Total Rebuild. 3-4 years. Nm

[GoSU96]

A lot of you video game guys are moving the goalposts . The fans were led to believe that if Shafer was replaced with a competent coach , all our problems would be solved and we would surely be going to a bowl , maybe a bigger bowl . Now your saying we lack talent to compete and that is Scott's fault . If only Shafer was bright enough to realize that we would have a better team if he recruited better players , what a dope . Now we should be patient , OK , great . I like Dino as much as Scott , but the expectations are already baked in the cake the way the last coach was treated and what was said about a quick return to success under Babers . That is where things are at and it is not a really a very solid position .

Scott Shafer had to go because not only did he have an offense the last two years that averaged 116th in total offense, 84th in rushing offense, 110th in passing offense, 109th in passing efficiency, 98th in scoring, 117th in first downs, 111th in 3rd down conversions, and 3.5 wins a year, but he had the worst defense since Gerg's last year, 98th in total defense, 78th in rushing, 100th in passing, 99th in pass efficiency defense, and 90th in scoring. The combined ranking of total offense and total defense was 216, which was worst than Gergs last year and only surpassed by the epic 2007 season which set what must be close to an all time NCAA historical worst of 225 when SU was ranked 114 total offense and 111th in total defense.

That's why Shafer had to go.

 

[GoSU96]

I don't expect immediate results , i have been trying to say that for some time only to get wack a moled by a group of people who think you wave a wand over our team and we become great . People who have led the fan base at large to believe the last coach was a bumbler and replacing him would be a quick fix . I have watched college football for a longtime and know that it is very difficult to right a wayward ship . I remember when Dan Hawkins , the guy that created the Boise State mystique , got the job at Colorado . It was a sure thing , can't miss , the best new approach available . He failed and Colorado still stinks . Dino might make , he might not but he certainly ha s some huge expectations on his back .

Just stop, where are you getting this nonsense.

Some time the truth is hard, this job was too much for him. He was a bumbler in a lot of ways. I have no idea if Kool Kid was his least worst option but he was a horrible hire, and Lester didn't do anything to make the offense materially better.

And Bullough was a fail also.

 

[CousCuse]

Scott Shafer had to go because not only did he have an offense the last two years that averaged 116th in total offense, 84th in rushing offense, 110th in passing offense, 109th in passing efficiency, 98th in scoring, 117th in first downs, 111th in 3rd down conversions, and 3.5 wins a year, but he had the worst defense since Gerg's last year, 98th in total defense, 78th in rushing, 100th in passing, 99th in pass efficiency defense, and 90th in scoring. The combined ranking of total offense and total defense was 216, which was worst than Gergs last year and only surpassed by the epic 2007 season which set what must be close to an all time NCAA historical worst of 225 when SU was ranked 114 total offense and 111th in total defense.

That's why Shafer had to go.

Ok Mr . Know it all . When your down to starting 1st year walk on QB 's for the last 2 years , it is going to make for some bad offense statistics and therefore , some bad defensive statistics as there is a relationship between the two which should be obvious , but it doesn't seem like some posters here get the concept . But my central point is that the narrative was we have enough talent to win and win big if we just get a smart guy . That is clearly not the case and unless there are some big time leaps in recruiting , that will continue to be the case .

 

[CousCuse]

Just stop, where are you getting this nonsense.

Some time the truth is hard, this job was too much for him. He was a bumbler in a lot of ways. I have no idea if Kool Kid was his least worst option but he was a horrible hire, and Lester didn't do anything to make the offense materially better.

And Bullough was a fail also.

Don't give me your contrite just stop BS . We are a 7 point dog to CONNECTICUT . This team could easily end up at 1-11 if they lose this game .

 

[kirbivore]

I think the players have actually adapted quicker than this staff thought they would. Dino is in the big leagues now and yesterday he was exposed a bit. The players are fine and getting the system. At moments he needs to protect his subpar defense and punt and make the opposition go the length of the field (the 4th down call up 17-7). Also, after beautifully game planning and establishing the inside run, we failed to use play action and go up top, go for the jugular up 17-0. At this level its a a few plays that can make a difference.

We don't have Blue Curtain and Igor anymore on the basketball board, so I'm glad you can keep their spirit alive on the football board.

 

[Ish88888]

We don't have Blue Curtain and Igor anymore on the basketball board, so I'm glad you can keep their spirit alive on the football board.

Not sure who you are speaking of, but way to intelligently address my post with fb talk.

 

[SUinNYC]

I think people forget that Shafer took this season off.

Can you imagine where we'd be if we retained him and he needed that time?

