, Howard, Lydon, White, Battle, Roberson, Gillon, Coleman, etc. I don't see any emotional, high energy "get you fired up" players like we had in the past with Cooney, Gmac, Waiters, Devendorf, even a Keita or Scoop to some extent. Someone needs to step up an provide this energy and spark.

 

[RF2044]

In addition to what has been covered so far in this thread, I think 2 additional key things are missing from this team. First leadership. I don't see a clear cut leader on this team. I think Lydon tries at times, but it remains to be seen if its in his personality to be the type of leader that is needed. This leads me into the second missing item, fire. I look at the personalities on this team and they all seem to be clam, controlled, and generally poised individuals, Howard, Lydon, White, Battle, Roberson, Gillon, Coleman, etc. I don't see any emotional, high energy "get you fired up" players like we had in the past with Cooney, Gmac, Waiters, Devendorf, even a Keita or Scoop to some extent. Someone needs to step up an provide this energy and spark.

Valid points, on both counts. This entire team just seems to play too "polite" -- probably why they got pushed around against both SC / Wisc so easily.

 

[AZOrange]

A couple of things:

1. I don't see the chemistry issues that others do. I do however see a team lacking a leader.

2. I always find the analysis of good weight/bad weight amusing as if you tell by looking at a guy what he's done in the gym. Lydon didn't add bad weight, I guarantee you that if you guys did the workouts they do, most of you would die. He's not a guy that's going to rip up, but he's clearly added bulk to back and shoulders (see strength).

 

[cuseinseattle]

So here's my take on the season to date.

We're kinda where I thought we'd be, with maybe one more loss than expected. Some things are better than expected, some are worse.

Offensively, if it weren't for AW3, we'd be a disaster. It's what concerns me most. Good defensive teams will provide problems for us - and we've got some weaknesses that I think can get better, but it's going to take time. We've got good pieces, but we don't have a "pro" right now. That's a problem...someone needs to step up their game and be a go to guy.

Defensively, we will figure it out. Especially with Battle at the top of the zone. The one skill he has that is above average for a frosh is his athleticism and defensive motor.

Here's the good:

DaJuan Coleman has finally figured it out. As a kid with bad knees who can't elevate, he's abandoned his post-up game and focused on knocking down 8-10 footers in open space. If he can make 2-3 j's a game and rebound on the defensive end of the court, he'll have given us what we need.

Aw3. He is obviously as good as advertised. He's a great shooter who's going to be asked to take on more of the scoring load as conference games begin. There will be games where's going to force shots. We're going to have to live with it.

TThompson. He's been a pleasant surprise. Still too thin to bang in the ACC for 25 minutes, but he can be effective in spurts.

Here's the bad:

The Tyler twins.

Probably the best and worst thing that happened last year was Lydon's success. It got us to a FF, but it built up unrealistic expectations for him this year. He's still an undersized 5 - stretch 4...whose perimeter game is much better than his inside game. He's getting tossed around inside and he needs to get stronger. He's put on weight, but it doesn't look like good weight. He isn't nearly as efficient as we need him to be inside. It sure looks like a player that needs another year.

Roberson. Ugh. I really feel awful for the kid. There's been pressure on him to be an NBA'er since high school. And the belief is that he needs to hit 15 footers to do so. But he can't. So there's this never ending friction between the coach who wants him to attack the glass and the player who wants to make the league. Coach is always going to win this one...and the coach is right on this one. If Robey would just rebound and hustle, there's a better chance of him getting a contract...and everyone wins. Coleman has figured out how to be effective - Robey still hasn't.

Chukwu: For a 7-2 kid, he has to get better at understanding how to maximize his height. Chasing people 40 feet from the basket isn't one of them. His shotblocking instincts are shockingly bad for his size. I knew we wouldn't get much offense from him, but his defense has been worst tvan imagined.

The so-so:

The PGs. Frank has shown spurts- better shooting and gives us size at the top of the zone. But his inability to finish at the rim or convert FTs are troublesome. Good defenders have also forced him to puck up his dribble- which stagnates the offense.

Gillon can shoot and run a team, but the size and athleticism of opposing guards have shown why he wasn't recruited at this level originally. He can't close out on shooters at 5-9 and players pass right over him. His FT shooting will earn him time in crunch time.

