The Upside and the Downside of Trevor Cooney

[rrlbees]

Literally asked that question in my very first reply to you on this thread... I'll list some guards below to save you some time from 05-06-present: GMac Devo Rautins Josh Wright Flynn Scoop Triche Dion MCW Ennis Patterson Kaleb

You may have asked it but what did it have to do with what I said? Nothing. I said I'll listen to coaches opinions. Their opinions didn't include a ranking of players.

 

[CorduroyG]

Literally asked that question in my very first reply to you on this thread...

I'll list some guards below to save you some time from 05-06-present:

GMac
Devo
Rautins
Josh Wright
Flynn
Scoop
Triche
Dion
MCW
Ennis
Patterson
Kaleb

pretty easy. hes better than wright, patterson and kaleb

 

[rrlbees]

Literally asked that question in my very first reply to you on this thread... I'll list some guards below to save you some time from 05-06-present: GMac Devo Rautins Josh Wright Flynn Scoop Triche Dion MCW Ennis Patterson Kaleb

Those on that list definitely not as good. Kaleb, Patterson, wright. A couple are close. When was mccrosky? And you know, that's a pretty good list of guards, many who played professionally. So what's the point that he's not as good as a Gmac or Devo? That wasn't the point.

 

[Ward]

Was curious so I went back 10 years:

The no-brainers, imo:
Josh Wright: Cooney better
Joseph: Cooney better
and
Jonny: Jonny better
MCW: MCW better
Waiters: Waiters better
Ennis: Ennis better
Devo: Devo better


The close ones would be:
Andy - Definitely his SR year was better, but overall, probably close
Scoop - I'd go Scoop
Triche - This is pretty close. I'd give to Triche
G - I'd go G.

I have it breaking out pretty much the exact same except I thought Triche was a no-brainer.

Interestingly enough looking at this list I had a mini epiphany. Maybe some of Cooney's problems are that he just doesn't really fit our system. The staff always recruited combo guards who could be interchangeable between on or off the ball and when looking at the above list Cooney is pretty much the only one who isn't really a point guard and my guess is probably isn't real comfortable handling that role.

In the right role/fit Cooney would be a pretty good player in the ACC. He probably has a better career if he goes to like Notre Dame or a school that ran an offense to better fit his skill set.

 

[suttree]

That might be a pretty high standard? How many of those shots have we made as a team period in his 3 years?

Anyway, did he maybe make one in the Duke game a few years ago? he was on fire that one if i remember

Only one of these is even remotely recent, but maybe this walk down Memory Lane will make everyone a little less cranky.

Ennis Envy:
'Cuse is in tha house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7TZRGXuLHw

Not ten f***ing games! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ArlqIs2NT8

God Bless #31: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLxOrzM-NUo
(Longer version available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sO_ccMcfUE.)

Let's everybody cheer up a bit. We've had some good times, and there are more to come.

 

[Ghost]

yup. its like youre arguing with cooney's parents. and saying he shoots a higher % than gmac is a little ridiculous. gmac was a point guard, a lot more responsibility. im pretty sure this team could win 10 games without cooney. and i honestly cant remember a cooney shot in the last 30 seconds of a game that tied or gave us a lead.

I was going to say, it's sort of like arguing with OGB about BJ. Some people are fine with it, some people lose their mind because there isn't a ton to back it up other than his thoughts, references to speaking with JB, etc...Not at all comparing TC to BJ by the way or their impact here.

I remember endlessly arguing in tons of threads about Rak for 3 years along with a few others on the side of Rak having more to give, while everyone said he was frustrating, an enigma, lackadaisical, a disappointment, etc...but I never recall anyone ever asking for the "bashing" to stop. People thought he sucked...so be it.

People make an argument, it gets rehashed after a couple games because you see the same things, you make your points for the 148th time and you move on...except with TC. I think a lot of that is for the reason HoustonCuse points out, except in reverse. It's very emotional for Cooney fans for whatever reason. The "intangibles" guy will always be divisive though - that's in any sport.

Even with the quotes - they are fantastic, but I can't tell you how often it's called hyperbole. Except when its' pro-TC. Then it has some sort of extra significance attached. JB saying Rak had it in him to play his Junior year like his Senior year, but didn't because we had better options on offense was always dismissed as hyperbole...because it didn't fit the narrative. People pick which quotes they want to roll with I guess.

Here's a quote where JB thinks Ron Patterson is a good shooter. "Boeheim said he encourages Patterson “to look for his shot when he gets in the game because he’s a good shooter.’’" JB's assessment may have been wrong on that one. He says stuff. Coaches do that.

Oh well! I find these threads entertaining enough, but I found the Rak ones fun too when I was on the other side. Even the Scooptard threads, and Christian White is better than Scoop threads were interesting enough.

 

[Ghost]

Was curious so I went back 10 years:

The no-brainers, imo:
Josh Wright: Cooney better
Joseph: Cooney better
and
Jonny: Jonny better
MCW: MCW better
Waiters: Waiters better
Ennis: Ennis better
Devo: Devo better


The close ones would be:
Andy - Definitely his SR year was better, but overall, probably close
Scoop - I'd go Scoop
Triche - This is pretty close. I'd give to Triche
G - I'd go G.

Josh Wright...he didn't turn out well for us. He and Kaleb seem to be about on par for career trajectories. Still hoping KJ can turn it around though. Has to be a tough year for the kid after starting as a Frosh.

 

[SUFan44]

Those on that list definitely not as good. Kaleb, Patterson, wright. A couple are close. When was mccrosky? And you know, that's a pretty good list of guards, many who played professionally. So what's the point that he's not as good as a Gmac or Devo? That wasn't the point.

Patterson: Transfer.
Wright: Transfer/Kicked Off.
McCroskey: Transfer.
Joseph: Eventual Transfer.

Gbinije: Much better.
Scoop: Much better.
Rautins: Much better.
Triche: Much better.

