Top five greatest basketball players ever

[orangenirvana]

Malone over Duncan? I'm pro Malone but I think that's crazy.

Is it so crazy?

Raw Stats

PPG

Malone - 25.0
Duncan - 19.0

RPG

Duncan - 10.8
Malone - 10.1

Assists

Malone - 3.6
Duncan - 3.0

Steals

Malone - 1.4
Duncan - 0.7

Blocks

Duncan - 2.2
Malone - 0.8

Advanced Stats

PER

Duncan - 24.2
Malone - 23.9

Win Shares

Malone - 234.6
Duncan - 206.4

It's really, really close. Malone was better on offense, Duncan better on defense.

The only real difference (besides the fact that Duncan has played Center for much of his career) is Duncan's teams won titles while Malone's did not. If you consider that an individual accomplishment, then you'll likely give Duncan the nod. If you think Duncan is fortunate to have Pops as his coach and his teams did not have to face Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Olajuwon's Rockets or Jordan's Bulls, then you'll recognize Malone as on par if not better than Duncan.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Is it so crazy?

Raw Stats

PPG

Malone - 25.0
Duncan - 19.0

RPG

Duncan - 10.8
Malone - 10.1

Assists

Malone - 3.6
Duncan - 3.0

Steals

Malone - 1.4
Duncan - 0.7

Blocks

Duncan - 2.2
Malone - 0.8

Advanced Stats

PER

Duncan - 24.2
Malone - 23.9

Win Shares

Malone - 234.6
Duncan - 206.4

It's really, really close. Malone was better on offense, Duncan better on defense.

The only real difference (besides the fact that Duncan has played Center for much of his career) is Duncan's teams won titles while Malone's did not. If you consider that an individual accomplishment, then you'll likely give Duncan the nod. If you think Duncan is fortunate to have Pops as his coach and his teams did not have to face Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Olajuwon's Rockets or Jordan's Bulls, then you'll recognize Malone as on par if not better than Duncan.

I weigh playoff performance in the clutch and the fact Duncan was a defensive Anchor for 15 plus years. I know Malone was good on defense, but he did not anchor them defensively. He was surrounded by Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton through his entire career.

Duncan had to deal with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. He beat them, and he beat Lebron at his peak as well. I think part of the reason Duncan's stats aren't as good as Malone's is Popovich monitored his minutes for most of his career in the regular season because the Spurs had so much Depth.

 

[Knicks411]

Is it so crazy?

Raw Stats

PPG

Malone - 25.0
Duncan - 19.0

RPG

Duncan - 10.8
Malone - 10.1

Assists

Malone - 3.6
Duncan - 3.0

Steals

Malone - 1.4
Duncan - 0.7

Blocks

Duncan - 2.2
Malone - 0.8

Advanced Stats

PER

Duncan - 24.2
Malone - 23.9

Win Shares

Malone - 234.6
Duncan - 206.4

It's really, really close. Malone was better on offense, Duncan better on defense.

The only real difference (besides the fact that Duncan has played Center for much of his career) is Duncan's teams won titles while Malone's did not. If you consider that an individual accomplishment, then you'll likely give Duncan the nod. If you think Duncan is fortunate to have Pops as his coach and his teams did not have to face Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Olajuwon's Rockets or Jordan's Bulls, then you'll recognize Malone as on par if not better than Duncan.

I do think it's kinda crazy. Duncan was MUCH better on defense, dude anchored one of the best defenses in league history for a decade or more. I also think Duncan gets any of the intangible stuff over pretty much anyone in the history of the league. And Ducan beat the Kobe and Shaq Lakers, he beat the Lebron Heat, the Dirk Mavericks, the Webber/Peja Kings. It's not like they never beat anyone. The west was loaded for pretty much the entire decade

I've got Malone probably somewhere around 15-20 in my rankings, with Duncan possibly working his way into my top 5. So not a knock on Malone. I'd take Duncan over Malone ten times out of ten though.

 

[Eric15]

Is it so crazy?

Raw Stats

PPG

Malone - 25.0
Duncan - 19.0

RPG

Duncan - 10.8
Malone - 10.1

Assists

Malone - 3.6
Duncan - 3.0

Steals

Malone - 1.4
Duncan - 0.7

Blocks

Duncan - 2.2
Malone - 0.8

Advanced Stats

PER

Duncan - 24.2
Malone - 23.9

Win Shares

Malone - 234.6
Duncan - 206.4

It's really, really close. Malone was better on offense, Duncan better on defense.

The only real difference (besides the fact that Duncan has played Center for much of his career) is Duncan's teams won titles while Malone's did not. If you consider that an individual accomplishment, then you'll likely give Duncan the nod. If you think Duncan is fortunate to have Pops as his coach and his teams did not have to face Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Olajuwon's Rockets or Jordan's Bulls, then you'll recognize Malone as on par if not better than Duncan.

I personally have Duncan ahead of Malone, but this is a great post.

 

[orangenirvana]

I weigh playoff performance in the clutch and the fact Duncan was a defensive Anchor for 15 plus years. I know Malone was good on defense, but he did not anchor them defensively. He was surrounded by Greg Ostertag and Mark Eaton through his entire career.