Shafer was medically incapable of coaching this season. We were very lucky as a program and he was lucky as a person to be fired.

EDIT: Every night I thank my lord and savior for Mark Coyle and his wisdom.

 

[Cusefan78]

Shafer was medically incapable of coaching this season. We were very lucky as a program and he was lucky as a person to be fired.

EDIT: Every night I thank my lord and savior for Mark Coyle and his wisdom.

Did I miss something. Was something released about his medical history. I was told he wanted to watch his kid play ball.

 

[TheCusian]

Ok Mr . Know it all . When your down to starting 1st year walk on QB 's for the last 2 years , it is going to make for some bad offense statistics and therefore , some bad defensive statistics as there is a relationship between the two which should be obvious , but it doesn't seem like some posters here get the concept . But my central point is that the narrative was we have enough talent to win and win big if we just get a smart guy . That is clearly not the case and unless there are some big time leaps in recruiting , that will continue to be the case .

But that's not the narrative. It never was. The narrative was that we had a defensive minded coach who didn't know what to with offense and was headed in reverse on defense, a prime venue for a style of football that involves tempo and speed, and talent that was lagging behind our peers, AND a spot in the country where we may need to do more with less for a long, long while. Not to mention SS actual record.

This coach can and will do more with less - but it will take time. My central point is that the SS brigade believes this is some kind of bust after 3 games when it took 3 years to properly evaluate the direction under SS. I stood up for SS for a long time and Babers is entitled to the same defense. (Also, we are 20th in overall offense. I know, I know the metric isn't portraying our efficiency - but 20th. That's a pretty big jump. 80+ spots)

 

[Cusefan78]

But that's not the narrative. It never was. The narrative was that we had a defensive minded coach who didn't know what to with offense and was headed in reverse on defense, a prime venue for a style of football that involves tempo and speed, and talent that was lagging behind our peers, AND a spot in the country where we may need to do more with less for a long, long while. Not to mention SS actual record.

This coach can and will do more with less - but it will take time. My central point is that the SS brigade believes this is some kind of bust after 3 games when it took 3 years to properly evaluate the direction under SS. I stood up for SS for a long time and Babers is entitled to the same defense. (Also, we are 20th in overall offense. I know, I know the metric isn't portraying our efficiency - but 20th. That's a pretty big jump. 80+ spots)

I agree with everything minus three years. Unless babers burns down the dome he needs 4 years at the very least. We made the change last year now we need a complete rebuild and it ain't happening in one or two seasons. It might click in 1.5 but the corner won't be turned that shortly. Give him every chance to win and that will take 4 recruiting cycles

 

[CousCuse]

But that's not the narrative. It never was. The narrative was that we had a defensive minded coach who didn't know what to with offense and was headed in reverse on defense, a prime venue for a style of football that involves tempo and speed, and talent that was lagging behind our peers, AND a spot in the country where we may need to do more with less for a long, long while. Not to mention SS actual record.

This coach can and will do more with less - but it will take time. My central point is that the SS brigade believes this is some kind of bust after 3 games when it took 3 years to properly evaluate the direction under SS. I stood up for SS for a long time and Babers is entitled to the same defense. (Also, we are 20th in overall offense. I know, I know the metric isn't portraying our efficiency - but 20th. That's a pretty big jump. 80+ spots)

I'm not defending SS per se , I'm defending the head coaching position at Syracuse . It is a very difficult coaching job and now Dino is in that position and will need a lot of support with no expectations because this is going to be a long and slow process . 4-6 years is not an unreasonable estimate .

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not defending SS per se , I'm defending the head coaching position at Syracuse . It is a very difficult coaching job and now Dino is in that position and will need a lot of support with no expectations because this is going to be a long and slow process . 4-6 years is not an unreasonable estimate .

I don't have any expectations outside of getting better. I think most here share that assessment.

Side note: 4-6 years for what goal? Winning the ACC? Making a bowl?

 

[leftytg]

Perspective, people.

Art Briles went 4-8, 4-8, and 7-6 his first three years at Baylor before busting out with a 10 win season in year four.

Briles had an established offensive system and found success at the mid major level with it before being hired to implement it at the P5 level. Sound familiar? He landed at a school with lagging talent relative to peers and an established pattern of losing. Sound familiar?

Change is hard. Implementing this brand new way of doing things is hard. Transition will, necessarily, lead to mistakes and lack of efficiency. I get that, as fans, we love to dissect what just happened and pour over it all week until the next game, but in this time of transition it is best to think in terms of broader trajectories. This team isn't good. This team coached by the love child of Nick Saban and Vince Lombardi wouldn't be good. Look for signs of the team grasping the concepts. Look for glimpses of potential for what can be, and then see how those glimpses increase in frequency.

