Why no PGs?

[Shark58]

Hey now. This is my first post here, but I've been a lurker for a while. This is a quality board with (mostly) intelligent Cuse discussion so I wanted to see what the crowd here has to say about a glaring roster weakness that seems to be getting 0.0 attention, namely the lack of PG depth.

I understand the staff probably didn't see Ennis as a one & done but now that its happened why is seemingly nothing being done about it? (In actuality something shoulda been done before as the lack of depth behind TE PhD really hurt the team in the long run last year).

I love that Kaleb is highly regarded and hope he does great but injuries/foul plagued games happen and silent g is the only real current option behind him, and probably not the greatest long term answer should anything really bad happen. Not sure if Buss has the handle to run the 1. Not sure if we want to see Trev try it again either. For '15 we have 2 new 2's coming in, but nothing I've been able to read about either shows me that PG could be covered. Malachi is a gunner and I haven't heard that Howard can handle the rock well enough to run the show.

Even with the full class for '15, JB & Co are still on the recruiting trail (Bryant & Jones) but not searching for a quality PG or even someone who can be a 4-year system guy. Ponderous. (side note: in order to get one of those two, someone will have to go either via transfer or early jump. What if that someone turns out to be Kaleb J?)

 

[stuckinbig11]

What if? What if? What if every player over 6'8" was injured or if they all left school for one reason or another. A lot of things in this world would be different if we had perfect forecasting. Ennis and Grant should have stayed another year, but who knew?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'll be honest, it confuses me. Surprised we haven't taken a flyer on any of the 5th year guys that can play immediately. Maybe we still will, but yeah, it's a pretty glaring roster hole.

 

[cuseguy]

I'll be honest, it confuses me. Surprised we haven't taken a flyer on any of the 5th year guys that can play immediately. Maybe we still will, but yeah, it's a pretty glaring roster hole.

It's not happening.

Most of us feel we could use a backup point.

JB apparently thinks we're fine.

I've moved on, but we're playing with fire.

 

[HOFCeluck]

It's a two way street. Anyone looking has to know that Kaleb is going to get every chance to succeed. So a fifth year guy can either go someplace where they know they can get immediate PT or come here and hope Kaleb needs more time.

Maybe JB would rather give the minutes to guys that he's recruited and let them develop rather than go for short term success with a guy who's looking to audition for the League. Just trying to get in Boeheims head.

 

[Shark58]

Its not even about a 5th year guy, although that would be 1 answer. Last year we had 1 "real" PG and it burned us. This year we will have 1 "real" PG and we have recruited exactly 0.0 of them for the following year ('15) and don't look to even be in the mix for any in '16 (I'm no scout but what I hear of Battle is that he is a 2, not a 1).

Even if there are no scollies left, how about a talented walk on who would rather be at the end of the rotation at a big time school than be a starter/rotation guy for some mid/low-major? There are a few (semi) local guys who would fit that bill, and given the current depth chart at 1, you figure that guy would play a pretty major role sometime during his Orange career.

 

[thebigeast44]

How did having one point guard last year burn us? Ennis was healthy, so the lack of a pure backup point made little difference. If Kaleb were to be injured this year, it will have a significant impact no question. But why would a player want to come here as a 5th year player and sit? Ideally, you want a frosh to come into backup a player who is graduating or likely to go pro soon. Which is what even Ennis thought was going to be the case in the coming year. Sometimes the timing just doesn't work out.

 

[HOFCeluck]

How did having one point guard last year burn us? Ennis was healthy, so the lack of a pure backup point made little difference. If Kaleb were to be injured this year, it will have a significant impact no question. But why would a player want to come here as a 5th year player and sit? Ideally, you want a frosh to come into backup a player who is graduating or likely to go pro soon. Which is what even Ennis thought was going to be the case in the coming year. Sometimes the timing just doesn't work out.

I think he means it burned us because he left early.

 

[tptcuse]

(side note: in order to get one of those two, someone will have to go either via transfer or early jump. What if that someone turns out to be Kaleb J?)

This part of your post is the scariest possibility, although it seems unlikely.

I am holding out hope that Silent G makes big strides. It would be in his best interest to focus on PG skills...with his height, he could actually make some waves in a couple years at the 1 if he can progress.