 

[rrlbees]

I was going to say, it's sort of like arguing with OGB about BJ. Some people are fine with it, some people lose their mind because there isn't a ton to back it up other than his thoughts, references to speaking with JB, etc...Not at all comparing TC to BJ by the way or their impact here. I remember endlessly arguing in tons of threads about Rak for 3 years along with a few others on the side of Rak having more to give, while everyone said he was frustrating, an enigma, lackadaisical, a disappointment, etc...but I never recall anyone ever asking for the "bashing" to stop. People thought he sucked...so be it. People make an argument, it gets rehashed after a couple games because you see the same things, you make your points for the 148th time and you move on...except with TC. I think a lot of that is for the reason HoustonCuse points out, except in reverse. It's very emotional for Cooney fans for whatever reason. The "intangibles" guy will always be divisive though - that's in any sport. Even with the quotes - they are fantastic, but I can't tell you how often it's called hyperbole. Except when its' pro-TC. Then it has some sort of extra significance attached. JB saying Rak had it in him to play his Junior year like his Senior year, but didn't because we had better options on offense was always dismissed as hyperbole...because it didn't fit the narrative. People pick which quotes they want to roll with I guess. Here's a quote where JB thinks Ron Patterson is a good shooter. "Boeheim said he encourages Patterson “to look for his shot when he gets in the game because he’s a good shooter.’’" JB's assessment may have been wrong on that one. He says stuff. Coaches do that. Oh well! I find these threads entertaining enough, but I found the Rak ones fun too when I was on the other side. Even the Scooptard threads, and Christian White is better than Scoop threads were interesting enough.

Except I don't remember people saying they couldn't wait for Rak to graduate or used words like sucks and POS or worse center in 30 years and many others. And there was no way no how the sheer number of threads or posts. The only 2 to even come close were Triche and Forth.

 

[Ward]

Those on that list definitely not as good. Kaleb, Patterson, wright. A couple are close. When was mccrosky? And you know, that's a pretty good list of guards, many who played professionally. So what's the point that he's not as good as a Gmac or Devo? That wasn't the point.

I didn't include McCroskey because I figured he was more of forward than guard though I know he played some guard I guess so fine throw him on the list.

My point, as stated previously, when asking the question was to try and get some context around your comments on Cooney and if you think he's good in a sense that coaches like him and he plays hard or good in a sense that you think he is on the same level or above as our guards from recent years. It helped clear things up because it was coming across like you actually thought he was better or equal to a majority of guys on that list.

Took a lot longer to get to that than I expected...

 

[orange79]

Except I don't remember people saying they couldn't wait for Rak to graduate or used words like sucks and POS or worse center in 30 years and many others. And there was no way no how the sheer number of threads or posts. The only 2 to even come close were Triche and Forth.

No doubt, I think the number of Triche threads comes very close

 

[skurey]

Cooney clutch argument.

I agree he hasn't hit many shots in the last minute but this year he's had multiple huge 3s with like 2-3 minutes left where if he missed it was surely game over.

 

[SWC75]

SWC, when I saw your post title, I thought "great! we can now get a data driven analysis of exactly how good or bad Cooney has really been without emotional contrivances on either side!" I got disappointed because short of a net points comparison between Roberson and Cooney for a single game, there wasn't any data in your post. You mentioned that the radio was trying to peer-group him with other historical figures from SU basketball and it looked like a perfect opportunity for you to comment upon and validate those comparisons using your net points or other analysis. Instead of that, your post was not driven by data but by the same conjecture (or at least qualitative analysis) that everyone else uses.

People have taken a small amount of umbrage to my post on the topic because they have an emotion-driven idea that Cooney isn't very good (and in some extreme cases they believe is one of the worst players to ever suit up in orange *eye-roll*). But those people are simply having a further emotional reaction that now a Mt. Rushmore type fair-and-balanced data guy like yourself has come down on their side of the argument. They feel this gives weight to their mostly-baseless feelings on how good or bad a player he is. It is certainly your right to post anything you want, but I feel this was a huge missed opportunity to add real clarity to the "Cooney question" and instead all that happened here is the trolls were fed. And the food coming from you is an especially big meal!

People will read my comments here and accuse me of defending Cooney at all costs. I am doing nothing of the sort. That is just more emotionalism. I do, however, feel that Mr. Cooney has earned the right to have a fair look at his career from us and not a long list of emotional outbursts saying he is terrible and hurt the team. We just don't have the data to say that either way - and by the way that data would also have to include the opportunity cost of him being on the floor versus somebody else. If we, as a fanbase, are going to rip apart our own players, especially players who have committed 5 years to the program and clearly give their all, then I believe we owe it to them to be damn sure they are awful before we do that. Period. The fact is we have not done the work to prove that. You were our best hope for that sort of analysis and it didn't happen. It clearly put a big boost into the Cooney sucks crowd. I'm disappointed with that. We should be better than that.

But whatever, this entire debate has gone well past logic and data. People feel how they feel and there is no convincing them otherwise. Certainly not now.

So basically your posts have been a complicated way of asking for a statistical analysis of Trevor Cooney. I've worked one up below that should interest everybody. As to my original post, I was reacting to what I'd heard on the radio, which, it seemed to me, contained both extreme criticisms and defenses of Trevor Cooney and I felt the antidote was a balanced appraisal, so i went with an "Upsides/Downsides approach based on my observations of him over his career here, much like my post game analysis that are very popular. I then crunch the numbers in my "Net Points, etc." post a couple of days later. So now I've worked up some numbers on Cooney and here goes, (it's long but bear with me):

The following is a ranking of the senior starting guards we’ve had since the 1982-83 seassn,(the earliest for which we have all the necessary numbers of the “net points” computation- from the SU Media Guide and Cuse.com). A “starting guard” is one whose minutes played were in the top 5 of the team for the season and was clearly a guard in his usage as determined by my memory and the numbers, (guards tend to have fewer rebounds, more assists and attempt more three pointers than small forwards: thus Lawrence Moten counts as a guard in his senior season.) There’s also a section of the media guide that lists starting line-ups and designates positons. I looked at that but they often list three guards but it seems to me that JB usually uses one player as a small forward so I limited my study to two guards per year.

M = minutes per game, P = points per 40 minutes played, R= rebounds per 40 minutes, A = assists per 40 minutes, S= steals per 40 minutes, B = blocks per 40 minutes, + = the total of P, R, A, S and B, MFG = missed field goals per 40 minutes, MFY = missed free throws per 40 minutes, TO = turnovers per 40 minutes, PF- personal fouls committed per 40 minutes, - = the total of MFG, MFT, TO, PF, NP = + minus -, OE = P minus MFG and MFT, FG = NP – OE.

