Another Athletic program in flux

[SWC75]

‘There’s just a disconnect’: Maryland basketball, great expectations and the stark reality of a program at a crossroad

Maryland's basketball future depends on more than just its next coach

theathletic.com

"Some programs in that rare air are obvious. Your Dukes, Kentuckys, North Carolinas, and so on.

Others, not so clear. What do we make of Indiana or UCLA or Syracuse or Louisville, so on?"


"This is the trend, overall. Since sending nine teams to both the 2017 and 2018 NCAA Tournaments, the ACC sent seven in 2019, was projected to send five in 2020, sent seven last season. It’s expected to have a potentially woeful 2022 Selection Sunday showing. The Big Ten, meanwhile, produced eight NCAA bids in 2019, was projected for 10 in 2020, sent nine teams to the bracket last season and is in line for eight or so bids this season.

So while the likes of Duke, North Carolina and Virginia might be more natural rivals and allies for Maryland, it’s the Big Ten that’s provided more paths to success."


My own opinion is that when you leave your roots behind, you are likely to suffer for it. it still kills me that there's no (North) Eastern conference and I think all the potential schools (Boston College, Connecticut, Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Temple, Maryland and maybe Cincinnati if we couldn't get Notre Dame), would be better off in it.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Also seeing the end of a big-time coaches era. Need to replace the legends with some real up and comers, and not just continuity hires who hopefully can continue what their mentors built.

 

[Eric15]

Also seeing the end of a big-time coaches era.

Yeah one thing that has always made college basketball great are those larger-than-life coaching personalities. Like even though Rick Pitino is a shady character, the sport is so much better when he's at a big-time program as opposed to Iona.

The best coaches today (guys like Tony Bennett, Jay Wright, Mark Few, Scott Drew, etc.) are brilliant basketball minds, but they're just kind of boring on a personal level.

 

[Dinkyspond]

I follow the Patriot League and don't think Army or Navy would ever consider a "Northeastern" league..They are perfect for the Patriot, competitive and in the hunt to win their tourney at least..The Cadets and Mids would be doormats with all those other schools. But I definitely see what you are proposing hypothetically.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Yeah one thing that has always made college basketball great are those larger-than-life coaching personalities. Like even though Rick Pitino is a shady character, the sport is so much better when he's at a big-time program as opposed to Iona.

The best coaches today (guys like Tony Bennett, Jay Wright, Mark Few, Scott Drew, etc.) are brilliant basketball minds, but they're just kind of boring on a personal level.

That era is gone forever IMO. And the media and society today is a large reason why.

 

[SWC75]

I follow the Patriot League and don't think Army or Navy would ever consider a "Northeastern" league..They are perfect for the Patriot, competitive and in the hunt to win their tourney at least..The Cadets and Mids would be doormats with all those other schools. But I definitely see what you are proposing hypothetically.

They'd do OK in football, the big sport for them. They have had times when they were good in basketball but even if they aren't, you need some bottom feeders.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

‘There’s just a disconnect’: Maryland basketball, great expectations and the stark reality of a program at a crossroad

Maryland's basketball future depends on more than just its next coach

theathletic.com

"Some programs in that rare air are obvious. Your Dukes, Kentuckys, North Carolinas, and so on.

Others, not so clear. What do we make of Indiana or UCLA or Syracuse or Louisville, so on?"


"This is the trend, overall. Since sending nine teams to both the 2017 and 2018 NCAA Tournaments, the ACC sent seven in 2019, was projected to send five in 2020, sent seven last season. It’s expected to have a potentially woeful 2022 Selection Sunday showing. The Big Ten, meanwhile, produced eight NCAA bids in 2019, was projected for 10 in 2020, sent nine teams to the bracket last season and is in line for eight or so bids this season.

So while the likes of Duke, North Carolina and Virginia might be more natural rivals and allies for Maryland, it’s the Big Ten that’s provided more paths to success."


My own opinion is that when you leave your roots behind, you are likely to suffer for it. it still kills me that there's no (North) Eastern conference and I think all the potential schools (Boston College, Connecticut, Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Temple, Maryland and maybe Cincinnati if we couldn't get Notre Dame), would be better off in it.

If an Eastern Conference were created around 1990 it should have been BC, SU, RU, PSU, Pitt, WV, Temple, VA Tech, Miami, and ND. So Big East football plus Penn State and Notre Dame. It isn't a very good BBall conference though and Big East BBall is likely better all those years. The biggest issue here is no way does ND agree. So eventually you see PSU leave for the B1G when they add Nebraska.