 

[Shark58]

How did having one point guard last year burn us? Ennis was healthy, so the lack of a pure backup point made little difference. If Kaleb were to be injured this year, it will have a significant impact no question. But why would a player want to come here as a 5th year player and sit? Ideally, you want a frosh to come into backup a player who is graduating or likely to go pro soon. Which is what even Ennis thought was going to be the case in the coming year. Sometimes the timing just doesn't work out.

imho, a big part of the late season swoon last year was due to fatigue. I know they are both kids and top flight athletes so theoretically they could all play 40 a game, but that doesn't play out in reality all that well. When injuries hit, the short rotation was tested by JB's refusal to go deeper with the likes of Buss, BJ & Roberson. Not that we had an option to spell Tyler other than g, but what if we did? I think that having a guy who could play a competent 5-8 mins a game would have done wonders come Feb/March.

This part of your post is the scariest possibility, although it seems unlikely.

I am holding out hope that Silent G makes big strides. It would be in his best interest to focus on PG skills...with his height, he could actually make some waves in a couple years at the 1 if he can progress.

I agree KJ going pro seems unlikely, just like Tyler last year and MickeyDubz the year before. I understand the plan was MCW/TE last year & TE/KJ this upcoming but it obviously didn't pan out that way. It isn't so much that they don't have another PG, its more that they don't seem to even be looking for one that baffles me.

As for g, I'd love for him to take hold of some serious 1 skills. It would give him a shot at the League. For '14/15 however I feel his best role, given the current rotation and depth, it as a Dionesque instant offense combo guard (w/ 6th man of the year candidate upside potential) as well as seeing some fairly significant time at the 3 (5+/gm).



quick question (since I'm new here): are new posts/threads always moderated before going public, or am I on some kind of probation?

 

[ORANGEsPHK]

JB has said before that he doesn't regard his guards are pure point or scoring guards - I think he said this during the Scoop/Triche years. Although I'm a little miffed by that comment myself, it does give insight into how JB recruits guards. Having a true PG is a plus, IMO, but it seems that JB is fine with guards that have good/great handle and can see the floor. Oh, and something about having quick enough lateral speed to play to top of the zone and prevent opposing guards from penetrating the paint too much.

As much as this fan base clamors for a second true PG, I think we'll be fine with the guards we have, in particular I'm hoping MG will see the floor better next year.

 

[RF2044]

Its not even about a 5th year guy, although that would be 1 answer. Last year we had 1 "real" PG and it burned us. This year we will have 1 "real" PG and we have recruited exactly 0.0 of them for the following year ('15) and don't look to even be in the mix for any in '16 (I'm no scout but what I hear of Battle is that he is a 2, not a 1).

Even if there are no scollies left, how about a talented walk on who would rather be at the end of the rotation at a big time school than be a starter/rotation guy for some mid/low-major? There are a few (semi) local guys who would fit that bill, and given the current depth chart at 1, you figure that guy would play a pretty major role sometime during his Orange career.

Franklin Howard is in the class of 2015, and projects as a PG.

Shark, the real issue is that we've had two early entrant PGs two years in a row that has led to a compromised depth situation at PG. It has nothing to do with a poor recruiting strategy or the attribution that JB and staff have lapsed in terms of who they're pursing.

MCW left a year earlier than the staff expected. Reason being that he blew up and we went to the final four. The staff believed prior to the NCAA tournament that there was a solid chance he would return. Think of how that would have changed this year, with Ennis either backing him up or starting alongside him. Either way, plenty of guard depth / versatility.

The staff didn't expect Ennis to go pro after one season this year, either. Ennis and Joseph was the game plan for next year. Again, this would be a good situation, depth wise. Ennis just had a great year and jumped earlier than expected--but it isn't like the staff dropped the ball.

Also, please keep in mind that they went after a graduate transfer last season [Barron] who would have added backcourt depth / shooting. He just opted to go to Tennessee instead of here. But again, the staff was proactive about addressing the lack of depth, it just didn't work out.

Ultimately, no one will dispute that having only one true lead guard on the roster is ideal. It isn't. Far from it. But it isn't by design. The staff has attempted to build depth--the players have just been good enough to go pro earlier than reasonably expected. And going out and recruiting inferior players just to bolster depth isn't going to solve any problems.

Looking forward to the day when this is no longer an issue.

 

[rrlbees]

Howard will be a PG that can also play the 2G spot. Think MCW type.

 

[orangehomer]

Hey now. This is my first post here, but I've been a lurker for a while. This is a quality board with (mostly) intelligent Cuse discussion so I wanted to see what the crowd here has to say about a glaring roster weakness that seems to be getting 0.0 attention, namely the lack of PG depth.