Duncan had to deal with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. He beat them, and he beat Lebron at his peak as well. I think part of the reason Duncan's stats aren't as good as Malone's is Popovich monitored his minutes for most of his career in the regular season because the Spurs had so much Depth.

Was Malone not "clutch" in the playoffs? Is being a defensive anchor better than being an offensive anchor?

I'm sure Malone's efficiency would have been even better if he had the luxury of having his minutes monitored.

For the record I have no problem with having Duncan over Malone. I just don't think it's crazy to have them swapped.

 

[Knicks411]

Was Malone not "clutch" in the playoffs? Is being a defensive anchor better than being an offensive anchor?

I'm sure Malone's efficiency would have been even better if he had the luxury of having his minutes monitored.

Duncan anchored some of the best defensive teams of all time. The Jazz with Malone don't rank among the best offensive teams of all time, and even if they did, you could probably argue Stockton was as important as Malone was to those teams.

And I don't want to come off like I'm bashing Malone here. And fair point on the minutes thing; but I would also counter and say that as great as the Spurs were, Duncan never played with a PG as great as Stockton.

 

[Alsacs]

Was Malone not "clutch" in the playoffs? Is being a defensive anchor better than being an offensive anchor?

I'm sure Malone's efficiency would have been even better if he had the luxury of having his minutes monitored.

For the record I have no problem with having Duncan over Malone. I just don't think it's crazy to have them swapped.

Winning a championship just matters. Malone is a top 20 player all time I just can't see if you could choice Tim Duncan or Karl Malone anyone who wasn't a Jazz fan taking Malone before Duncan.

Malone had HCA over Jordan in 1998. The Jazz had the better team in 1998 and Chicago won. Jordan was alone. Harper/Puppen were playing hurt. Rodman was going on drug benders, Kukoc was awful. That series loss falls on Malone IMO.
If Malone had one ring his legacy puts him borderline top 10 and no doubt top 15.

Kevin Garnett vs. Karl Malone would be an interesting discussion. Garnett needed to be the 2nd banana on a championship team to win.

 

[73CAV]

I remember when Julius Irving was the next Elgin Baylor and when Michael Jordan was the next Dr. J and when Kobe Bryant was the next Michael Jordan and now, it appears, that LaBron James is the next in the "Next" list. Someone new will follow. Of course, I haven't seen Bob Cousy, Jerry West, or Larry Bird mentioned. At least someone brought Oscar Robertson into the discussion. And Robert Parish might be the most under appreciated player ever considering his play.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Duncan anchored some of the best defensive teams of all time. The Jazz with Malone don't rank among the best offensive teams of all time, and even if they did, you could probably argue Stockton was as important as Malone was to those teams.

And I don't want to come off like I'm bashing Malone here. And fair point on the minutes thing; but I would also counter and say that as great as the Spurs were, Duncan never played with a PG as great as Stockton.

No, but Tony Parker was Duncan's teammate for 15 seasons and he might not have been Stockton but he was a very good player. Also, tell me who Malone had as a teammate that would compare with David Robinson (6 seasons with TD) or Manu Ginobelli (14 seasons with TD).

I'm a Jazz fan but I have no problem with ranking Duncan ahead of Malone, solely based on Duncan's five rings. He's earned that respect.

 

[Knicks411]

No, but Tony Parker was Duncan's teammate for 15 seasons and he might not have been Stockton but he was a very good player. Also, tell me who Malone had as a teammate that would compare with David Robinson (6 seasons with TD) or Manu Ginobelli (14 seasons with TD).

I'm a Jazz fan but I have no problem with ranking Duncan ahead of Malone, solely based on Duncan's five rings. He's earned that respect.

I just meant purely as a PG; I think it's possible Malone's offensive numbers were a little inflated by playing with such a great PG is all. (And by the same token, I'm pretty sure Stockton's numbers were inflated by playing with Malone)

 

[orangenirvana]

And Ducan beat the Kobe and Shaq Lakers, he beat the Lebron Heat, the Dirk Mavericks, the Webber/Peja Kings.

Duncan anchored some of the best defensive teams of all time. The Jazz with Malone don't rank among the best offensive teams of all time, and even if they did, you could probably argue Stockton was as important as Malone was to those teams.

And I don't want to come off like I'm bashing Malone here. And fair point on the minutes thing; but I would also counter and say that as great as the Spurs were, Duncan never played with a PG as great as Stockton.

Stockton was an all-time great and certainly contributed to the Jazz success from the late 80's to early 00's. But Duncan didn't win all those titles by himself. He also got to play with a legend in The Admiral for his first two titles and Parker and Ginobli are no slouches.

 

[Bayside44]

Michael
Kobe
Magic
Larry
Dream

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I remember when Julius Irving was the next Elgin Baylor and when Michael Jordan was the next Dr. J and when Kobe Bryant was the next Michael Jordan and now, it appears, that LaBron James is the next in the "Next" list. Someone new will follow. Of course, I haven't seen Bob Cousy, Jerry West, or Larry Bird mentioned. At least someone brought Oscar Robertson into the discussion. And Robert Parish might be the most under appreciated player ever considering his play.

