2020-21 MLB Off-Season thread

[NineOneSeven]

New thread for all things 2021 MLB.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Is the plan for 162 games?

 

[Alsacs]

Is the plan for 162 games?

Owners are cheap and don’t want to start the season on time.
It’s why FA hasn’t moved.
Teams don’t want to spend.
They want the season delayed till they can allow fans in and they are thinking May.

The MLBPA doesn’t want to do this and expect to start on season.
I don’t expect 162.

 

[sutomcat]

Owners are cheap and don’t want to start the season on time.
It’s why FA hasn’t moved.
Teams don’t want to spend.
They want the season delayed till they can allow fans in and they are thinking May.

The MLBPA doesn’t want to do this and expect to start on season.
I don’t expect 162.

Insiders think 162 is likely. Spring training might be somewhat abridged but I am hearing a full season is almost certainly happening.

More interesting questions regard roster size and whether there will be a DH in the National League.

Not sure sure the reason few free agents have been signed is because the owners are cheap. They lost a ton of money last year. It is clear there will be limited, at best, in house attendance this season. It should be clear to everyone that all teams are going to lose millions again this year.

The agents and the players think they should get paid as though these huge cuts in revenue and significant new expenses related to COVID (testing, changes to clubhouse layouts, transporting players, etc.) do not exist.

They do. Players are not going to get the same money they have been getting because it is not there.

 

[Alsacs]

Insiders think 162 is likely. Spring training might be somewhat abridged but I am hearing a full season is almost certainly happening.

More interesting questions regard roster size and whether there will be a DH in the National League.

Not sure sure the reason few free agents have been signed is because the owners are cheap. They lost a ton of money last year. It is clear there will be limited, at best, in house attendance this season. It should be clear to everyone that all teams are going to lose millions again this year.

The agents and the players think they should get paid as though these huge cuts in revenue and significant new expenses related to COVID (testing, changes to clubhouse layouts, transporting players, etc.) do not exist.

They do. Players are not going to get the same money they have been getting because it is not there.

Teams can cook their books to make any season appear they are losing money.
MLB revenues don’t include RSNs in their revenues.
Teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Orioles, Cubs own their RSNs which don’t factor in revenues. The Dodgers TV deal is for billions.

The sport didn’t generate as much revenue because of the lack of attendance but the sport is fine economically.

They saved money by delaying the season as much as they could since they only paid a prorated 60 game season last year.

Baseball franchises are allowing FA to go slowly to keep salaries down. They are ripe for a collusion lawsuit. Anytime it’s threatened spendings occur.

Baseball is going to die a slow death as older people pass away. The youth of the nation aren’t as passionate about it and the sport has the worst commissioner of any of the big 4 and with Roger Goodell around that is crazy.

There is no reason it’s January and all the top FAs are still on the board.

 

[sutomcat]

Teams can cook their books to make any season appear they are losing money.
MLB revenues don’t include RSNs in their revenues.
Teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Orioles, Cubs own their RSNs which don’t factor in revenues. The Dodgers TV deal is for billions.

The sport didn’t generate as much revenue because of the lack of attendance but the sport is fine economically.

They saved money by delaying the season as much as they could since they only paid a prorated 60 game season last year.

Baseball franchises are allowing FA to go slowly to keep salaries down. They are ripe for a collusion lawsuit. Anytime it’s threatened spendings occur.

Baseball is going to die a slow death as older people pass away. The youth of the nation aren’t as passionate about it and the sport has the worst commissioner of any of the big 4 and with Roger Goodell around that is crazy.

There is no reason it’s January and all the top FAs are still on the board.

Well, the Mets must definitely do NOT own their RSN. The Wilpons and other investors do.

Some big market teams make significant revenue from their RSN contracts. Which were of course reduced for the reduced season.

Revenue from the gate (ticket sales, parking, concessions) accounts for about 40% of all MLB revenue. That was all gone last year and most, maybe all will be missing again this season.

I know you are smart enough to realize every MLB team lost 10s of millions of dollars last season. You surely understand they are going to lose similar amounts this season. Probably significantly more because they are planning to play a full season.

I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that teams have the same revenue coming in now than they did pre-COVID. You have made no coherent points here. Do you seriously think the owners should continue take no action to reduce costs given the massive reductions in revenue?

 

[donniesyracuse]

Well, the Mets must definitely do NOT own their RSN. The Wilpons and other investors do.

Some big market teams make significant revenue from their RSN contracts. Which were of course reduced for the reduced season.

