Yeah Im a glutton for oline play review

[Millhouse]

His role as a relief pitcher was vastly different. Teams didn't scout for him. He came in and followed a basic script. He didn't have to extend plays. At Syracuse that's a requisite for QB1 (or any good QB for that matter).

most of your thirty years of watching, the offense has been designed around a mobile qb. this one isn't. there's nothing about orange helmets that requires guys to run around. this offense isn't about extending plays, it's about getting the ball out to guys in space who can score

 

[Millhouse]

I'm actually with Franco on this one. I feel like you usually can tell pretty early what kind of QB you have, at least if you've watched football for a long time. It's not unusual for a younger QB to be more comfortable throwing outside the hashmarks and struggling to attack the middle of the field. But Tommy's struggles with the read option, the game/time situations, making the reads and delivering the ball accurately, moving in the pocket effectively ... I don't know. That's a lot to work on. Not at all writing the kid off but outside of the occasional beautiful-looking throw into tight windows, there's not a whole lot to grab onto. The FSU game was nice but they were a complete dumpster fire. UNC wasn't much better and were basically dead man walking walking when we played them. WMU was a nice game but there's just not a lot to hold onto, IMO.

you could dismiss all the greats first flashes like this, this doesn't count, that doesn't count, cmon

 

[Millhouse]

Thanks for sharing that. I needed to be reminded. It's just scary how bad the last several games have been. I really worry that he's too shell shocked to recover. Wouldn't be the first time it happened.

that i agree with. getting your brain beat in behind this line creates a lot of bad habits

 

[Millhouse]

I think they all just had better senior years when it came to passing the ball. Not necessarily special. Granted, RJ had Morant catching and Reyes running. Nassib had Sales and Lemon, a good running game and the up tempo suited him. Nunes just didn’t screw up as much, but that team had the worst passing D in the country.

As for McNabb, he just seemed like a more efficient passer that year. Maybe I’m too focused on the first two games of the year and not the last one when Bob Stoops Florida D was too much to handle. Or the NC State game where we decided we weren’t going to run the ball.

Lots of games this year remind me of the Orange Bowl. The crowd that thinks a mobile qb can offset a poor line, think about that game. That line wasn't poor but they looked poor against a great Florida line. McNabb was hopeless that night.

This line is so bad that most D lines look like Florida's against us.

 

[dollarbill44]

he did that and threw a bunch of INTs, he’s also thrown them out of bounds - but gets killed for that too

A "bunch"? He's thrown 5 in 7 games. That's not bad. And he got knocked for the way he threw out of bounds, as in, intentional groundings (2× early in NCSU) or 4th downs or when there is a receiver open. There is a right way to throw it away and a right time.

 

[dollarbill44]

I'm actually with Franco on this one. I feel like you usually can tell pretty early what kind of QB you have, at least if you've watched football for a long time. It's not unusual for a younger QB to be more comfortable throwing outside the hashmarks and struggling to attack the middle of the field. But Tommy's struggles with the read option, the game/time situations, making the reads and delivering the ball accurately, moving in the pocket effectively ... I don't know. That's a lot to work on. Not at all writing the kid off but outside of the occasional beautiful-looking throw into tight windows, there's not a whole lot to grab onto. The FSU game was nice but they were a complete dumpster fire. UNC wasn't much better and were basically dead man walking walking when we played them. WMU was a nice game but there's just not a lot to hold onto, IMO.

ED didn't look good at all against UNC, so that argument doesn't hold up. Also, TD must have fooled a lot of coaches who are very experienced at watching people play football to have been invited to the elite 11 and have gotten so much interest from D1 programs. I don't know what his problem has been this season, but I'm pretty sure it's not something that can't be corrected. I do believe that things would be much easier for him if he would run more, which would pull a db off of coverage every now and then.

 

[FrancoPizza]

most of your thirty years of watching, the offense has been designed around a mobile qb. this one isn't. there's nothing about orange helmets that requires guys to run around. this offense isn't about extending plays, it's about getting the ball out to guys in space who can score

Well Tommy has not been getting the ball out either. And yes, extending plays is a real thing that any offense needs to do from time to time. We don't need McNabb dancing around on one shoe -- but just being able to slide around in the pocket to buy an extra second or two is something TD cannot do. And whenever he does leave the pocket something bad almost always happens. You can't blame those miscues on the line. He's bizarro dungey. Great arm, great mechanics. Zero threat to run. Gets tripped easily. Rolls into pressure. Tucker lets him play even though he may have brain damage.