Even if ND agreed back in 1990, the Eastern Conference would have gone to 12 eventually by raiding the ACC, and to 14 by raiding the ACC a 2nd time. So in 2004 add FSU/GA Tech, and in 2013 add MD/Clemson.

Then in 2022 UNC, Duke, UVA need to make a decision between a 20 team SEC or an 18 team Eastern Conference. I would think that they prefer the East, so they come along with Cincy. The SEC then grabs NC State and Okie State to also get to 18. The B1G is stuck at 12 (Nebraska and Kansas), as is the P12 and B12 remnants.

Yes, it would have been nice to have a 10 team Northeastern league, but there is no way it could have stayed that way. Best case we have the current ACC plus ND football, plus Penn State/Rutgers/Temple/West Virginia/Maryland/Cincy, and minus Louisville/NC State/Wake.

The ACC could still eventually add Temple/West Virginia/Cincy but PSU/RU/MD are gone forever.

The best bet at getting the Northeast schools together would be for the B1G to go 24+ schools. Then you can have Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers, Boston College, Pitt, Syracuse all in the same conference.

 

[JustPherU]

Maybe we could call it the Big East!
Seems like a great idea, but greed has ruined what’s best for the fans.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yeah one thing that has always made college basketball great are those larger-than-life coaching personalities. Like even though Rick Pitino is a shady character, the sport is so much better when he's at a big-time program as opposed to Iona.

 

[SWC75]

If an Eastern Conference were created around 1990 it should have been BC, SU, RU, PSU, Pitt, WV, Temple, VA Tech, Miami, and ND. So Big East football plus Penn State and Notre Dame. It isn't a very good BBall conference though and Big East BBall is likely better all those years. The biggest issue here is no way does ND agree. So eventually you see PSU leave for the B1G when they add Nebraska.

Even if ND agreed back in 1990, the Eastern Conference would have gone to 12 eventually by raiding the ACC, and to 14 by raiding the ACC a 2nd time. So in 2004 add FSU/GA Tech, and in 2013 add MD/Clemson.

Then in 2022 UNC, Duke, UVA need to make a decision between a 20 team SEC or an 18 team Eastern Conference. I would think that they prefer the East, so they come along with Cincy. The SEC then grabs NC State and Okie State to also get to 18. The B1G is stuck at 12 (Nebraska and Kansas), as is the P12 and B12 remnants.

Yes, it would have been nice to have a 10 team Northeastern league, but there is no way it could have stayed that way. Best case we have the current ACC plus ND football, plus Penn State/Rutgers/Temple/West Virginia/Maryland/Cincy, and minus Louisville/NC State/Wake.

The ACC could still eventually add Temple/West Virginia/Cincy but PSU/RU/MD are gone forever.

The best bet at getting the Northeast schools together would be for the B1G to go 24+ schools. Then you can have Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers, Boston College, Pitt, Syracuse all in the same conference.

I'd be happy if the ACC would just go North-South.

 

[Geode]

Yeah one thing that has always made college basketball great are those larger-than-life coaching personalities. Like even though Rick Pitino is a shady character, the sport is so much better when he's at a big-time program as opposed to Iona.

The best coaches today (guys like Tony Bennett, Jay Wright, Mark Few, Scott Drew, etc.) are brilliant basketball minds, but they're just kind of boring on a personal level.

In our defense, we were completely spoiled with 'personality' growing up watching the likes of:
Rollie
Louie
J Thompson II
PJ Carlesimo
JAB
Gary Williams
Raftery
Big East Rat Pack

The second and third generations weren't so bad either with the likes of
Pitino
A young Leonard Hamilton
Ben Howland
Steve Lappas
Beilein
Huggins
Greenberg
etc.

The BE did not lack in personality

 

[Day2]

‘There’s just a disconnect’: Maryland basketball, great expectations and the stark reality of a program at a crossroad

Maryland's basketball future depends on more than just its next coach

theathletic.com

"Some programs in that rare air are obvious. Your Dukes, Kentuckys, North Carolinas, and so on.

Others, not so clear. What do we make of Indiana or UCLA or Syracuse or Louisville, so on?"


"This is the trend, overall. Since sending nine teams to both the 2017 and 2018 NCAA Tournaments, the ACC sent seven in 2019, was projected to send five in 2020, sent seven last season. It’s expected to have a potentially woeful 2022 Selection Sunday showing. The Big Ten, meanwhile, produced eight NCAA bids in 2019, was projected for 10 in 2020, sent nine teams to the bracket last season and is in line for eight or so bids this season.