Revenue from the gate (ticket sales, parking, concessions) accounts for about 40% of all MLB revenue. That was all gone last year and most, maybe all will be missing again this season.

I know you are smart enough to realize every MLB team lost 10s of millions of dollars last season. You surely understand they are going to lose similar amounts this season. Probably significantly more because they are planning to play a full season.

I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that teams have the same revenue coming in now than they did pre-COVID. You have made no coherent points here. Do you seriously think the owners should continue take no action to reduce costs given the massive reductions in revenue?

The values of their franchises continue to grow.

 

[sutomcat]

The values of their franchises continue to grow.

That is true. Long term, the outlook for the baseball owners is probably good.

But revenue is dramatically down. Costs need to be reduced to some degree. The owners aren’t going to ignore the balance sheet and pretend nothing has changed. There are ramifications trying to play sports during a major pandemic.

Their biggest cost is player salaries. It is one area they have some ability to control. It is foolish to assume the pandemic will have no impact on salaries for free agents. These are the only salaries the owners have some control over.

 

[upperdeck]

I would also be dumb for owners to just willy nilly assume everything goes back to normal by May or summer or even fall.

 

[MSOrange]

Teams can cook their books to make any season appear they are losing money.
MLB revenues don’t include RSNs in their revenues.
Teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Orioles, Cubs own their RSNs which don’t factor in revenues. The Dodgers TV deal is for billions.

The sport didn’t generate as much revenue because of the lack of attendance but the sport is fine economically.

They saved money by delaying the season as much as they could since they only paid a prorated 60 game season last year.

Baseball franchises are allowing FA to go slowly to keep salaries down. They are ripe for a collusion lawsuit. Anytime it’s threatened spendings occur.

Baseball is going to die a slow death as older people pass away. The youth of the nation aren’t as passionate about it and the sport has the worst commissioner of any of the big 4 and with Roger Goodell around that is crazy.

There is no reason it’s January and all the top FAs are still on the board.

You are right about attracting youth. It doesn't have to this same exact idea, but MLB would be well served to try things similar to that NFL Nickelodeon broadcast.

 

[sutomcat]

I would also be dumb for owners to just willy nilly assume everything goes back to normal by May or summer or even fall.

When venues start opening up to full capacity again, it is going to be very interesting to see how many people go to games. How will people react when restaurants and movie theaters re-open? Will it take months to return to normal? Years? Will some things never be the same?

Pretty sure where I work, a significant percentage of our employees are going to work from home for the rest of their careers. They will come in once in a while but things have changed forever. Management is already making plans to convert office space to factory space...

 

[upperdeck]

yup.. and working from home sucks.. in a few yrs all these companies will exist full of people who have never met.

 

[OrangeDW]

You are right about attracting youth. It doesn't have to this same exact idea, but MLB would be well served to try things similar to that NFL Nickelodeon broadcast.

My feeling based on people my age and younger: Seems like baseball fans are/were baseball players for the most part.

Football and basketball, everybody follows.

I think it has a ton to do with the constant need for stimulation from the cell phones. People don’t have the attention span for baseball, unless they grew up watching it and never stopped or played it and know what a great game it is.

That makes me think the key is finding a way to get more kids playing baseball...and I have no clue how to do that.

 

[Bayside44]

I go to a lot of baseball games. As a kid in the 70s-80s (really) going to Shea and Yankee Stadium seemed full of Oscar Madison types.

In this current era of my life I go to a lot of Nats games. And the place is full of younger people, lots more women, diverse (sorta) and it's more like a tailgate than anything else.

 

[upperdeck]

NHL says they will take a loss in the billions.. mlb cant be that much off and they have much higher expenses.. I dont care who the owners are they dont just throw their own money at these things to cover hundreds of millions in losses.. And no matter how much they might get back on the other end for most of them its a long ways off..

 

[Alsacs]

I would also be dumb for owners to just willy nilly assume everything goes back to normal by May or summer or even fall.

Yeah why try to actually win.
Nobody is saying to spend 300 million dollars but their a lot of guys worth signing.

The owners don’t spend on the middle class players to keep salaries down.

Guys like Trevor Bauer, JT Realmuto, George Springer are all 100 million dollar contract guys no matter the short term economics.
DJ LeMahieu, Marcel Ozuna, Masahiro Tanaka, Didi Gregorius are worth multi year deals.

Baseball owners don’t care to win.
So they won’t spend any money outside of the Padres and Mets right now.