The unknown:

Tyus Battle. Battle is the wildcard that I think can give us an extra gear. He's shot the ball very well against the mid majors, but has struggled to get good looks from the perimeter against real teams. It's fools gold and I don't expect that to change this year. I'd like to see him attack the basket from the wings. Defensively, he's probably going to draw the opposing SF, because White doesn't attack the rim and can be checked by the opposing two. I think Tyus can be more effective with his very good handle against a "3", instead of shooting over them.

I think JB made a wise move getting him at the top of the zone where he can defend and get some run outs.

We are going to need to get some baskets outside of the half court sets. If not, we are going to struggle a bit.

Thanks for the post Jake. I give you credit for seeing this coming. We are not where I thought we would be at this point. I was expecting the Wiscy loss but didn't think we would lose to SC or look as bad as we have in general. The biggest surprises for me are the play of Tyler Lydon and Tyus Battle. I think we would be were I expected if they had been playing better. I didn't expect Lydon to average 20 a game but I thought in general he would be much better on the inside and he has missed some open shots that I expected he would make more consistently this year. I thought Battle would come in and be the athletic kid who could get in the lane, basically a slightly less athletic version of Dion but with a better outside shot. I think they can both get there but as of yet it's a work in progress. Roberson is what he is. I was hoping he would take a step towards being more consistent this year but didn't really expect that to happen. I think his problem is somewhat what you described but there is more to it. If he was shooting medium range jumpers and getting after it on the glass I would agree but I feel like he is just no where to be found at times.

 

[Cusefan0307]

A couple of things:

1. I don't see the chemistry issues that others do. I do however see a team lacking a leader.

2. I always find the analysis of good weight/bad weight amusing as if you tell by looking at a guy what he's done in the gym. Lydon didn't add bad weight, I guarantee you that if you guys did the workouts they do, most of you would die. He's not a guy that's going to rip up, but he's clearly added bulk to back and shoulders (see strength).

Don't disagree, but I don't think he's as strong in his lower half as he needs to be. In weightlifting world it's known as the dreaded chicken leg.

 

[KevMonstah]

I like this team a lot, but I do see some flaws. They will never be one of those teams that plays with true fire, especially as far as rebounding
goes. You get and keep the energy going by getting after the opponent, and unfortunately, the zone defense itself is not one that gets after
teams, unless trapping. It has lots of advantages, but the opposing team is not going to get the ball after a basket and think "ok, we got 30
seconds of pressure trying to keep us from making a shot." It's not designed that way, and either through lack of teaching the skill or lack of
interest in doing it, Syracuse hasn't been a good rebounding team in a long time. I'd almost say that they cannot possibly be emphasizing it
during practice. Let's look back to one single play from last year: against Pitt, late, one Pitt guy shooting an FT, four Cuse guys to
rebound ... and the Pitt guy manages to contest it. How? That shouldn't be possible.

What I see on the team is a bunch of guys that can play, but just don't fit into an ideal lineup. Your best offensive lineup, with Lydon at C, can't
play D or rebound. The best defensive lineup isn't going to score much, unless they press enough to generate TOs like the end of the Virginia
game. The best rebounding lineup ... is there one? You have guys you want to play in positions - Roberson at 3, Dajuan at 4, White at 2, I
think Lydon at 3/4 is best for his future, definitely not 5 - but they don't work at those spots due to lack of skills or physicality-wise. So, the
coaches have to make that work. But all that aside, I like this team. They have enough talent and depth that they should make it work and work
greatly. I am looking forward to watching them improve all season long, and I'm looking forward to watching them run to Phoenix. This team
is unlike the usual JB/SU teams, which tend to peak too early. I'll trade a couple of losses in the early parts for a long NCAA run way more than
I want to see a team peak early and not make a long run. So long as they learn from the losses, that is.

Kev

 

[orangecuse]

A couple of things:

1. I don't see the chemistry issues that others do. I do however see a team lacking a leader.

2. I always find the analysis of good weight/bad weight amusing as if you tell by looking at a guy what he's done in the gym. Lydon didn't add bad weight, I guarantee you that if you guys did the workouts they do, most of you would die. He's not a guy that's going to rip up, but he's clearly added bulk to back and shoulders (see strength).

Nope, nor is anyone for that matter who consumes too many simple carbs.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Our offensive talent just isn't good enough to run the offense JB wants to run, and I think we'll see that numerous times against better competition. Individually, we have some nice players but collectively they don't seem to play well off of each other. I think we desperately need guards that can penetrate and win 1-on-1 battles. Hopefully, Tyus gets there, but Frank isn't doing much of that and Gillon is too undersized.