I understand the staff probably didn't see Ennis as a one & done but now that its happened why is seemingly nothing being done about it? (In actuality something shoulda been done before as the lack of depth behind TE PhD really hurt the team in the long run last year).

I love that Kaleb is highly regarded and hope he does great but injuries/foul plagued games happen and silent g is the only real current option behind him, and probably not the greatest long term answer should anything really bad happen. Not sure if Buss has the handle to run the 1. Not sure if we want to see Trev try it again either. For '15 we have 2 new 2's coming in, but nothing I've been able to read about either shows me that PG could be covered. Malachi is a gunner and I haven't heard that Howard can handle the rock well enough to run the show.

Even with the full class for '15, JB & Co are still on the recruiting trail (Bryant & Jones) but not searching for a quality PG or even someone who can be a 4-year system guy. Ponderous. (side note: in order to get one of those two, someone will have to go either via transfer or early jump. What if that someone turns out to be Kaleb J?)

you strike me as a guy that has more experience as a fan of pro sports. ie, "we have a hole in the roster go sign someone". college is a bit different. you can only recruit kids and hope they show up, and if they do, no one knows for how long. with scholly limits it is even harder to develop an ideal roster. with football you can do more, but that is 85 schollys versus 12. in pro sports, you need a backup PG, you sign the best one. college is different.

 

[weepeel]

How did having one point guard last year burn us? Ennis was healthy, so the lack of a pure backup point made little difference. If Kaleb were to be injured this year, it will have a significant impact no question. But why would a player want to come here as a 5th year player and sit? Ideally, you want a frosh to come into backup a player who is graduating or likely to go pro soon. Which is what even Ennis thought was going to be the case in the coming year. Sometimes the timing just doesn't work out.

Ennis got no rest whatsoever he was tired beyond belief and he missed shots because he didn't have his legs under him...a backup would have helped get Ennis the rest he needed

 

[Col. Bleep]

The staff has attempted to build depth--the players have just been good enough to go pro earlier than reasonably expected. And going out and recruiting inferior players just to bolster depth isn't going to solve any problems.

That's it in a nutshell.

These days it seems very difficult to recruit backup PG's.
The great ones want to play right away and they're generally good enough to do so.
And there is no sense recruiting a 2nd rate player for the most important position on the court.

We've been lucky to have guys develop quickly.
The flip side of that coin is that we've been unlucky to have them go pro sooner than expected.

What happens if Kaleb Joseph is the next one in that mold at Point Guard U?
We may find out.

 

[Dave85]

Hey now. This is my first post here, but I've been a lurker for a while. This is a quality board with (mostly) intelligent Cuse discussion so I wanted to see what the crowd here has to say about a glaring roster weakness that seems to be getting 0.0 attention, namely the lack of PG depth.

I understand the staff probably didn't see Ennis as a one & done but now that its happened why is seemingly nothing being done about it? (In actuality something shoulda been done before as the lack of depth behind TE PhD really hurt the team in the long run last year).

I love that Kaleb is highly regarded and hope he does great but injuries/foul plagued games happen and silent g is the only real current option behind him, and probably not the greatest long term answer should anything really bad happen. Not sure if Buss has the handle to run the 1. Not sure if we want to see Trev try it again either. For '15 we have 2 new 2's coming in, but nothing I've been able to read about either shows me that PG could be covered. Malachi is a gunner and I haven't heard that Howard can handle the rock well enough to run the show.

Even with the full class for '15, JB & Co are still on the recruiting trail (Bryant & Jones) but not searching for a quality PG or even someone who can be a 4-year system guy. Ponderous. (side note: in order to get one of those two, someone will have to go either via transfer or early jump. What if that someone turns out to be Kaleb J?)

I think since MCW the coaching staff is looking for shooting guards who can be good ball handlers. In other words, they are recruiting taller shooting guards (SGs) instead of point guards (PGs) because they want taller players at the top of the zone for defense. I am mixed about the idea.

The defense has been great the last few years but I would like to see the coaching staff develop some player independent motion plays on offense. Although everyone seems to want to play one-on-one isolation offense I think we should be playing a little team offense.

Overall, nice to see someone posting comments and not just responding to other people's posts with trite remarks.