Eric Santifer, 1982-83
31.5M, 22.7P, 6.3R, 4.2A, 1.9S, 0.2B = 35.3+ 6.6MFG, 1.4MFT, 3.3TO, 3.0PF = 15.5- 21.0NP, 14.7OE, 6.3FG

Sherman Douglas, 1988-89
35.2M, 20.7P, 2.8R, 9.7A, 2.1S, 0.0B, = 35.3+ 6.8MFG, 1.9MFT, 4.2TO, 2.1PF = 15.0- 20.3NP, 12.0OE, 8.3FG

Rafael Addison, 1985-86
31.6M, 18.9P, 7.1R, 5.2A, 1.6S, 0.6B = 33.4+ 7.1MFG, 0.7MFT, 2.8TO, 22.7PF = 13.3- 20.1NP 11.1OE, 9.0FG

Adrian Autry, 1993-94
35.7M, 18.7P, 5.4R, 6.8A, 1.8S, 0.4B = 33.1+ 8.1MFG, 1.0MFT, 4.3TO, 2.9PF = 16.3- 16.8NP, 9.6OE, 7.2FG

Lawrence Moten, 1994-95
35.3M, 22.2P, 4.7R, 3.7A, 2.1S, 0.3B = 33.0+ 9.3MFG, 1.5MFT, 3.4TO, 2.2PF = 16.4- 16.6NP, 11.4OE, 5.2FG

Greg Monroe, 1986-87
31.0M, 16.6P, 3.2R, 5.2A, 1.5S, 0.1B = 26.6+ 6.4MFG, 0.6MFT, 1.8TO, 1.7PF = 10.5- 16.1NP, 9.6OE, 6.5FG

Stevie Thompson 1989-90
34.6M, 20.6P, 6.0R, 3.5A, 1.7S, 0.2B = 32.0+ 8.0MFG, 3.5MFT, 2.8TO, 2.1PF + 16.4- 15.6NP, 9.1OE, 6.5FG

Andy Rautins, 2009-10
32.5M, 14.9P, 4.2R, 6.0A, 2.4S, 0.3B = 27.8+ 5.8MFG, 0.5MFT, 3.4TO, 2.7PF = 12.4- 15.4NP, 8.6OE, 6.8FG

Scoop Jardine, 2011-12
25.2M, 14.1P, 3.7R, 7.8A, 2.1S, 0.2B = 27.9+ 5.9MFG, 1.3MFT, 3.6TO, 1.7N = 12.5- 15.4NP, 6.9OE, 8.5FG

Gerry McNamara , 2005-06
35.2M, 18.2P, 3.1R, 6.7A 2.1S, 0.1B = 30.2+ 10.3MFG, 0.4MFT, 3.8TO, 1.5PF = 16.0- 14.2NP, 7.5OE, 6.7FG

Jason Hart, 1999-2000
33.8M, 14.1P, 3.5R, 7.7A, 2.2S, 0.1B = 27.6+ 6.6MFG 1.3MFT 4.1TO 2.9PF = 14.9- 12.7NP, 6.2OE, 6.5FG

Kueth Duany, 2002-03
27.0M, 16.3P, 5.4R, 3.0A, 1.5S, 0.8B = 27.0+ 7.2MFG, 1.6MFT, 2.4TO, 3.2PF = 14.4- 12.6NP, 7.5OE, 5.1FG

Lazarus Sims, 1995-96
35.6M, 7.1P, 4.1R, 8.3A, 1.6S, 0.1B = 21.2+ 2.9MFG, 0.7MFT, 3.6TO, 2.2PF = 9.4- 11.8NP, 3.5OE, 8.3FG

Brandon Triche, 2012-13
33.8M, 16.1P, 4.1R, 4.3A, 1.5S, 0.1B = 26.1+ 7.7MFG, 1.3MFT, 3.2TO, 2.5PF = 14.7- 11.4NP, 7.1OE, 4.3FG

Alan Griffin, 2000-01
36.7M, 11.3P, 4.1R, 6.5A, 1.8S, 0.1B = 23.8+ 5.6MFG, 0.8MFT, 2.5TO, 4.2PF = 13.1- 10.7NP, 4.9OE, 5.8FG

Mike Hopkins, 1992-93
28.2M, 13.1P, 5.2R, 3.1A, 2.1S, 0.5B = +24.0 5.7MFG, 1.1MFT, 3.1TO, 3.7PF = 13.6- 10.4NP, 6.3OE, 4.1FG

Gene Waldron, 1983-84
26.8M, 13.7P, 3.3R, 5.8A, 1.6S, 0.0B = 24.4+ 6.1MFG, 1.4MFT, 3.6Tom 3.9PF = 15.0- 9.4NP, 6.2OE, 3.2FG

Trevor Cooney, 2015-16
37.2M, 14.2P, 2.6R, 2.7A, 1.7S, 0.2B = 21.4+ 8.3MFG, 0.7MFT, 1.8TO, 1.6PF = 12.4- 9.0NP, 5.2OE, 3.8FG

Marius Janulis, 1997-98
32.5M, 11.8P, 3.9R, 2.5A, 1.6S, 0.1B = 19.9+ 5.8MFG, 0.2MFT, 2.0TO, 3.2PF = 11.2- 8.7NP, 5.8OE, 2.9FG

That’s 19 senior starting guards in 34 seasons. Trevor Cooney is the 18th most statistically productive of them and yet he plays more minutes per game than any of them. It could be argued that minutes per game is based on the options available. It seems to me that was true the last couple of seasons but not this one: we have alternative line-ups that could have been used without him. Similarly, the argument that he gets more defensive attention than anyone because he’s our only outside shooter was more true the previous two years than it is this season.

The player Cooney most resembles is the only one below him in the standings, Marius Janulis. He actually scores more than the one-dimensional Janulis but misses far more shots, (Marius shot 41.)% overall and 39.6% from three point range as a senior: Trevor is 37.2% and 34.9% respectively). Trevor’s drives to the basket more and so got to the line more. He also commits far fewer fouls, the sign of a better defensive player. But, surprisingly, Janulis was a much better rebounder, (3.9 vs. 2.6). I had thought that Trevor was a bigger, stronger player than Marius but I looked it up and Janulis was listed at 6-5 218 and Trevor is 6-4, 195. I still think Trevor is a better athlete than Marius was, (I don’t remember Marius dunking). Marius was clearly a better shooter but I think Trevor has better all-around abilities and I would expect him to have better numbers than Marius. But he doesn’t.