 

[Newhouser]

TD's pick 6 in the Spring Game was telling. I was a huge fan and thought the O would improve based on his throwing alone. He and it have not developed. Don't know if it's height, speed of the game, etc, he seems to lack vision and feel which amazes me.

 

[721Comstock]

ED didn't look good at all against UNC, so that argument doesn't hold up. Also, TD must have fooled a lot of coaches who are very experienced at watching people play football to have been invited to the elite 11 and have gotten so much interest from D1 programs. I don't know what his problem has been this season, but I'm pretty sure it's not something that can't be corrected. I do believe that things would be much easier for him if he would run more, which would pull a db off of coverage every now and then.

Agreed - the RPO without ANY threat of the QB run is pretty much just a delayed handoff, and all of our opponents know it, and crash on the RB every. damn. time.

The coupla times he ran the keeper against HC, they had no clue he was gonna do that (no tape! - see? ), and it was wildly effective.

He's literally the anti-Dungey -
ED was far too prone to call his own #, regardless of whether it was the best call in the moment.
Tommy pretty much NEVER calls his own #, even times when the D is giving him an ez 10+ yards if he were to do so.

 

[sufandu]

Why not? Being hit too much or not knowing if you’re protected for more than your first read can lead to indecision or can lead to panicky bad throws.

If everything is sped up, stands to reason you might miss open guys because you’re not able to process the info quickly enough.

That doesn't explain not throwing to the first read when it's open. It explains not going through progressions when the first read is covered.

Like someone else said earlier, he needs to dink and donk a team to death until they start to creep up then hit them with something over their head to make them pay.

 

[sufandu]

he did that and threw a bunch of INTs, he’s also thrown them out of bounds - but gets killed for that too

If he threw a bunch of INT's, it wasn't open.

 

[All4SU]

Give the man some lifts then for chris sakes. Is there an NCAA restriction on heel thickness?

Only when you’re playing against Tennessee. Then they’ll call that $#!+ all day long.

 

[billsin01]

ED didn't look good at all against UNC, so that argument doesn't hold up. Also, TD must have fooled a lot of coaches who are very experienced at watching people play football to have been invited to the elite 11 and have gotten so much interest from D1 programs. I don't know what his problem has been this season, but I'm pretty sure it's not something that can't be corrected. I do believe that things would be much easier for him if he would run more, which would pull a db off of coverage every now and then.

I would agree it's unfair of me to say it 'cant' be corrected but I just feel like you don't see that kind of improvement as often. No matter what highlights I see, I'm not blown away by what he does. Love the arm strength and occasional beautiful throw but feel there are so many other subtler areas where he really struggles. I'm rooting for him because A) seems like a good kid with some talent and B) not sure we have even one other option. So I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

 

[TheCusian]

A "bunch"? He's thrown 5 in 7 games. That's not bad. And he got knocked for the way he threw out of bounds, as in, intentional groundings (2× early in NCSU) or 4th downs or when there is a receiver open. There is a right way to throw it away and a right time.

All the same diagnosis, no? It’s hard to make a case that he’s been making good decisions - what we are talking about is why? If the pass protection is bad enough - all of those symptoms *could be* likely. As some have suggested it might be something more core to his play regardless of protection.

 

[TheCusian]

If he threw a bunch of INT's, it wasn't open.

right. So he’s got a clock in his head, he’s making reads quicker, his first read is covered - he can a) throw it to a guy who isn’t open and try to fit it in and maybe throw an incompletion or and INT b) wait until someone comes open and get sacked or make a late throw c) wait and then throw it out of bounds d) run

early he was getting lots of grief for the INT (Clemson specifically) and then intentional grounding calls... but they are all symptoms of having no time

 

[sufandu]

right. So he’s got a clock in his head, he’s making reads quicker, his first read is covered - he can a) throw it to a guy who isn’t open and try to fit it in and maybe throw an incompletion or and INT b) wait until someone comes open and get sacked or make a late throw c) wait and then throw it out of bounds d) run

early he was getting lots of grief for the INT (Clemson specifically) and then intentional grounding calls... but they are all symptoms of having no time

Regarding A, there is video in this thread where guys were open and he did not throw the ball. That has nothing to do with a clock in his head. The clock should have been telling him to get rid of it at the first opportunity.

