Update On SU's APR Score?

[Shenexon]

Do any of you have some insight into where the APR for the SU Bball team will fall this year? We were only a few points above the cut line last year and hope there is good news in May.

 

[Knicks411]

Whatever it is, this years score won't come out until next May. Last year's score will come out this May. The prior year was 1,000. We haven't lost anyone, so as far as I know we should be fine?

 

[iommi]

Whatever it is, this years score won't come out until next May. Last year's score will come out this May. The prior year was 1,000. We haven't lost anyone, so as far as I know we should be fine?

We lost Mookie. Did he finish out the semester requirements? Big concern too with Dion and Fab. We could be in big trouble with the APR down the road, no? Hopefully, Scoop and Kris will help us.

 

[EastCoast2]

We lost Mookie. Did he finish out the semester requirements? Big concern too with Dion and Fab. We could be in big trouble with the APR down the road, no? Hopefully, Scoop and Kris will help us.

As far as I know, Scoop, Kris, BT, MCW, Rak, Cooney, Dirty, CJ are all good students

 

[HoustonCuse]

The APR system is broken if players bolting for the NBA and ditching coursework can cripple the program long term. Bill Gates seemed to do ok leaving college early to turn pro.

 

[pfister1]

We lost Mookie. Did he finish out the semester requirements? Big concern too with Dion and Fab. We could be in big trouble with the APR down the road, no? Hopefully, Scoop and Kris will help us.

Mookie may not count because he bolted before the second semester started so he may have finished his first semester course work.

 

[iommi]

Mookie may not count because he bolted before the second semester started so he may have finished his first semester course work.

Yeah, I was talking about his first semester requirements. Hope he finished that semester and then it won't count against us.

 

[OttoMets]

The APR system is broken if players bolting for the NBA and ditching coursework can cripple the program long term. Bill Gates seemed to do ok leaving college early to turn pro.

Well, certainly, but that's a false analogy. The APR isn't designed to look out for the financial well-being of former students. The idea is to even the playing field by punishing schools who don't hold their students to standards.

Anyhoo, we could have a roster with a majority of good students and still draw the short straw. We've currently (sans Mookie) got an 11-man roster. Assuming Mookie fulfilled his requirements before leaving, our highest possible number of APR credits for this academic year would be 46 (four each for the full-year students and two for Mookie). We're already docked one for Mookie's departure. If two certain somebodies leave school, we lose two more; if they've also blown off their second-semester coursework, that's another two. If we earn 41 of the possible 46 credits, our APR is 891. Trouble.

(Edit - one a more positive note, if we have two NBA early-entrants who have fulfilled their current course obligations, we earn two more credits and we have a 934.)

 

[MGP]

"I understand Mookie left in good academic standing" - as per Donna Ditota 5 minutes ago.

 

[Knicks411]

Anyhoo, we could have a roster with a majority of good students and still draw the short straw. We've currently (sans Mookie) got an 11-man roster. Assuming Mookie fulfilled his requirements before leaving, our highest possible number of APR credits for this academic year would be 46 (four each for the full-year students and two for Mookie). We're already docked one for Mookie's departure. If two certain somebodies leave school, we lose two more; if they've also blown off their second-semester coursework, that's another two. If we earn 41 of the possible 46 credits, our APR is 891. Trouble.

I thought if they left early, but were in good standing, we were fine? (Or is that what your edit is referring to?)

Mookie might hurt us, but that doesn't even come until next year. A bad score that year could hurt us, though. We only know of 2 scores for sure right now

2009: 865
2010: 1000

2011 comes out this May, we should be close to 1,000 for that, right? If 2012 is an 891, then we'd need 2011 to be a 964 in order for the 4 year rolling score to be 930. If it's 934, we'd need it to be 921.

Like I said, we didn't lose anyone last year, did we? So I think 2011 is going to be very close to 1000, which means as long as Fab and Dion keep up on their coursework, we'll be fine. And even if they don't, we should be ok if the number is anywhere close to 1000.

 

[caw]

I thought if they left early, but were in good standing, we were fine? (Or is that what your edit is referring to?)