Breaking it down stat by stat:

M- Alan Griffin is closest to Trevor at 36.7

P- Jason Hart and Scoop Jardine, both point guards, at 14.1 are the closest to Trevor.

R- Trevor is the worst rebounder of the 19 players: Sherman Douglas is at 2.8.

A – Trevor has fewer assists than any except Janulis being the closest at 2.6.

S- Despite his reputation as a ball hawk, 10 of the 19 players averaged more steals. Stevie Thompson was tied with him.

B- None of these guys were shot blockers, (although I remember Alan Griffin having an unbelievable one vs. St. John’s). Cooney has good hops but almost all the guys ahead of him, (Hopkins, Duany, Rautins, Moten, Autry and Addison) were taller than he is. Santifer, Thompsons and, surprisingly the 6-2 Scoop Jardine were equal to Trevor at 0.2.

+ Two guys were worse than Trevor’s 21.4. The closest was Lazarus Sims at 21.2 Sims had a great year as a distributor but wasn’t a scorer.

MFG- Four guys missed more shots than Trevor, with GMAC #1 and well ahead, (or behind) of him at 10.3. Autry was the closest at 8.1.

MFT- Twelve guys hurt us more at the free throw line. Raf Addison and Z Sims were on a par at 0.7 Stevie Thompson was easily the worst at 3.5.

TO- One thing you can say for Trevor: he doesn’t turn the ball over. Only Greg Monroe had as few turnovers at 1.8. But consider that exceeds his vaunted steals.

PF- Trevor also commits fewer fouls than anyone except GMAC.

- Only Sims, Monroe and Janulis have fewer negatives, even with Trevor’s missed shots. Andy Rautins has exactly the same number: 12.4

NP- Only Janulis was worse at 8.7 and he is also the closest.

OE- Only Griffin and Sims were less offensively efficient than Cooney and both were point guards who didn’t score much.

FG- Only Waldron and Janulis had a worse floor game than Trevor’s 3.8. Mike Hopkins, who I always though had a pretty good floor game, was the closest at 4.1.


So let’s put it together: If a senior starting SU guard played as much as Alan Griffin, scored like Jason Hart or Scoop Jardine, rebounded like Sherman Douglas, passed like Marius Janulis, stole the ball as often as Stevie Thompson, blocked shots like Thompson, Jardine and Eric Santifer, shot with Adrian Autry’s accuracy, shot fouls like Rafael Addison and Lazarus Sims, took care of the ball like Greg Monroe and fouled people at the rate of Gerry McNamara, you’d have a player close to Trevor Cooney. Some of those comparisons are favorable but you’re kind of matching the wrong skills with the wrong guys.

To be a senior starter for Syracuse University you’ve got to be a good college basketball player. But of the above group, Trevor Cooney is very close to the bottom. He’s played a lot because we haven’t had anyone better but I don’[t think that’s really true right now. I think it’s reasonable to say that if he’s playing poorly, someone else should get a chance. (However, fi the most obvious alternative, Malachi Richardson, is playing as badly, what are you going to do?)

 

[SUFan44]

So basically your posts have been a complicated way of asking for a statistical analysis of Trevor Cooney. I've worked one up below that should interest everybody. As to my original post, I was reacting to what I'd heard on the radio, which, it seemed to me, contained both extreme criticisms and defenses of Trevor Cooney and I felt the antidote was a balanced appraisal, so i went with an "Upsides/Downsides approach based on my observations of him over his career here, much like my post game analysis that are very popular. I then crunch the numbers in my "Net Points, etc." post a couple of days later. So now I've worked up some numbers on Cooney and here goes, (it's long but bear with me):

The following is a ranking of the senior starting guards we’ve had since the 1982-83 seassn,(the earliest for which we have all the necessary numbers of the “net points” computation- from the SU Media Guide and Cuse.com). A “starting guard” is one whose minutes played were in the top 5 of the team for the season and was clearly a guard in his usage as determined by my memory and the numbers, (guards tend to have fewer rebounds, more assists and attempt more three pointers than small forwards: thus Lawrence Moten counts as a guard in his senior season.) There’s also a section of the media guide that lists starting line-ups and designates positons. I looked at that but they often list three guards but it seems to me that JB usually uses one player as a small forward so I limited my study to two guards per year.

M = minutes per game, P = points per 40 minutes played, R= rebounds per 40 minutes, A = assists per 40 minutes, S= steals per 40 minutes, B = blocks per 40 minutes, + = the total of P, R, A, S and B, MFG = missed field goals per 40 minutes, MFY = missed free throws per 40 minutes, TO = turnovers per 40 minutes, PF- personal fouls committed per 40 minutes, - = the total of MFG, MFT, TO, PF, NP = + minus -, OE = P minus MFG and MFT, FG = NP – OE.

Eric Santifer, 1982-83
31.5M, 22.7P, 6.3R, 4.2A, 1.9S, 0.2B = 35.3+ 6.6MFG, 1.4MFT, 3.3TO, 3.0PF = 15.5- 21.0NP, 14.7OE, 6.3FG

Sherman Douglas, 1988-89
35.2M, 20.7P, 2.8R, 9.7A, 2.1S, 0.0B, = 35.3+ 6.8MFG, 1.9MFT, 4.2TO, 2.1PF = 15.0- 20.3NP, 12.0OE, 8.3FG

Rafael Addison, 1985-86
31.6M, 18.9P, 7.1R, 5.2A, 1.6S, 0.6B = 33.4+ 7.1MFG, 0.7MFT, 2.8TO, 22.7PF = 13.3- 20.1NP 11.1OE, 9.0FG

Adrian Autry, 1993-94
35.7M, 18.7P, 5.4R, 6.8A, 1.8S, 0.4B = 33.1+ 8.1MFG, 1.0MFT, 4.3TO, 2.9PF = 16.3- 16.8NP, 9.6OE, 7.2FG

Lawrence Moten, 1994-95
35.3M, 22.2P, 4.7R, 3.7A, 2.1S, 0.3B = 33.0+ 9.3MFG, 1.5MFT, 3.4TO, 2.2PF = 16.4- 16.6NP, 11.4OE, 5.2FG

Greg Monroe, 1986-87
31.0M, 16.6P, 3.2R, 5.2A, 1.5S, 0.1B = 26.6+ 6.4MFG, 0.6MFT, 1.8TO, 1.7PF = 10.5- 16.1NP, 9.6OE, 6.5FG