 

[upperdeck]

throwing it away as much as we like to think. is not that easy. you still have to be set on balance and make a throw. it needs to go someplace safe, near someone, and in some cases cross the LOS..

if you are making read 1, start to read 2, then the play breaks down, you may not be a position to just heave ho as much as people think..

the throws he made to start the year on the sidelines were bad decision throws. some of the sacks were just a result of time, some others though based on down and distance need to decided ahead of time where to go and not eat those. All sacks are not created equal.

 

[TheCusian]

Regarding A, there is video in this thread where guys were open and he did not throw the ball. That has nothing to do with a clock in his head. The clock should have been telling him to get rid of it at the first opportunity.

Yes, he should have hit the open receiver no matter what. No, I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest the guy has been hit enough to not be as sharp as a guy with proper pass protection.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm rewatching the highlight tape again - and what's striking is all of those plays he wasn't asked to do much. Drop back and fire. He looks great when the play goes according to script, if the pocket is nice and clean, etc. That works with an SEC offensive line and playmakers but not here.

It blows my mind that this narrative has become a thing for some.

"Tommy can only play well at QB if we execute our plays properly."

Well, how's that an issue with DeVito?

 

[upperdeck]

the bigger issue is that so often its not just one guy coming free, often it was 2-3 on the same play, so even just buying so more time wasnt an option.. We would push the DEs deep but the center caved in, When a DE gets pressure he rolls into more pressure..

Look at the Pitt game.. play after play we got pressure but there always was a spot for the QB to roll away and buy some time.

Its even worse for us on D because we blitz and so seldom beat the block so the Qb buys time and has less coverage to deal with..
teams send 4 and beat 7 so we are running 3 on 7 to get open and still have 2-3 guys chasing the QB..

so the question now is what does the new tackle do. was he a better run guy and a bit less on pass blocking or better high end and less consistent? or is he a better pass blocker and worse run? he was not the starter for a reason. the way our offense is, if he was way better at one or the other its still a plus since we dont do either well.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

the bigger issue is that so often its not just one guy coming free, often it was 2-3 on the same play, so even just buying so more time wasnt an option.. We would push the DEs deep but the center caved in, When a DE gets pressure he rolls into more pressure..

Look at the Pitt game.. play after play we got pressure but there always was a spot for the QB to roll away and buy some time.

Its even worse for us on D because we blitz and so seldom beat the block so the Qb buys time and has less coverage to deal with..
teams send 4 and beat 7 so we are running 3 on 7 to get open and still have 2-3 guys chasing the QB..

so the question now is what does the new tackle do. was he a better run guy and a bit less on pass blocking or better high end and less consistent? or is he a better pass blocker and worse run? he was not the starter for a reason. the way our offense is, if he was way better at one or the other its still a plus since we dont do either well.

Was Bergeron an early enrollee? If so and he demonstrates the proper dedication to S&c and gets us back to playing fast, that could be a big boost.

 

[shu 49]

Agreed - the RPO without ANY threat of the QB run is pretty much just a delayed handoff, and all of our opponents know it, and crash on the RB every. damn. time.

The coupla times he ran the keeper against HC, they had no clue he was gonna do that (no tape! - see? ), and it was wildly effective.

He's literally the anti-Dungey -
ED was far too prone to call his own #, regardless of whether it was the best call in the moment.
Tommy pretty much NEVER calls his own #, even times when the D is giving him an ez 10+ yards if he were to do so.

I think why RPO works so well is all three options have to be covered. The give, the qb keep, and the pass to receiver. We don’t do last 2 anymore so no wonder we can’t run.

 

[upperdeck]

we cant even run a sneak thats all we need to understand about the oline issues