I've been extremely disappointed with Lydon, but that's based on heightened expectations coming into the season, which, as we're seeing, probably wasn't fair. He's a good player, but can't create, can't get to the rim off the dribble and score and is struggling finishing inside. You're spot on that he needs another year, but his stock will continue to plummet the longer he's at SU. I don't know if he's an NBA player or not. He doesn't seem athletic enough to play SF, and he's not big enough to play the 4, even as a stretch four. I guess as a bench guy, he can make it, but I'm not sure the ceiling is there. He should dominate as a college kid if he stick around and get the interior game going.

Will Chukwu play meaningful minutes here going forward? At 7'2", you expect defensive presence, but he's offered nothing. He doesn't look like much of a shot block and that was what we needed him for. I'm sure he'll get another shot, but wow, his game is disappointing.

Robey...just in his own head now. When he's played, he can't avoid picking up fouls jumping for rebounds. He outjumps the opponent, but still get called. Then he disappears. Tough to blame JB for benching him.

 

[NKR1978]

Watched the Virginia game on Saturday. Roberson was a beast for much of the 2nd half and had some great plays in the 1st as well. I assumed that's who we were getting. The fact that he's been benched as a senior is so disappointing. I really hope he pulls it together for his sake.

 

[AZOrange]

Watched the Virginia game on Saturday. Roberson was a beast for much of the 2nd half and had some great plays in the 1st as well. I assumed that's who we were getting. The fact that he's been benched as a senior is so disappointing. I really hope he pulls it together for his sake.

I watched Saturday's game on replay after seeing some of the commentary. I actually thought Robey made a couple of nice plays but his big issue is not finishing...dunk the dang ball!!

 

[AZOrange]

Don't disagree, but I don't think he's as strong in his lower half as he needs to be. In weightlifting world it's known as the dreaded chicken leg.

Yeah a guy that height and that age is going to have that. There are just physical differences there that are tough to overcome imo. But any inference that he didn't put in the work is not accurate. That dude is a serious competitor.

 

[RF2044]

Good post, Jake. This has been a really strange season so far. Between the hot start, the unusual non-contributions from a couple of guys expected to produce more, the humbling losses, the incredibly poor half court offensive execution, the defensive lapses, and the eventual lineup changes, it is hard not to feel like this team is starting at square one. We can only wonder how much further the team might be along on both sides of the ball if this was the lineup we'd gone with out of the gate.

A couple of quick observations to add to yours:

• It will be interesting to see if the perimeter defense improves now that we have a guy [Battle] with the attributes to be a shut down defender playing there instead of White
• Battle being on the court will also give the offense an infusion of much-needed diversification and versatility. We were far too one-dimensional before the lineup change. Having two guys in the lineup who can create off of the bounce for themselves and others will help White / Lydon get more open looks
• I can't ever remember a senior getting benched like Roberson has. Certainly hasn't happened to a multi-year starter before
• Chuckwu and Roberson are treading in dangerous waters. Of the two, Roberson has obviously proven that he can help the team. But if neither of them are going to produce, then we have the depth to overcome that and more on to players who will
• Coleman seems to have quietly figured things out offensively. He's got the green light from the coaches to take that mid range jumper, and he's now finishing inside. His best "move" seems to be catching the ball with his back to the basket about 7 feet out, and then making a move on his man. For some reason, he finishes better this way than he does when he gets the ball down low [oddly enough]
• Gillon needs to get his head out of his a$$. We need a third guy in the backcourt, and another ball handler. Similar to Roberson / Chukwu above in that if he doesn't find a way to start contributing, its going to be a long season for him
• Thompson started out great, but has struggled of late. Needs to find his way without forcing. I wonder if he injured himself more than the coaching staff let on in that game prior to SC
• It will be interesting to see what happens in these next couple of games, in terms of execution on both sides of the ball, now that the lineup has started to round into form
• Tonight feels like a really important game

 

[SoBeCuse]

Our offensive talent just isn't good enough to run the offense JB wants to run, and I think we'll see that numerous times against better competition. Individually, we have some nice players but collectively they don't seem to play well off of each other. I think we desperately need guards that can penetrate and win 1-on-1 battles. Hopefully, Tyus gets there, but Frank isn't doing much of that and Gillon is too undersized.