Stevie Thompson 1989-90
34.6M, 20.6P, 6.0R, 3.5A, 1.7S, 0.2B = 32.0+ 8.0MFG, 3.5MFT, 2.8TO, 2.1PF + 16.4- 15.6NP, 9.1OE, 6.5FG

Andy Rautins, 2009-10
32.5M, 14.9P, 4.2R, 6.0A, 2.4S, 0.3B = 27.8+ 5.8MFG, 0.5MFT, 3.4TO, 2.7PF = 12.4- 15.4NP, 8.6OE, 6.8FG

Scoop Jardine, 2011-12
25.2M, 14.1P, 3.7R, 7.8A, 2.1S, 0.2B = 27.9+ 5.9MFG, 1.3MFT, 3.6TO, 1.7N = 12.5- 15.4NP, 6.9OE, 8.5FG

Gerry McNamara , 2005-06
35.2M, 18.2P, 3.1R, 6.7A 2.1S, 0.1B = 30.2+ 10.3MFG, 0.4MFT, 3.8TO, 1.5PF = 16.0- 14.2NP, 7.5OE, 6.7FG

Jason Hart, 1999-2000
33.8M, 14.1P, 3.5R, 7.7A, 2.2S, 0.1B = 27.6+ 6.6MFG 1.3MFT 4.1TO 2.9PF = 14.9- 12.7NP, 6.2OE, 6.5FG

Kueth Duany, 2002-03
27.0M, 16.3P, 5.4R, 3.0A, 1.5S, 0.8B = 27.0+ 7.2MFG, 1.6MFT, 2.4TO, 3.2PF = 14.4- 12.6NP, 7.5OE, 5.1FG

Lazarus Sims, 1995-96
35.6M, 7.1P, 4.1R, 8.3A, 1.6S, 0.1B = 21.2+ 2.9MFG, 0.7MFT, 3.6TO, 2.2PF = 9.4- 11.8NP, 3.5OE, 8.3FG

Brandon Triche, 2012-13
33.8M, 16.1P, 4.1R, 4.3A, 1.5S, 0.1B = 26.1+ 7.7MFG, 1.3MFT, 3.2TO, 2.5PF = 14.7- 11.4NP, 7.1OE, 4.3FG

Alan Griffin, 2000-01
36.7M, 11.3P, 4.1R, 6.5A, 1.8S, 0.1B = 23.8+ 5.6MFG, 0.8MFT, 2.5TO, 4.2PF = 13.1- 10.7NP, 4.9OE, 5.8FG

Mike Hopkins, 1992-93
28.2M, 13.1P, 5.2R, 3.1A, 2.1S, 0.5B = +24.0 5.7MFG, 1.1MFT, 3.1TO, 3.7PF = 13.6- 10.4NP, 6.3OE, 4.1FG

Gene Waldron, 1983-84
26.8M, 13.7P, 3.3R, 5.8A, 1.6S, 0.0B = 24.4+ 6.1MFG, 1.4MFT, 3.6Tom 3.9PF = 15.0- 9.4NP, 6.2OE, 3.2FG

Trevor Cooney, 2015-16
37.2M, 14.2P, 2.6R, 2.7A, 1.7S, 0.2B = 21.4+ 8.3MFG, 0.7MFT, 1.8TO, 1.6PF = 12.4- 9.0NP, 5.2OE, 3.8FG

Marius Janulis, 1997-98
32.5M, 11.8P, 3.9R, 2.5A, 1.6S, 0.1B = 19.9+ 5.8MFG, 0.2MFT, 2.0TO, 3.2PF = 11.2- 8.7NP, 5.8OE, 2.9FG

That’s 19 senior starting guards in 34 seasons. Trevor Cooney is the 18th most statistically productive of them and yet he plays more minutes per game than any of them. It could be argued that minutes per game is based on the options available. It seems to me that was true the last couple of seasons but not this one: we have alternative line-ups that could have been used without him. Similarly, the argument that he gets more defensive attention than anyone because he’s our only outside shooter was more true the previous two years than it is this season.

The player Cooney most resembles is the only one below him in the standings, Marius Janulis. He actually scores more than the one-dimensional Janulis but misses far more shots, (Marius shot 41.)% overall and 39.6% from three point range as a senior: Trevor is 37.2% and 34.9% respectively). Trevor’s drives to the basket more and so got to the line more. He also commits far fewer fouls, the sign of a better defensive player. But, surprisingly, Janulis was a much better rebounder, (3.9 vs. 2.6). I had thought that Trevor was a bigger, stronger player than Marius but I looked it up and Janulis was listed at 6-5 218 and Trevor is 6-4, 195. I still think Trevor is a better athlete than Marius was, (I don’t remember Marius dunking). Marius was clearly a better shooter but I think Trevor has better all-around abilities and I would expect him to have better numbers than Marius. But he doesn’t.

Breaking it down stat by stat:

M- Alan Griffin is closest to Trevor at 36.7

P- Jason Hart and Scoop Jardine, both point guards, at 14.1 are the closest to Trevor.

R- Trevor is the worst rebounder of the 19 players: Sherman Douglas is at 2.8.

A – Trevor has fewer assists than any except Janulis being the closest at 2.6.

S- Despite his reputation as a ball hawk, 10 of the 19 players averaged more steals. Stevie Thompson was tied with him.

B- None of these guys were shot blockers, (although I remember Alan Griffin having an unbelievable one vs. St. John’s). Cooney has good hops but almost all the guys ahead of him, (Hopkins, Duany, Rautins, Moten, Autry and Addison) were taller than he is. Santifer, Thompsons and, surprisingly the 6-2 Scoop Jardine were equal to Trevor at 0.2.

+ Two guys were worse than Trevor’s 21.4. The closest was Lazarus Sims at 21.2 Sims had a great year as a distributor but wasn’t a scorer.

MFG- Four guys missed more shots than Trevor, with GMAC #1 and well ahead, (or behind) of him at 10.3. Autry was the closest at 8.1.

MFT- Twelve guys hurt us more at the free throw line. Raf Addison and Z Sims were on a par at 0.7 Stevie Thompson was easily the worst at 3.5.

TO- One thing you can say for Trevor: he doesn’t turn the ball over. Only Greg Monroe had as few turnovers at 1.8. But consider that exceeds his vaunted steals.

PF- Trevor also commits fewer fouls than anyone except GMAC.