 

[Dave85]

How did having one point guard last year burn us? Ennis was healthy, so the lack of a pure backup point made little difference. If Kaleb were to be injured this year, it will have a significant impact no question. But why would a player want to come here as a 5th year player and sit? Ideally, you want a frosh to come into backup a player who is graduating or likely to go pro soon. Which is what even Ennis thought was going to be the case in the coming year. Sometimes the timing just doesn't work out.

Is it just me or Ennis on a fast break was like watching paint dry. Waiters would have done three laps on the court and scored two dunks in the same amount of time. MCW would have turned over the ball, chased the guy down, then steal the ball back, fly back up the court and make an amazing assist in the same amount of time!

 

[RF2044]

I think since MCW the coaching staff is looking for shooting guards who can be good ball handlers. In other words, they are recruiting taller shooting guards (SGs) instead of point guards (PGs) because they want taller players at the top of the zone for defense. I am mixed about the idea.

The defense has been great the last few years but I would like to see the coaching staff develop some player independent motion plays on offense. Although everyone seems to want to play one-on-one isolation offense I think we should be playing a little team offense.

Overall, nice to see someone posting comments and not just responding to other people's posts with trite remarks.

That seems like a generalized observation. Yes, one of the goals is to recruit taller players for perimeter zone purposes, but Ennis and Joseph don't exactly fit the mold of what you're describing.

I think ideally, you'd like to have an MCW sized athlete [or Franklin Howard] up top, but at the end of the day that is more of a nice to have than a need to have, and the staff recruits the best players they can land.

 

[Shark58]

Franklin Howard is in the class of 2015, and projects as a PG.

Howard will be a PG that can also play the 2G spot. Think MCW type.

From what I've read its the opposite. Howard is a SG who also has some ball handling skills so he could perhaps cover the 1 a bit, especially given the roster depth at 2.

you strike me as a guy that has more experience as a fan of pro sports. ie, "we have a hole in the roster go sign someone". college is a bit different. you can only recruit kids and hope they show up, and if they do, no one knows for how long. with scholly limits it is even harder to develop an ideal roster. with football you can do more, but that is 85 schollys versus 12. in pro sports, you need a backup PG, you sign the best one. college is different.

Quite the opposite actually. Having grown up in Cuse, I started going to games at Manley as was there the night that bastid Thompson closed the joint. Its one of the reasons that, while attending a different university in DC, I would bartend at Georgetown bars wearing a "Your Mama's a Hoya" t-shirt. I understand the differences between roster building for college and the pros (roster spots vs salary caps, the need in college to start building a "perfect" roster years in advance with the inherent unvertainly of both existing players and recruits, etc) which is why I find it ponderous that the current hoops staff is apparently ignoring the need for another pure 1 type.

 

[RF2044]

From what I've read its the opposite. Howard is a SG who also has some ball handling skills so he could perhaps cover the 1 a bit, especially given the roster depth at 2..

Definitely not trying to be argumentative, but everything I've read about Howard suggests the opposite of what you're claiming--including quotes from the kid himself and his coaches, who've indicated that SU is recruiting him as a PG, that the kid is focused on developing his skill set as a lead guard moving forward, etc.

 

[Shark58]

Definitely not trying to be argumentative, but everything I've read about Howard suggests the opposite of what you're claiming--including quotes from the kid himself and his coaches, who've indicated that SU is recruiting him as a PG, that the kid is focused on developing his skill set as a lead guard moving forward, etc.

also not trying to be argumentative, but the following scouting report (from Yahoo) is the most PG friendly one I've seen.

"Howard is a tall and lengthy shooting guard with good range and a feel for scoring the ball from deep and the mid range. A good ball handler and decision maker, he did miss his junior season due to a knee injury. Because of his ability to handle and pass, Howard is hoping to transition to playing as more of a point guard."

I sincerely hope he can transition to the 1

 

[Garbs]

Most years we do not have 2 true PGs on the roster. Same as it ever was.

 

[tee1222]

also not trying to be argumentative, but the following scouting report (from Yahoo) is the most PG friendly one I've seen.

"Howard is a tall and lengthy shooting guard with good range and a feel for scoring the ball from deep and the mid range. A good ball handler and decision maker, he did miss his junior season due to a knee injury. Because of his ability to handle and pass, Howard is hoping to transition to playing as more of a point guard."

I sincerely hope he can transition to the 1

I wouldn't trust much in that scouting report. Seen him first hand and full games. Plays the point most of the time. Brings up the ball any time it's inbounded to him and sets up the offense.

 

[thebigeast44]

We recruited Howard as a point guard.