And one of the highest

 

[Knicks411]

ha I had to throw in those Kings. They were pretty damn good though, should have won the title in 2002. I'm not sure they were any worse than the Drexler Blazers.

 

[orangenirvana]

Winning a championship just matters. Malone is a top 20 player all time I just can't see if you could choice Tim Duncan or Karl Malone anyone who wasn't a Jazz fan taking Malone before Duncan.

Malone had HCA over Jordan in 1998. The Jazz had the better team in 1998 and Chicago won. Jordan was alone. Harper/Puppen were playing hurt. Rodman was going on drug benders, Kukoc was awful. That series loss falls on Malone IMO.
If Malone had one ring his legacy puts him borderline top 10 and no doubt top 15.

Kevin Garnett vs. Karl Malone would be an interesting discussion. Garnett needed to be the 2nd banana on a championship team to win.

Using championships is a good way to measure a team's greatness. An individual's? Meh.

It's that age-old debate of how much value we should place on championships when judging the greatness of an individual player. As I become older and wiser I veer more and more toward the side that goes against using team accomplishments to legitimize or negate an individual's greatness.

But I'm sure there are many out there who think Robert Horry is a Hall of Famer and Charles Barkley a bum.

 

[MikeSU02]

Michael
Kobe
Magic
Larry
Dream

I don't agree with that top five, but man does Dream not get enough love.

 

[Shawn91111]

Using championships is a good way to measure a team's greatness. An individual's? Meh.

It's that age-old debate of how much value we should place on championships when judging the greatness of an individual player. As I become older and wiser I veer more and more toward the side that goes against using team accomplishments to legitimize or negate an individual's greatness.

But I'm sure there are many out there who think Robert Horry is a Hall of Famer and Charles Barkley a bum.

But in your comparison all you are using is championships. Championships get factored in, just the same as MVP's, All NBA and All Defense do as well

 

[Bayside44]

I don't agree with that top five, but man does Dream not get enough love.

I'm too young for Wilt, Oscar, Russell so I didn't list those types.

The Dream was awesome, the guy was a physical marvel.

 

[Alsacs]

Using championships is a good way to measure a team's greatness. An individual's? Meh.

It's that age-old debate of how much value we should place on championships when judging the greatness of an individual player. As I become older and wiser I veer more and more toward the side that goes against using team accomplishments to legitimize or negate an individual's greatness.

But I'm sure there are many out there who think Robert Horry is a Hall of Famer and Charles Barkley a bum.

Nobody would say he is a bum but Barkley moves down the list because he never won a championship. If he won in 1993 he would a champion as the best player on the team.
Robert Horry is HOF role player with Danny Ainge, Michael Cooper, Vinnie Johnson, Sam Cassell. He isn't a HOF himself but being a winner helps.

Malone never won a title that hurts his alltime IMO just like Elgin Baylor never a won a title as an active player because of the Celtics and Knicks.

 

[RF2044]

Michael
Kobe
Magic
Larry
Dream

I like that you've listed Olajuwon, who doesn't often get mentioned with the all-time great centers, when he clearly is right up there with the best of all time. Maybe even top 3-5 good.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Was Malone not "clutch" in the playoffs? Is being a defensive anchor better than being an offensive anchor?

I'm sure Malone's efficiency would have been even better if he had the luxury of having his minutes monitored.

For the record I have no problem with having Duncan over Malone. I just don't think it's crazy to have them swapped.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and I know you love PER as a stat, but if you use Win Shares/48 that stat shows Stockton as the better player than Malone and MJ is number one all time in that as he is PER.

I think David Robinson is extremely underrated. He's 2nd all time in Win Shares/48 and 4th all time in PER. He just doesn't have the longevity and he didn't win anything until he played with Duncan. His block numbers the first three years in the league are ridiculous.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Who is your top five, based on whatever criteria you prefer. Mine...

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Magic
5. Russell

I flip-flopped Lebron and Magic after last night. And #5 was tough for me between Russell, Wilt, Kobe and Bird.

1. Bing
2. Pearl
3. DC
4. Melo
5. Moten

 

[NineOneSeven]

Stockton was an all-time great and certainly contributed to the Jazz success from the late 80's to early 00's. But Duncan didn't win all those titles by himself. He also got to play with a legend in The Admiral for his first two titles and Parker and Ginobli are no slouches.

Why? The Kings during the early 00s are easy to forget about because of LA, but they were absolutely a great team with Peja and Webber (both all-star players).

55-27, 61-21, 59-23, 55-27, 50-32 during 00-05. That's elite. In the playoffs they ran into LA with Kobe/Shaq, Dallas with Nash/Dirk, and Minnesota with Garnett...

 

[Briancuse]

I'm too young for Wilt, Oscar, Russell so I didn't list those types.

The Dream was awesome, the guy was a physical marvel.

So am I, but just by going by their numbers, and what people have said about them, I think you still have to put them up there.

 

[Eric15]

Michael
Kobe
Magic
Larry
Dream

I love Olajuwon, but by what metric is he better than Lebron?