I don't know Cuse's standing, but if a student transfers or leaves early for the NBA/pro basketball, the school can apply for a waiver for the lost points (retention points).

This assumes said player transfers to a certain type of school, Junior Colleges are bad. It also requires said player to be in good academic standing, I believe.

There is some question as to if the point is actually given back to the school or the point is taken away from the divisor. For example, if the max was 46 and Cuse lost only a point for Mookie so stands at 45/46 before the waiver; after the waiver it is unclear if their point total goes back up to 46/46 or down to 45/45. It can make a difference when calculating 4 year rolling scores, as 46/46 is better than 45/45 if any points are lost in any of the other 3 years due to the different weights.

Take the above and say a school lost 4 other points due to academics. Now you have a situation where 41/46 goes to either 42/46 (913) or 41/45 (911). Small difference but if you are talking 4 year averages it can add up. Or if you take an extreme example where a school is 10 points down 36/46 (783) but gets 3 back on 46 points you go either to 39/46 (848) or 36/43 (837) which is a huge difference. I really wish the NCAA would clarify this.

 

[reedny]

I don't know Cuse's standing, but if a student transfers or leaves early for the NBA/pro basketball, the school can apply for a waiver for the lost points (retention points).

This assumes said player transfers to a certain type of school, Junior Colleges are bad. It also requires said player to be in good academic standing, I believe.

There is some question as to if the point is actually given back to the school or the point is taken away from the divisor. For example, if the max was 46 and Cuse lost only a point for Mookie so stands at 45/46 before the waiver; after the waiver it is unclear if their point total goes back up to 46/46 or down to 45/45. It can make a difference when calculating 4 year rolling scores, as 46/46 is better than 45/45 if any points are lost in any of the other 3 years due to the different weights.

Take the above and say a school lost 4 other points due to academics. Now you have a situation where 41/46 goes to either 42/46 (913) or 41/45 (911). Small difference but if you are talking 4 year averages it can add up. Or if you take an extreme example where a school is 10 points down 36/46 (783) but gets 3 back on 46 points you go either to 39/46 (848) or 36/43 (837) which is a huge difference. I really wish the NCAA would clarify this.

I need a beer after reading this.

 

[pfister1]

I understood rules for getting the student/athletes in the door, but now there are rules for how you send them out too? Oy vey, no wonder UConn is having so much trouble with this.

 

[caw]

I need a beer after reading this.

LOL, I was going off what I have read/put together. A fantastic poster on the UConn site posted the following:

"There's a sample APR worksheet that floats around that the NCAA uses in training. (it's all software now)

Players who leave in bad standing are always 0-2.
Ineligible but retained 1-2.

------------------- Common Waivers If In Good Standing --------------------------------------------------------
1) Transfers to a Div I school: 1-2. Teams lose the retention point. Adjusted to a 2-2 if 2.6 or better GPA
2) Players going pro 1-2. Adjusted to a 1-1 on waiver -- the retention point is dropped entirely.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"

So the players going pro just drop the retention point and Transfers can gain it back. I apologize for the previous post. As I said, I was working directly from the NCAA site and well, they don't have the above on it anywhere.

 

[OttoMets]

I thought if they left early, but were in good standing, we were fine? (Or is that what your edit is referring to?)

Mookie might hurt us, but that doesn't even come until next year. A bad score that year could hurt us, though. We only know of 2 scores for sure right now

2009: 865
2010: 1000

2011 comes out this May, we should be close to 1,000 for that, right? If 2012 is an 891, then we'd need 2011 to be a 964 in order for the 4 year rolling score to be 930. If it's 934, we'd need it to be 921.

Like I said, we didn't lose anyone last year, did we? So I think 2011 is going to be very close to 1000, which means as long as Fab and Dion keep up on their coursework, we'll be fine. And even if they don't, we should be ok if the number is anywhere close to 1000.

Bingo, 2011 should be close to 1000; I think CAW got it right above. Last year we lost Dashonte, but he left in good standing (so we keep that point) and we lost the retention point (but I think we get it back if he graduates from EMU).

We'll always lose the retention point for people who leave and don't graduate from college in the window, but we can stay healthy even if we lose those points. We really just need everyone in good academic standing.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So... it behooves a school to use all of their scholarships?