The money will be there if teams actually want to win.
Fans who side with owners over players are just playing into the owners hand.
Baseball owners would have cancelled the season if they lost money.
The added postseason round brought in a lot of TV money that the owners didn’t share with players.
It’s obvious revenues were down but for the market to be this ice cold is garbage.

 

[MSOrange]

One FA signing - Liam Hendriks to the White Sox

Sources: Hendriks agrees to deal with White Sox

Closer Liam Hendriks has agreed to a multiyear deal with the White Sox that guarantees him $54 million, sources said.

www.espn.com

 

[sutomcat]

Here is an article from the Athletic. It is about how expansion is not coming soon for baseball, even though finances are really bad for the owners.

MLB expansion is on hold, despite some financial incentives

Another round of expansion is overdue. But MLB's reluctance to move forward is one more example of how the pandemic is altering business.

theathletic.com

One paragraph in particular is of interest in this discussion:

More than a quarter-century later, MLB is dealing with an even greater economic challenge, operating losses in 2020 between $2.5 billion and $3 billion, according to commissioner Rob Manfred, after playing a shortened 60-game regular season without fans. The COVID-19 pandemic also is creating an uncertain outlook for ’21 as the virus continues to rage and the rollout of a vaccine proceeds slowly, again raising questions about when stadiums will open to full capacity.

I saw an article today that said MLB expects crowds in the stands for this year during the regular season (and in Florida for spring training), assuming local laws allow it. That would be nice.

Maybe they can start the season at 10% capacity or so and slowing expand that as more of the country gets vaccinated.

 

[Alsacs]

Every single MLB team collected postseason national television and in-season local television revenue while paying 37% of salaries in the pandemic-shortened schedule.

MLB Playoffs Begin Anew With More Teams, Revenue and Safety Bubbles

The playoffs start with eight best-of-three Wild Card Series among 16 games and then head into Texas and California bubbles for three weeks.

www.sportico.com

MLB received 1.7 billion for the expanded 2020 playoffs.
The players pool for the postseason money was 81 million.

Teams didn’t get killed economically.
They didn’t profit as much as usual.
If they cooked their books they could show losses.

Postseason revenue is where MLB gets the bulk of its national TV money.
Plus they only paid players 37% of their 2020 contracts.

 

[NateW]

All I know is that I better be watching games in April.

I checked out on the money discussions going into last season and I’m going to this year.

Just get rid of automatic extra innings runners and go back to the usual post season schedule - with the exception of making the divisional series 7 games, instead of 5. Bam, there’s your extra playoff tv money.

Now play ball.

 

[sutomcat]

Every single MLB team collected postseason national television and in-season local television revenue while paying 37% of salaries in the pandemic-shortened schedule.

MLB Playoffs Begin Anew With More Teams, Revenue and Safety Bubbles

The playoffs start with eight best-of-three Wild Card Series among 16 games and then head into Texas and California bubbles for three weeks.

www.sportico.com

MLB received 1.7 billion for the expanded 2020 playoffs.
The players pool for the postseason money was 81 million.

Teams didn’t get killed economically.
They didn’t profit as much as usual.
If they cooked their books they could show losses.

Postseason revenue is where MLB gets the bulk of its national TV money.
Plus they only paid players 37% of their 2020 contracts.

No, you misread the article Alsacs.

Here is a snippet for you to read so you better understand things...

Despite a lot of fits and starts, MLB has finally arrived at this destination: the big revenue pot at the end of the rainbow of a season played without fans and shortened from 162 games in the time of the coronavirus. MLB receives most of its $1.7 billion in national television revenue during the postseason; expanding the playoffs from the usual 43 games to 65 games will result in an increase of about $100 million, or about $4.5 million a game. ESPN/ABC has signed on to air all the games in seven of the eight Wild Card Series, with TBS broadcasting the other.

An extra $100 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the massive losses the teams suffered.

I know of no reputable source that thinks MLB teams were profitable in 2020. If you can provide one, I would love to see it. Just making things up doesn't work for me.

 

[Alsacs]

No, you misread the article Alsacs.

Here is a snippet for you to read so you better understand things...

Despite a lot of fits and starts, MLB has finally arrived at this destination: the big revenue pot at the end of the rainbow of a season played without fans and shortened from 162 games in the time of the coronavirus. MLB receives most of its $1.7 billion in national television revenue during the postseason; expanding the playoffs from the usual 43 games to 65 games will result in an increase of about $100 million, or about $4.5 million a game. ESPN/ABC has signed on to air all the games in seven of the eight Wild Card Series, with TBS broadcasting the other.