- Only Sims, Monroe and Janulis have fewer negatives, even with Trevor’s missed shots. Andy Rautins has exactly the same number: 12.4

NP- Only Janulis was worse at 8.7 and he is also the closest.

OE- Only Griffin and Sims were less offensively efficient than Cooney and both were point guards who didn’t score much.

FG- Only Waldron and Janulis had a worse floor game than Trevor’s 3.8. Mike Hopkins, who I always though had a pretty good floor game, was the closest at 4.1.


So let’s put it together: If a senior starting SU guard played as much as Alan Griffin, scored like Jason Hart or Scoop Jardine, rebounded like Sherman Douglas, passed like Marius Janulis, stole the ball as often as Stevie Thompson, blocked shots like Thompson, Jardine and Eric Santifer, shot with Adrian Autry’s accuracy, shot fouls like Rafael Addison and Lazarus Sims, took care of the ball like Greg Monroe and fouled people at the rate of Gerry McNamara, you’d have a player close to Trevor Cooney. Some of those comparisons are favorable but you’re kind of matching the wrong skills with the wrong guys.

To be a senior starter for Syracuse University you’ve got to be a good college basketball player. But of the above group, Trevor Cooney is very close to the bottom. He’s played a lot because we haven’t had anyone better but I don’[t think that’s really true right now. I think it’s reasonable to say that if he’s playing poorly, someone else should get a chance. (However, fi the most obvious alternative, Malachi Richardson, is playing as badly, what are you going to do?)

But Coach Boeheim has had quotes! So have a few other coaches!

Nice post. I think statistically speaking, it's pretty clear who the lower echelon players on the list are. And that jives with what I would expect from the eye test, too.

 

[br801]

So basically your posts have been a complicated way of asking for a statistical analysis of Trevor Cooney. I've worked one up below that should interest everybody. As to my original post, I was reacting to what I'd heard on the radio, which, it seemed to me, contained both extreme criticisms and defenses of Trevor Cooney and I felt the antidote was a balanced appraisal, so i went with an "Upsides/Downsides approach based on my observations of him over his career here, much like my post game analysis that are very popular. I then crunch the numbers in my "Net Points, etc." post a couple of days later. So now I've worked up some numbers on Cooney and here goes, (it's long but bear with me):

The following is a ranking of the senior starting guards we’ve had since the 1982-83 seassn,(the earliest for which we have all the necessary numbers of the “net points” computation- from the SU Media Guide and Cuse.com). A “starting guard” is one whose minutes played were in the top 5 of the team for the season and was clearly a guard in his usage as determined by my memory and the numbers, (guards tend to have fewer rebounds, more assists and attempt more three pointers than small forwards: thus Lawrence Moten counts as a guard in his senior season.) There’s also a section of the media guide that lists starting line-ups and designates positons. I looked at that but they often list three guards but it seems to me that JB usually uses one player as a small forward so I limited my study to two guards per year.

M = minutes per game, P = points per 40 minutes played, R= rebounds per 40 minutes, A = assists per 40 minutes, S= steals per 40 minutes, B = blocks per 40 minutes, + = the total of P, R, A, S and B, MFG = missed field goals per 40 minutes, MFY = missed free throws per 40 minutes, TO = turnovers per 40 minutes, PF- personal fouls committed per 40 minutes, - = the total of MFG, MFT, TO, PF, NP = + minus -, OE = P minus MFG and MFT, FG = NP – OE.

Eric Santifer, 1982-83
31.5M, 22.7P, 6.3R, 4.2A, 1.9S, 0.2B = 35.3+ 6.6MFG, 1.4MFT, 3.3TO, 3.0PF = 15.5- 21.0NP, 14.7OE, 6.3FG

Sherman Douglas, 1988-89
35.2M, 20.7P, 2.8R, 9.7A, 2.1S, 0.0B, = 35.3+ 6.8MFG, 1.9MFT, 4.2TO, 2.1PF = 15.0- 20.3NP, 12.0OE, 8.3FG

Rafael Addison, 1985-86
31.6M, 18.9P, 7.1R, 5.2A, 1.6S, 0.6B = 33.4+ 7.1MFG, 0.7MFT, 2.8TO, 22.7PF = 13.3- 20.1NP 11.1OE, 9.0FG

Adrian Autry, 1993-94
35.7M, 18.7P, 5.4R, 6.8A, 1.8S, 0.4B = 33.1+ 8.1MFG, 1.0MFT, 4.3TO, 2.9PF = 16.3- 16.8NP, 9.6OE, 7.2FG

Lawrence Moten, 1994-95
35.3M, 22.2P, 4.7R, 3.7A, 2.1S, 0.3B = 33.0+ 9.3MFG, 1.5MFT, 3.4TO, 2.2PF = 16.4- 16.6NP, 11.4OE, 5.2FG

Greg Monroe, 1986-87
31.0M, 16.6P, 3.2R, 5.2A, 1.5S, 0.1B = 26.6+ 6.4MFG, 0.6MFT, 1.8TO, 1.7PF = 10.5- 16.1NP, 9.6OE, 6.5FG

Stevie Thompson 1989-90
34.6M, 20.6P, 6.0R, 3.5A, 1.7S, 0.2B = 32.0+ 8.0MFG, 3.5MFT, 2.8TO, 2.1PF + 16.4- 15.6NP, 9.1OE, 6.5FG

Andy Rautins, 2009-10
32.5M, 14.9P, 4.2R, 6.0A, 2.4S, 0.3B = 27.8+ 5.8MFG, 0.5MFT, 3.4TO, 2.7PF = 12.4- 15.4NP, 8.6OE, 6.8FG

Scoop Jardine, 2011-12
25.2M, 14.1P, 3.7R, 7.8A, 2.1S, 0.2B = 27.9+ 5.9MFG, 1.3MFT, 3.6TO, 1.7N = 12.5- 15.4NP, 6.9OE, 8.5FG

Gerry McNamara , 2005-06
35.2M, 18.2P, 3.1R, 6.7A 2.1S, 0.1B = 30.2+ 10.3MFG, 0.4MFT, 3.8TO, 1.5PF = 16.0- 14.2NP, 7.5OE, 6.7FG

Jason Hart, 1999-2000
33.8M, 14.1P, 3.5R, 7.7A, 2.2S, 0.1B = 27.6+ 6.6MFG 1.3MFT 4.1TO 2.9PF = 14.9- 12.7NP, 6.2OE, 6.5FG