Compare where the team is at in the beginning of the year to what they look like at the end of the year. Is there growth? A deeper, more second nature understanding of what they are doing? Are there fewer breakdowns? Is the rhythm sustained for longer periods of time? That is how to define success in year one. Too strong a focus on the nitty gritty week to week misses the forest for the trees.

 

[Newhouser]

If we aren't competitive Saturday against UCONN, I for one am not going to buy the lack of talent argument. UCONN is a bad football team, that lacks talented players.

 

[GoSU96]

Perspective, people.

Art Briles went 4-8, 4-8, and 7-6 his first three years at Baylor before busting out with a 10 win season in year four.

Briles had an established offensive system and found success at the mid major level with it before being hired to implement it at the P5 level. Sound familiar? He landed at a school with lagging talent relative to peers and an established pattern of losing. Sound familiar?

Change is hard. Implementing this brand new way of doing things is hard. Transition will, necessarily, lead to mistakes and lack of efficiency. I get that, as fans, we love to dissect what just happened and pour over it all week until the next game, but in this time of transition it is best to think in terms of broader trajectories. This team isn't good. This team coached by the love child of Nick Saban and Vince Lombardi wouldn't be good. Look for signs of the team grasping the concepts. Look for glimpses of potential for what can be, and then see how those glimpses increase in frequency.

Compare where the team is at in the beginning of the year to what they look like at the end of the year. Is there growth? A deeper, more second nature understanding of what they are doing? Are there fewer breakdowns? Is the rhythm sustained for longer periods of time? That is how to define success in year one. Too strong a focus on the nitty gritty week to week misses the forest for the trees.

Last year aside, SU is in a much sounder position than Baylor was when Briles took over. Or when Marrone took over for Robinson.

22-28 is much better than 10-37, prior four years Babers vs Marrone, or 15-31 when Briles took over at Baylor. In fact Baylor won more than 3 games twice in the ten years prior to Briles taking on the program. At SU winning less than four games has only happened once when Gerg wasn't the coach in the last ten years.

Gergian SU or pre-Briles Baylor or pre Harbaugh Stanford are dumpster fires of epic historical proportions. SU under Shafer, while bad, is not close to those disasters. Marginal Cat 3 vs true Cat 5's.

 

[BKCuse]

Don't give me your contrite just stop BS . We are a 7 point dog to CONNECTICUT . This team could easily end up at 1-11 if they lose this game .

Being a dog to UConn is nothing short of embarrassing. It's a real slap in the face to where we are at but I place most of that blame on lack of talent to fit this system and too many sub-par players brought in by SS.

Remember the list of final destinations for Shaf's verbals after Dino took over. UMass was the best school any of them went to.

Ironically UMass would prob be favored against us today.

 

[phil77]

I like Shafer well enough but some of the people on this board have some sort of weird obsession with him. HCSS just wasn't P5 head coaching material. Does that mean he wasn't a good person or a hell of a guy? No by all accounts he was a great individual but that doesn't mean he was a great head coach.

With some of the recent posts in this thread it is almost like you guys are wishing Syracuse will fail so you can defend HCSS. Almost like you are his family member or something.

What I see on the field compared to last year is hope. I see flashes on offense and some on defense. 1st Q against USF comes to mind. Right now we don't have the athletes or depth to maintain that level of play for an entire game. I never felt there was hope last year. Will HCDB pan out as a P5 coach? Who knows that book is yet to be written but to right him off and put him down already to try and build up HCSS is terrible. With your we fired Shafer for less or the offense was better than last year garbage.

If you are a fan and supporter of Syracuse then you would be supporting the head coach no matter who it is not living in the past because you liked the personality or style the last head coach played on the field.

 

[orangecuse]

I like Shafer well enough but some of the people on this board have some sort of weird obsession with him. HCSS just wasn't P5 head coaching material. Does that mean he wasn't a good person or a hell of a guy? No by all accounts he was a great individual but that doesn't mean he was a great head coach.

With some of the recent posts in this thread it is almost like you guys are wishing Syracuse will fail so you can defend HCSS. Almost like you are his family member or something.

What I see on the field compared to last year is hope. I see flashes on offense and some on defense. 1st Q against USF comes to mind. Right now we don't have the athletes or depth to maintain that level of play for an entire game. I never felt there was hope last year. Will HCDB pan out as a P5 coach? Who knows that book is yet to be written but to right him off and put him down already to try and build up HCSS is terrible. With your we fired Shafer for less or the offense was better than last year garbage.