An extra $100 million is a drop in the bucket compared to the massive losses the teams suffered.

I know of no reputable source that thinks MLB teams were profitable in 2020. If you can provide one, I would love to see it. Just making things up doesn't work for me.

They got 1.7 billion or really close think 1.5 billion.
They got revenue.
Here are the payrolls

Complete 2020 MLB Payroll List:

1. New York Yankees($109.4 mil)
2. Los Angeles Dodgers($105.7 mil)
3. Boston Red Sox ($83.7 mil)
4. Houston Astros ($82.5 mil)
5. Philadelphia Phillies($78.1 mil)
6. New York Mets ($76.6 mil)
7. Chicago Cubs ($75.6 mil)
8. San Diego Padres ($71.5 mil)
9. San Francisco Giants($71.4 mil)
10. St. Louis Cardinals($71.1 mil)
11. Washington Nationals($67.4 mil)
12. Los Angeles Angels ($66 mil)
13. Atlanta Braves ($63 mil)
14. Texas Rangers ($62.7 mil)
15. Colorado Rockies ($61.8 mil)
16. Arizona Diamondbacks($60 mil)
17. Cincinnati Reds ($55.6 mil)
18. Minnesota Twins ($55.4 mil)
19. Toronto Blue Jays ($54 mil)
20. Chicago White Sox($52.4 mil)
21. Seattle Mariners ($48.9 mil)
22. Detroit Tigers ($43.3 mil)
23. Milwaukee Brewers($39.6 mil)
24. Cleveland Indians($37.5 mil)
25. Oakland Athletics($36.7 mil)
26. Kansas City Royals($34.8 mil)
27. Miami Marlins ($31.2 mil)
28. Tampa Bay Rays ($28.3 mil)
29. Pittsburgh Pirates($25.1 mil)
30. Baltimore Orioles($23.5 mil)

 

[Alsacs]

The amount of losses is minor when teams like the Yankees/Red Sox own NESN and Yes.
The Dodgers Tv contract even at 37% of games was 85 million for the season.

These top teams with the payrolls that didn’t get covered by the postseason revenue which was 35 million per team didn’t get hammered economically.

 

[sutomcat]

They got 1.7 billion or really close think 1.5 billion.
They got revenue.
Here are the payrolls

Complete 2020 MLB Payroll List:

1. New York Yankees($109.4 mil)
2. Los Angeles Dodgers($105.7 mil)
3. Boston Red Sox ($83.7 mil)
4. Houston Astros ($82.5 mil)
5. Philadelphia Phillies($78.1 mil)
6. New York Mets ($76.6 mil)
7. Chicago Cubs ($75.6 mil)
8. San Diego Padres ($71.5 mil)
9. San Francisco Giants($71.4 mil)
10. St. Louis Cardinals($71.1 mil)
11. Washington Nationals($67.4 mil)
12. Los Angeles Angels ($66 mil)
13. Atlanta Braves ($63 mil)
14. Texas Rangers ($62.7 mil)
15. Colorado Rockies ($61.8 mil)
16. Arizona Diamondbacks($60 mil)
17. Cincinnati Reds ($55.6 mil)
18. Minnesota Twins ($55.4 mil)
19. Toronto Blue Jays ($54 mil)
20. Chicago White Sox($52.4 mil)
21. Seattle Mariners ($48.9 mil)
22. Detroit Tigers ($43.3 mil)
23. Milwaukee Brewers($39.6 mil)
24. Cleveland Indians($37.5 mil)
25. Oakland Athletics($36.7 mil)
26. Kansas City Royals($34.8 mil)
27. Miami Marlins ($31.2 mil)
28. Tampa Bay Rays ($28.3 mil)
29. Pittsburgh Pirates($25.1 mil)
30. Baltimore Orioles($23.5 mil)

No one is disputing that payrolls were reduced. Teams still lost tons of money. No one cleared a profit. You can dispute the 2.5 billion dollar number Manfred came up with. The real number is probably somewhat lower.

If you take 1.7 billion and divide it by 30 (this is not real; the league offices definitely get a piece of the revenue, maybe others as well), you get around 56.7 million per team.

Add in costs for airfare, hotels, meals, ground transportation, support staff, insurance, COVID testing, costs for 'spring' training, etc., etc., etc.

There is no way any MLB team cleared a profit. It is just a question of how many millions of dollars they all lost.

 

[upperdeck]

what do we think the upkeep of a stadium is for a yr.. its probably in the millions as well.