Kueth Duany, 2002-03
27.0M, 16.3P, 5.4R, 3.0A, 1.5S, 0.8B = 27.0+ 7.2MFG, 1.6MFT, 2.4TO, 3.2PF = 14.4- 12.6NP, 7.5OE, 5.1FG

Lazarus Sims, 1995-96
35.6M, 7.1P, 4.1R, 8.3A, 1.6S, 0.1B = 21.2+ 2.9MFG, 0.7MFT, 3.6TO, 2.2PF = 9.4- 11.8NP, 3.5OE, 8.3FG

Brandon Triche, 2012-13
33.8M, 16.1P, 4.1R, 4.3A, 1.5S, 0.1B = 26.1+ 7.7MFG, 1.3MFT, 3.2TO, 2.5PF = 14.7- 11.4NP, 7.1OE, 4.3FG

Alan Griffin, 2000-01
36.7M, 11.3P, 4.1R, 6.5A, 1.8S, 0.1B = 23.8+ 5.6MFG, 0.8MFT, 2.5TO, 4.2PF = 13.1- 10.7NP, 4.9OE, 5.8FG

Mike Hopkins, 1992-93
28.2M, 13.1P, 5.2R, 3.1A, 2.1S, 0.5B = +24.0 5.7MFG, 1.1MFT, 3.1TO, 3.7PF = 13.6- 10.4NP, 6.3OE, 4.1FG

Gene Waldron, 1983-84
26.8M, 13.7P, 3.3R, 5.8A, 1.6S, 0.0B = 24.4+ 6.1MFG, 1.4MFT, 3.6Tom 3.9PF = 15.0- 9.4NP, 6.2OE, 3.2FG

Trevor Cooney, 2015-16
37.2M, 14.2P, 2.6R, 2.7A, 1.7S, 0.2B = 21.4+ 8.3MFG, 0.7MFT, 1.8TO, 1.6PF = 12.4- 9.0NP, 5.2OE, 3.8FG

Marius Janulis, 1997-98
32.5M, 11.8P, 3.9R, 2.5A, 1.6S, 0.1B = 19.9+ 5.8MFG, 0.2MFT, 2.0TO, 3.2PF = 11.2- 8.7NP, 5.8OE, 2.9FG

That’s 19 senior starting guards in 34 seasons. Trevor Cooney is the 18th most statistically productive of them and yet he plays more minutes per game than any of them. It could be argued that minutes per game is based on the options available. It seems to me that was true the last couple of seasons but not this one: we have alternative line-ups that could have been used without him. Similarly, the argument that he gets more defensive attention than anyone because he’s our only outside shooter was more true the previous two years than it is this season.

The player Cooney most resembles is the only one below him in the standings, Marius Janulis. He actually scores more than the one-dimensional Janulis but misses far more shots, (Marius shot 41.)% overall and 39.6% from three point range as a senior: Trevor is 37.2% and 34.9% respectively). Trevor’s drives to the basket more and so got to the line more. He also commits far fewer fouls, the sign of a better defensive player. But, surprisingly, Janulis was a much better rebounder, (3.9 vs. 2.6). I had thought that Trevor was a bigger, stronger player than Marius but I looked it up and Janulis was listed at 6-5 218 and Trevor is 6-4, 195. I still think Trevor is a better athlete than Marius was, (I don’t remember Marius dunking). Marius was clearly a better shooter but I think Trevor has better all-around abilities and I would expect him to have better numbers than Marius. But he doesn’t.

Breaking it down stat by stat:

M- Alan Griffin is closest to Trevor at 36.7

P- Jason Hart and Scoop Jardine, both point guards, at 14.1 are the closest to Trevor.

R- Trevor is the worst rebounder of the 19 players: Sherman Douglas is at 2.8.

A – Trevor has fewer assists than any except Janulis being the closest at 2.6.

S- Despite his reputation as a ball hawk, 10 of the 19 players averaged more steals. Stevie Thompson was tied with him.

B- None of these guys were shot blockers, (although I remember Alan Griffin having an unbelievable one vs. St. John’s). Cooney has good hops but almost all the guys ahead of him, (Hopkins, Duany, Rautins, Moten, Autry and Addison) were taller than he is. Santifer, Thompsons and, surprisingly the 6-2 Scoop Jardine were equal to Trevor at 0.2.

+ Two guys were worse than Trevor’s 21.4. The closest was Lazarus Sims at 21.2 Sims had a great year as a distributor but wasn’t a scorer.

MFG- Four guys missed more shots than Trevor, with GMAC #1 and well ahead, (or behind) of him at 10.3. Autry was the closest at 8.1.

MFT- Twelve guys hurt us more at the free throw line. Raf Addison and Z Sims were on a par at 0.7 Stevie Thompson was easily the worst at 3.5.

TO- One thing you can say for Trevor: he doesn’t turn the ball over. Only Greg Monroe had as few turnovers at 1.8. But consider that exceeds his vaunted steals.

PF- Trevor also commits fewer fouls than anyone except GMAC.

- Only Sims, Monroe and Janulis have fewer negatives, even with Trevor’s missed shots. Andy Rautins has exactly the same number: 12.4

NP- Only Janulis was worse at 8.7 and he is also the closest.

OE- Only Griffin and Sims were less offensively efficient than Cooney and both were point guards who didn’t score much.

FG- Only Waldron and Janulis had a worse floor game than Trevor’s 3.8. Mike Hopkins, who I always though had a pretty good floor game, was the closest at 4.1.


So let’s put it together: If a senior starting SU guard played as much as Alan Griffin, scored like Jason Hart or Scoop Jardine, rebounded like Sherman Douglas, passed like Marius Janulis, stole the ball as often as Stevie Thompson, blocked shots like Thompson, Jardine and Eric Santifer, shot with Adrian Autry’s accuracy, shot fouls like Rafael Addison and Lazarus Sims, took care of the ball like Greg Monroe and fouled people at the rate of Gerry McNamara, you’d have a player close to Trevor Cooney. Some of those comparisons are favorable but you’re kind of matching the wrong skills with the wrong guys.

To be a senior starter for Syracuse University you’ve got to be a good college basketball player. But of the above group, Trevor Cooney is very close to the bottom. He’s played a lot because we haven’t had anyone better but I don’[t think that’s really true right now. I think it’s reasonable to say that if he’s playing poorly, someone else should get a chance. (However, fi the most obvious alternative, Malachi Richardson, is playing as badly, what are you going to do?)