 

[caw]

So... it behooves a school to use all of their scholarships?

Yes, because it means one player has less of weight if they mess up. The Catch-22 is that this also means more players are likely to transfer and there are more players to keep track of at the school.

 

[bpo57]

D

Well, certainly, but that's a false analogy. The APR isn't designed to look out for the financial well-being of former students. The idea is to even the playing field by punishing schools who don't hold their students to standards.

Anyhoo, we could have a roster with a majority of good students and still draw the short straw. We've currently (sans Mookie) got an 11-man roster. Assuming Mookie fulfilled his requirements before leaving, our highest possible number of APR credits for this academic year would be 46 (four each for the full-year students and two for Mookie). We're already docked one for Mookie's departure. If two certain somebodies leave school, we lose two more; if they've also blown off their second-semester coursework, that's another two. If we earn 41 of the possible 46 credits, our APR is 891. Trouble.

(Edit - one a more positive note, if we have two NBA early-entrants who have fulfilled their current course obligations, we earn two more credits and we have a 934.)

Does that 11 man roster include Brandon Reese and Cooney? Reese is a scholarship player. Those two would bring us to twelve. It is my understanding that some schools are giving scholarships (assuming they have them available to give) to walk-ons when they become upperclassmen for two reasons - a) reward them for hard work and b) improve the school's APR scores.

 

[reedny]

LOL, I was going off what I have read/put together. A fantastic poster on the UConn site posted the following:

"There's a sample APR worksheet that floats around that the NCAA uses in training. (it's all software now)

Players who leave in bad standing are always 0-2.
Ineligible but retained 1-2.

------------------- Common Waivers If In Good Standing --------------------------------------------------------
1) Transfers to a Div I school: 1-2. Teams lose the retention point. Adjusted to a 2-2 if 2.6 or better GPA
2) Players going pro 1-2. Adjusted to a 1-1 on waiver -- the retention point is dropped entirely.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"

So the players going pro just drop the retention point and Transfers can gain it back. I apologize for the previous post. As I said, I was working directly from the NCAA site and well, they don't have the above on it anywhere.

Much easier, but I'm still going to have a beer anyway. We need a pinned link to that worksheet so we can still make the computations after 2 - Smithwicks.

 

[OttoMets]

D


Does that 11 man roster include Brandon Reese and Cooney? Reese is a scholarship player. Those two would bring us to twelve. It is my understanding that some schools are giving scholarships (assuming they have them available to give) to walk-ons when they become upperclassmen for two reasons - a) reward them for hard work and b) improve the school's APR scores.

Thanks, forgot all about Cooney. Twelve guys on the current roster.

 

[bpo57]

Btw, SU's multi-year APR was 928 as of May, 2011. That was the third lowest in the BE behind UConn (893) and Providence (925). It should rise next year but it is critical that if we lose people early that they finish their course load in the spring semester or else we could have problems down the line.

 

[reedny]

Cooney counts against the schollie limit even though he's a RS. His ship brought us to 13 (by edit, courtesy bpo57), but Mookie's departure brought us back down to 12.

 

[bpo57]

Cooney counts against the schollie limit even though he's a RS. His ship brought us to 12, but Mookie's departure brought us back down to 11.

Joesph, Jardine, Keita, Fab, Fair, Southerland, Waiters, Triche, MCW, Cooney, Raq and Reese is 12.

 

[reedny]

Joesph, Jardine, Keita, Fab, Fair, Southerland, Waiters, Triche, MCW, Cooney, Raq and Reese is 12.

OMG, I forgot about Reese! Can I blame this on the Smithwicks?

Right you are, 12 with Reese. He wasn't originally a scholarship player, so he's not on my list. I'll rectify that straight away.

 

[bpo57]

OMG, I forgot about Reese! Can I blame this on the Smithwicks?

Right you are, 12 with Reese. He wasn't originally a scholarship player, so he's not on my list. I'll rectify that straight away.

Just think if Fab and DW left early and we don't recruit anybody else besides Grant and DC2. We'd have only 9 scholarship players. Some of the upperclass walk-ons might get lucky.