So while the likes of Duke, North Carolina and Virginia might be more natural rivals and allies for Maryland, it’s the Big Ten that’s provided more paths to success."


My own opinion is that when you leave your roots behind, you are likely to suffer for it. it still kills me that there's no (North) Eastern conference and I think all the potential schools (Boston College, Connecticut, Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Temple, Maryland and maybe Cincinnati if we couldn't get Notre Dame), would be better off in it.

There you have it. For those who were questioning whose company we’re in, you have your answer. Indiana, UCLA, Louisville. Works for me.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I'd be happy if the ACC would just go North-South.

Even if the ACC went North-South we still only play BC and Pitt from the North. We need more Northern teams in the ACC. It would probably be better to go Big East-ACC split.

SU, BC, Pitt, VA Tech, Louisville, Miami, Wake
FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, UNC, Duke, NC State, UVA

That screws Wake over but everyone else is happy.

It wouldn't be worth it financially but if the ACC added WV/Temple we would actually have more of the Northeast that we all desire. But that would also likely require the ACC going to 18 teams. In FB you can split into 3 divisions and play 9 games.

N- ND, Pitt, WV, SU, BC, Temple
W- Clemson, Louisville, Cincy, VA Tech, NC State, Wake
E- FSU, Miami, GA Tech, UVA, UNC, Duke

For SU:

Year 1: ND, Pitt, WV, BC, Temple, Clemson, NC State, Wake
Year 2: ND, Pitt, WV, BC, Temple, Louisville, Cincy, VA Tech
Year 3: ND, Pitt, WV, BC, Temple, FSU, UVA, UNC
Year 4: ND, Pitt, WV, BC, Temple, Miami, GA Tech, Duke

 

[Hoo's That]

A couple of points that have been raised before:
1. UNC and UVa are 99% a package deal. UNC would like to take Duke with them, but it's not a deal-killer.
2. Neither will do anything to make the ACC implode.
3. If the ACC ever does implode, they will both have a landing place.
4. As long as NC State and VPI are satisfied with their landing places the state governments won't intervene.

My position long has been that "play for pay" has to be considered in any speculation about expanding the playoffs or creating super-leagues of "elite" teams (sure, we can go to X number of teams, but for how long?). Also need to consider when, not if, "play for pay" comes in, how many schools will refuse to pay and how many will refuse to play teams that do pay?

 

[JimBoston]

If you look at basketball, there are currently 6 teams in the ACC that are in the top 50 college basketball all time winning percentage leaders, which is the same number as the current Big East which has 4 fewer schools. (I was surprised there were only 6 ACC schools in the all time top 50 and 3 of them came from the Big East.) In the Big East at its peak there were 10. That was the greatest college basketball conference of all time.

 

[Sherman20]

‘There’s just a disconnect’: Maryland basketball, great expectations and the stark reality of a program at a crossroad

Maryland's basketball future depends on more than just its next coach

theathletic.com

"Some programs in that rare air are obvious. Your Dukes, Kentuckys, North Carolinas, and so on.

Others, not so clear. What do we make of Indiana or UCLA or Syracuse or Louisville, so on?"


"This is the trend, overall. Since sending nine teams to both the 2017 and 2018 NCAA Tournaments, the ACC sent seven in 2019, was projected to send five in 2020, sent seven last season. It’s expected to have a potentially woeful 2022 Selection Sunday showing. The Big Ten, meanwhile, produced eight NCAA bids in 2019, was projected for 10 in 2020, sent nine teams to the bracket last season and is in line for eight or so bids this season.

So while the likes of Duke, North Carolina and Virginia might be more natural rivals and allies for Maryland, it’s the Big Ten that’s provided more paths to success."


My own opinion is that when you leave your roots behind, you are likely to suffer for it. it still kills me that there's no (North) Eastern conference and I think all the potential schools (Boston College, Connecticut, Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Temple, Maryland and maybe Cincinnati if we couldn't get Notre Dame), would be better off in it.

Maryland also has a glaring issue discussed in the article:
—Maryland basketball is one of the last power conference basketball programs without a dedicated practice facility. The only others are believed to be Cal and Boston College. It’s one of those curious juxtapositions when it comes to Maryland basketball. No one would ever mention the Terps with Cal or Boston College when considering the sport’s hierarchy. Yet, here they are.