If you are a fan and supporter of Syracuse then you would be supporting the head coach no matter who it is not living in the past because you liked the personality or style the last head coach played on the field.

That's nonsense. People are here because they all bleed frigging ORANGE! You certainly don't have to agree with one's viewpoint...but I clearly doubt (deep down) that anyone here is wishing for Syracuse to fail.

 

[phil77]

That's nonsense. People are here because they all bleed frigging ORANGE! You certainly don't have to agree with one's viewpoint...but I clearly doubt (deep down) that anyone here is wishing for Syracuse to fail.

I think some people want to be right no matter what. Whatever it takes for them to be proven correct is what I think they are hoping for deep down.

 

[DoctorBombay]

That's nonsense. People are here because they all bleed frigging ORANGE! You certainly don't have to agree with one's viewpoint...but I clearly doubt (deep down) that anyone here is wishing for Syracuse to fail.

Fair enough. But while I agree with the idea that we all bleed Orange and want the same thing, there is a tinge of irrationality in some of the comparisons to HCSS, and the 3 games w/ HCDB that we've seen so far.
How anyone can reach such concrete conclusions after such a small sample is beyond me. I'm not saying folks are hoping for failure, but how do you justify what some have posted since that last game?
The longing for the "good old days" of the Schafer Era is delusional, IMO. I can definitely understand why some might question the motives behind it, since it really doesn't make much sense. No one ever suggested instant success, least of all Babers himself. Yet, in these "instant gratification/microwaveable" times, it appears that that's what some in this fanbase truly believed would happen.
It's just ridiculous to witness, is all. JMHO

 

[DoctorBombay]

If we aren't competitive Saturday against UCONN, I for one am not going to buy the lack of talent argument. UCONN is a bad football team, that lacks talented players.

UConn is a decent team that beat Houston & went to a bowl last year. But even more important, they're in their THIRD year in the system with that HC. A loss is not out of the question, but you're right- at the very least we need to be competitive.

 

[ssmorol]

Marrone had us on the verge of the top 25 and left for a better job in the NFL. That's "wuss"? Winning here and then taking a better job?

People are quick to forget that Marrone was 4-8 in his first year.

 

[Alsacs]

Scott Shafer went 14-23 he didn't deserve patience. Dino Babers is 1-2. We struggled against Louisville and completely gagged against USF. USF has more talent on its roster than Syracuse currently does. Until we lose games to Wake Forest, Boston College this year I will not even think about being frustrated.

Babers deserves patience he has a track record. Scott Shafer was lucky to get the job when he did. No P5 team was going to give him a HC job based on his track record with Syracuse. The guy won the lottery and seems to genuinely understand that.

 

[leftytg]

Last year aside, SU is in a much sounder position than Baylor was when Briles took over. Or when Marrone took over for Robinson.

22-28 is much better than 10-37, prior four years Babers vs Marrone, or 15-31 when Briles took over at Baylor. In fact Baylor won more than 3 games twice in the ten years prior to Briles taking on the program. At SU winning less than four games has only happened once when Gerg wasn't the coach in the last ten years.

Gergian SU or pre-Briles Baylor or pre Harbaugh Stanford are dumpster fires of epic historical proportions. SU under Shafer, while bad, is not close to those disasters. Marginal Cat 3 vs true Cat 5's.

that's a distinction without a difference, in my opinion.

For one, Shafer benefits from inheriting the program from Marrone, who had righted the ship. Shafer than proceeded to capsize the ship all over again. The aggregate numbers look better than the actual state of the program at the end of Shafer's tenure.

But, more importantly, the difference in wins isn't particularly meaningful. It is besides the point to argue really bad vs. kinda bad. The big picture point is that Syracuse has been recruiting marginal talent for meathead football. The roster isn't particularly big, fast, or skilled. Dino is in the process of turning that over and de-programming bad habits and teaching good habits. That takes time and it is a bumpy road.

Expecting Syracuse to bypass that bumpy learning curve and be good quickly because Syracuse was only kinda bad whereas Baylor was really bad is misguided. The main takeaway is that 1) this system works and 2) it takes time to a) mold existing talent to the new system and b) recruit new, better fitting talent to the system.

 

[Cusefan78]

I think some people want to be right no matter what. Whatever it takes for them to be proven correct is what I think they are hoping for deep down.

I want nothing but success for syracuse. I have spent every home game minus the holiday weekends at the dome since I was 8 years old. I missed one grob game. I have watched some of the worst division one football that has ever been played and I still come back to get punched in the stomach every week. I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to complain about our pathetic defense. As far as I'm concerned su owes me a few days of my life back or a free beer