I've been extremely disappointed with Lydon, but that's based on heightened expectations coming into the season, which, as we're seeing, probably wasn't fair. He's a good player, but can't create, can't get to the rim off the dribble and score and is struggling finishing inside. You're spot on that he needs another year, but his stock will continue to plummet the longer he's at SU. I don't know if he's an NBA player or not. He doesn't seem athletic enough to play SF, and he's not big enough to play the 4, even as a stretch four. I guess as a bench guy, he can make it, but I'm not sure the ceiling is there. He should dominate as a college kid if he stick around and get the interior game going.

Will Chukwu play meaningful minutes here going forward? At 7'2", you expect defensive presence, but he's offered nothing. He doesn't look like much of a shot block and that was what we needed him for. I'm sure he'll get another shot, but wow, his game is disappointing.

Robey...just in his own head now. When he's played, he can't avoid picking up fouls jumping for rebounds. He outjumps the opponent, but still get called. Then he disappears. Tough to blame JB for benching him.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. Someone else posted about how perhaps Lyndon's added weight isn't necessarily helping. I would buy that theory. To me he seems a little more bulky, more soft, and not as mobile as last year. He plods around a bit and doesn't seem as explosive off the floor. Not exactly sure about all of that but I'm seeing some of those things at least re: Lydon.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Our offensive talent just isn't good enough to run the offense JB wants to run, and I think we'll see that numerous times against better competition. Individually, we have some nice players but collectively they don't seem to play well off of each other. I think we desperately need guards that can penetrate and win 1-on-1 battles. Hopefully, Tyus gets there, but Frank isn't doing much of that and Gillon is too undersized.

I've been extremely disappointed with Lydon, but that's based on heightened expectations coming into the season, which, as we're seeing, probably wasn't fair. He's a good player, but can't create, can't get to the rim off the dribble and score and is struggling finishing inside. You're spot on that he needs another year, but his stock will continue to plummet the longer he's at SU. I don't know if he's an NBA player or not. He doesn't seem athletic enough to play SF, and he's not big enough to play the 4, even as a stretch four. I guess as a bench guy, he can make it, but I'm not sure the ceiling is there. He should dominate as a college kid if he stick around and get the interior game going.

Will Chukwu play meaningful minutes here going forward? At 7'2", you expect defensive presence, but he's offered nothing. He doesn't look like much of a shot block and that was what we needed him for. I'm sure he'll get another shot, but wow, his game is disappointing.

Robey...just in his own head now. When he's played, he can't avoid picking up fouls jumping for rebounds. He outjumps the opponent, but still get called. Then he disappears. Tough to blame JB for benching him.

I don't think Lydon is playing up to his capabilities at all, but he's bigger than Draymond Green who plays the four and five for Golden State. This isn't the 1990's NBA.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I don't think Lydon is playing up to his capabilities at all, but he's bigger than Draymond Green who plays the four and five for Golden State. This isn't the 1990's NBA.

Right but Green plays bigger, is WAY more athletic/explosive, etc. He can guard 4 positions. Maybe even 5 depending on the PG. Lydon definitely needs to play better like you say and I'm sure he will. If the guards settle down and can get him the ball where he needs it so he doesn't have to do too much one-on-one then he'll be fine.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Right but Green plays bigger, is WAY more athletic/explosive, etc. He can guard 4 positions. Maybe even 5 depending on the PG. Lydon definitely needs to play better like you say and I'm sure he will. If the guards settle down and can get him the ball where he needs it so he doesn't have to do too much one-on-one then he'll be fine.

Interestingly Lydon's stats in college so far are a lot better than Green's were, especially at blocking shots. Green didn't become great on D until he was in the league and Green was never known for his explosiveness at MSU. He was a back to the basket post player.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Interestingly Lydon's stats in college so far are a lot better than Green's were, especially at blocking shots. Green didn't become great on D until he was in the league and Green was never known for his explosiveness at MSU. He was a back to the basket post player.

That is true. Green was playing on some loaded MSU teams though. Teams with Kalin Lucas, Adrean Payne, Keith Appling, Durrell Summers, etc. I actually forgot that Green was Big10 Player of the Year in 2012.

I think he was always a good defender and certainly rebounder. He definitely worked on his game in the pros and completely changed his body. At MSU he always looked 'soft' to me. Still, one of the more impressive improvements in terms of all around skill-set going from a college player to a pro that I have ever seen.

 

[orangefan13]

I watched Saturday's game on replay after seeing some of the commentary. I actually thought Robey made a couple of nice plays but his big issue is not finishing...dunk the dang ball!!

stop dunking the oops and the putbacks lay those off the backboard. dunk off the dribble.
the odds of getting fouled on a putback or a oop low. odds of getting fouled on a strong move to the basket high.