“The fact that they had to bend over backward to advance football has clearly had a negative impact on our ability to raise money and build our practice facility,” says a Maryland basketball source. “It just has. The athletic department might say, ‘Well, we had to do this (for football),’ and they’re right, they did, but it shouldn’t have had such a disastrous impact on basketball. If we’re a basketball school, and you also want to raise the profile of football, don’t negatively impact basketball for the next decade to do it.”

 

[AlaskaSU]

‘There’s just a disconnect’: Maryland basketball, great expectations and the stark reality of a program at a crossroad

Maryland's basketball future depends on more than just its next coach

theathletic.com

"Some programs in that rare air are obvious. Your Dukes, Kentuckys, North Carolinas, and so on.

Others, not so clear. What do we make of Indiana or UCLA or Syracuse or Louisville, so on?"


"This is the trend, overall. Since sending nine teams to both the 2017 and 2018 NCAA Tournaments, the ACC sent seven in 2019, was projected to send five in 2020, sent seven last season. It’s expected to have a potentially woeful 2022 Selection Sunday showing. The Big Ten, meanwhile, produced eight NCAA bids in 2019, was projected for 10 in 2020, sent nine teams to the bracket last season and is in line for eight or so bids this season.

So while the likes of Duke, North Carolina and Virginia might be more natural rivals and allies for Maryland, it’s the Big Ten that’s provided more paths to success."


My own opinion is that when you leave your roots behind, you are likely to suffer for it. it still kills me that there's no (North) Eastern conference and I think all the potential schools (Boston College, Connecticut, Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Temple, Maryland and maybe Cincinnati if we couldn't get Notre Dame), would be better off in it.

Maryland has more hypothetical ncaa chances in the Big 10, but leaving your roots behind came back to bite them in recruiting. Ditto for us. All zone all the time did not hurt us when we were successful because we had talent. It is now another hurdle in recruiting. two recruiting strikes: 1) leaving our roots, 2) sticking to an ineffective zone.
Arguing that we had no choice is irrelevant to an assessment of the current situation. It may well be that this is our best option but that does not make it a good situation. Sometimes there are no good options.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Maryland also has a glaring issue discussed in the article:
—Maryland basketball is one of the last power conference basketball programs without a dedicated practice facility. The only others are believed to be Cal and Boston College. It’s one of those curious juxtapositions when it comes to Maryland basketball. No one would ever mention the Terps with Cal or Boston College when considering the sport’s hierarchy. Yet, here they are.

“The fact that they had to bend over backward to advance football has clearly had a negative impact on our ability to raise money and build our practice facility,” says a Maryland basketball source. “It just has. The athletic department might say, ‘Well, we had to do this (for football),’ and they’re right, they did, but it shouldn’t have had such a disastrous impact on basketball. If we’re a basketball school, and you also want to raise the profile of football, don’t negatively impact basketball for the next decade to do it.”

That really isn't true. If they had stayed in the ACC they would have been fine in football. Their football isn't any better competitively. Their AD had spent too much money and took the B1G bail out.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

A couple of points that have been raised before:
1. UNC and UVa are 99% a package deal. UNC would like to take Duke with them, but it's not a deal-killer.
2. Neither will do anything to make the ACC implode.
3. If the ACC ever does implode, they will both have a landing place.
4. As long as NC State and VPI are satisfied with their landing places the state governments won't intervene.

My position long has been that "play for pay" has to be considered in any speculation about expanding the playoffs or creating super-leagues of "elite" teams (sure, we can go to X number of teams, but for how long?). Also need to consider when, not if, "play for pay" comes in, how many schools will refuse to pay and how many will refuse to play teams that do pay?

I don't think it will happen but a 36/42 team B1G is the only way I see UNC/UVA leaving the ACC. Which leaves a home in the SEC for VA Tech and NC State.

 

[JimBoston]

A couple of points that have been raised before:
1. UNC and UVa are 99% a package deal. UNC would like to take Duke with them, but it's not a deal-killer.
2. Neither will do anything to make the ACC implode.
3. If the ACC ever does implode, they will both have a landing place.
4. As long as NC State and VPI are satisfied with their landing places the state governments won't intervene.

My position long has been that "play for pay" has to be considered in any speculation about expanding the playoffs or creating super-leagues of "elite" teams (sure, we can go to X number of teams, but for how long?). Also need to consider when, not if, "play for pay" comes in, how many schools will refuse to pay and how many will refuse to play teams that do pay?