Thanks for compiling this. Of course, this assumes that your Net Points metric is the "be all, end all" metric for evaluating and ranking players. I would suggest it is not, as it likely doesn't adequately account for defensive performance. You are also comparing players across different eras on this metric, and since the game has evolved in terms of how it is played over the years, I'd also view these comparisons with a grain of salt.

 

[djcon57]

I would suggest it is not, as it likely doesn't adequately account for defensive performance.

Cooney's Defensive Win Shares this year are 1.2, lower than every other "starter" (including Lydon over Coleman)

Last year, he was below Rak and G

The year before, he was below Fair and Ennis.

Is there any sort of stat/metric/anything that would suggest that he's an elite defender of any sort?

 

[br801]

Cooney's Defensive Win Shares this year are 1.2, lower than every other "starter" (including Lydon over Coleman)

Last year, he was below Rak and G

The year before, he was below Fair and Ennis.

Is there any sort of stat/metric/anything that would suggest that he's an elite defender of any sort?

I wasn't suggesting anything about Cooney specifically, just speaking generally about that group as a whole. And those advanced defensive metrics aren't available for that entire group, so we can only use them to compare the most recent players anyway.

 

[djcon57]

I wasn't suggesting anything about Cooney specifically, just speaking generally about that group as a whole. And those advanced defensive metrics aren't available for that entire group, so we can only use them to compare the most recent players anyway.

Ah, got it.

 

[CorduroyG]

Cooney's Defensive Win Shares this year are 1.2, lower than every other "starter" (including Lydon over Coleman)

Last year, he was below Rak and G

The year before, he was below Fair and Ennis.

Is there any sort of stat/metric/anything that would suggest that he's an elite defender of any sort?

boeheim says it!

 

[manleyzoo]

The only data I need is JBs and opposing coaches. There are also many things that can't be put into data.

The thing is Cooney gets multiple kudos for playing hard, being a good guy, a solid locker room presence, loved by the coaches, etc., etc. as if that somehow evens out his deficiencies as a player. That stuff is just the ante to play at this level, only a portion of a player's total contribution to the program not a measure of his overall production. Plenty of bench warmers get that kind of praise. Funny how it's nearly always attached in first mention of a bench player but rarely tagged in that manner to a great player. Did JB say first off Carmelo was a great guy, or did he say he was a great player first and followed up with, oh by the way, he's also a great guy?

I'm sure Cooney's a terrific young man from a terrific family and his dedication to the program is unmatched. But that still doesn't mitigate his sporadic and unpredictable production. Do the coaches know for sure at tip off if he's going 1 - 9 or 3 - 14 or will he go off? That's a measure of his performance not his personality. Wouldn't any player be criticized for such uneven results? Neither JB's nor other coaches' supposed opinions change the facts that his production, with basically one role offensively, is, well, let's just say it's unpredictable at best.

To me, one of his problems is that he plays smaller than his height and weaker than his strength. Going into the lane does he seem like a 6'4" guy or does his crouching down and then rising up make him appear much smaller? Does he play like a guy capable of pushing defenders around or does he give the impression of being weaker than he truly is? Does he dribble standing up like a tall guard or does he hunch over to half his height? And for such a great defender, why is he repeatedly trailing guys at the top of the key who go around him? How often does he convert off of all those steals like McW or many of our other starting guards did? Does he play his ass off? For sure he does but that's the expectation for all our players, isn't it? (See Roberson, T) So why is he praised and defended for merely doing what's expected?

I don't know him personally but my guess is he's a shy, very polite, unassuming young man who's a pleasure to be around. Frankly, I don't see the hate or the bashing. I see a player who fans believed had the determination and work ethic to be better but wasn't actually good enough to be better. Is he playing at the top of his ability? Without question. And most everyone here knows it. It's just not good enough much of the time. How that's hate is beyond me.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Good job on the analysis SWC. That's exactly the kind of data that can drive a good conversation about how Cooney has impacted the program. Now the trick is to unbury it from this crazy thread so people can actually find it.

 

[tbonezone]

as i noted in a post below we've played 5 games this month . trevor has averaged 38 minutes per game. he scored just 3 total baskets from inside the arc in that stretch. THREE! that's hard to do. especially if you hang your hat on defense and steals. 3 baskets in 5 games ? you'd think maybe an occasional fast break or put back would fall into your lap given all those minutes. mind boggling.

 

[EastCoast2]

I think many people are disappointed with Cooney's career because, while unrealistic, we expected him to be Grayson Allen before we knew who Grayson Allen was. Cooney wasn't a McD AA, but he was highly recruited by many major programs:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/67031/trevor-cooney

He was supposed to be a better shooter than Rautins, able to get to the rim like Devo, and be noticeably stronger and more athletic than both. We all saw his highlight films from AAU and high school of him driving down the lane and dunking with two hands, catching alley-oops on fast breaks, tip-slams, and swishing from 27 feet out. This is what Grayson Allen does right now for Duke.

A lot of us are disappointed because Grayson Allen was better as a freshman than Cooney is as a 5th year senior.

 

[rstone7727]

I think many people are disappointed with Cooney's career because, while unrealistic, we expected him to be Grayson Allen before we knew who Grayson Allen was. Cooney wasn't a McD AA, but he was highly recruited by many major programs:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/67031/trevor-cooney

He was supposed to be a better shooter than Rautins, able to get to the rim like Devo, and be noticeably stronger and more athletic than both. We all saw his highlight films from AAU and high school of him driving down the lane and dunking with two hands, catching alley-oops on fast breaks, tip-slams, and swishing from 27 feet out. This is what Grayson Allen does right now for Duke.

A lot of us are disappointed because Grayson Allen was better as a freshman than Cooney is as a 5th year senior.

Allen was a 5 star ranked 21st in his class and 6th by position. Cooney was a 4 star ranked 65th in his class and 17th by position. Allen is the type of player Duke and UK recruit. I don't feel it's fair to compare the two but sometimes incoming recruits at SU tend to be over hyped.

 

[EastCoast2]

Allen was a 5 star ranked 21st in his class and 6th by position. Cooney was a 4 star ranked 65th in his class and 17th by position. Allen is the type of player Duke and UK recruit. I don't feel it's fair to compare the two but sometimes incoming recruits at SU tend to be over hyped.

Read my first sentence again. Notice the word "unrealistic".