As to Point #4, the politicians in Texas and Oklahoma didn't block Texas and Oklahoma from leaving behind Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, and Oklahoma State in the Big 12, so I don't think politics would be a major factor. I don't think it will happen, but If UNC and UVA left the ACC, NC State and Virginia Tech would be fine in whatever new conference they joined and so would the rest of the current ACC schools.

 

[CousCuse]

A couple of points that have been raised before:
1. UNC and UVa are 99% a package deal. UNC would like to take Duke with them, but it's not a deal-killer.
2. Neither will do anything to make the ACC implode.
3. If the ACC ever does implode, they will both have a landing place.
4. As long as NC State and VPI are satisfied with their landing places the state governments won't intervene.

My position long has been that "play for pay" has to be considered in any speculation about expanding the playoffs or creating super-leagues of "elite" teams (sure, we can go to X number of teams, but for how long?). Also need to consider when, not if, "play for pay" comes in, how many schools will refuse to pay and how many will refuse to play teams that do pay?

How long will schools like UVA, UNC, VT,NCST, GT, Clemson and FSU hold the line when they can double their payout?

 

[Hoo's That]

How long will schools like UVA, UNC, VT,NCST, GT, Clemson and FSU hold the line when they can double their payout?

My understanding of "play for pay" is that the players would not have to go to class. If that is the case, UVa and Ga Tech will make whatever cutbacks that become necessary in order not to pay the players because there's less money. Ga Tech left the SEC over academics (or the lack thereof in the SEC other than at Vanderbilt), so not having to go to class would be a big consideration for them. What also enters into "play for pay" is where is the money coming from? Everyone points to the TV money. But that TV money finances the entire athletic program. Men's sports would be cut to shreds because Title IX considerations would prevent cutting women's sports. I really don't think that the Federal government (i.e., the courts) will not go along with the "football and basketball players are now employees" argument. I have no idea what UNC would do. VPI, NC State, Clemson, and FSU will go to the "play for pay" model in a nanosecond, with varying degrees of success.

 

[CousCuse]

My understanding of "play for pay" is that the players would not have to go to class. If that is the case, UVa and Ga Tech will make whatever cutbacks that become necessary in order not to pay the players because there's less money. Ga Tech left the SEC over academics (or the lack thereof in the SEC other than at Vanderbilt), so not having to go to class would be a big consideration for them. What also enters into "play for pay" is where is the money coming from? Everyone points to the TV money. But that TV money finances the entire athletic program. Men's sports would be cut to shreds because Title IX considerations would prevent cutting women's sports. I really don't think that the Federal government (i.e., the courts) will not go along with the "football and basketball players are now employees" argument. I have no idea what UNC would do. VPI, NC State, Clemson, and FSU will go to the "play for pay" model in a nanosecond, with varying degrees of success.

That's what I would surmise. UVA, UNC, Gtech and probably ND to the B1G. FSU, Clemson, NCST, VT to the SEC. Not sure what would happen to the rest of the conference teams, maybe SU to the B1G. Then you have 1 super conference that employs pay for play and 1 that holds to academic traditions. The monetary discrepancy is just getting too big for something not to give.

 

[Hoo's That]

That's what I would surmise. UVA, UNC, Gtech and probably ND to the B1G. FSU, Clemson, NCST, VT to the SEC. Not sure what would happen to the rest of the conference teams, maybe SU to the B1G. Then you have 1 super conference that employs pay for play and 1 that holds to academic traditions. The monetary discrepancy is just getting too big for something not to give.

I don't think you can project any moves to any conferences because schools will opt in/out of "play for pay" and all (I believe) the P5 conferences will implode. It could very well lead to a return to greater regionalization in new conference structures. I see as a core for our new conference as UVa, Wake, Duke, Vanderbilt, Ga Tech, and, probably, Tulane.

 

[CousCuse]

I don't think you can project any moves to any conferences because schools will opt in/out of "play for pay" and all (I believe) the P5 conferences will implode. It could very well lead to a return to greater regionalization in new conference structures. I see as a core for our new conference as UVa, Wake, Duke, Vanderbilt, Ga Tech, and, probably, Tulane.

I thought the Alliance was formed by conferences that don't want to use the PFP model. There are a number of teams in the Alliance conferences that are fine with PFP. USC, Oregon, Ohio St and the ACC teams. Probably two separate divisions will happen with the B1G leading one and the SEC leading the other.