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Message: [QUOTE="Zelda Zonk, post: 145089, member: 966"] You ARE talking about giving "credit." So, please define what merits this "credit" you're so desperate to give. A kid comes in, develops at some rate, and you want to give a gold star to the person who was supposedly responsible for the kid. Okay, fine. I'd assert that gold star has no actual value, since it's based on nothing at all. Nothing other than your allegiance to a guy who's greatest actual claim to fame is his longevity at a single job position. So, to answer your question — No. No, you can't measure his contribution. If you could, you might have done it already. If all the big men learn the same post moves, you're beginning with the assumption they're coming in as blank slates. Are you suggesting that they've 'mastered' these post moves? They know how to utilize space in the zone? What does that even mean? You haven't even defined what's 'good' about what our big men have supposedly learned. In my estimation, aside from the ones who come in with solid kinetic sensibilities, they tend NOT to improve at a rate i would expect. We've had a lot of guys come in and, although they may have matured in their decision-making, did NOT improve with regard to skills — not at a rate commensurate with their experience and level of training and competition. Re: Otis Hill and Rick Jackson — where are they now? Did either one of them come in as a 'bottom 75' recruit and then surprise everyone by making the NBA? Where's the so-called jump in their skills and abilities, for which you need to award Fine with a gold star? And, who says all the big men learn the same moves? If that were true, and if Fine's contribution had a valid metric for defining his contribution, all the big men would be similarly successful in executing those moves. Clearly, that is not the case. They all have different abilities and progress at different rates. Which, by extension, means the player/individual is the factor. Which, by extension, means Fine's contribution CANNOT be defined. Melo's improvement... Fab is not doing anything he didn't do in high school. What he IS doing is doing it consistently, and against upper level competition. He's able to do this because he's better-conditioned now and has more experience competing at this level. You want to credit Fine for the last year, but not blame him for the prior year? You're not getting what i'm saying. Demonstrable results. Metrics. How do you propose to measure the rate of improvement, or the success? More important, how do you compare that metric with how the player would have progressed WITHOUT Fine or with another tutor? You need a baseline to determine a value, and you can't have a baseline without TWO DISTINCT PATHS OF REALITY. Sure. That's the same thing. Whatever - this has nothing to do with his alleged wrongdoing. So, he had a camp. This is one of those issues in society... You put your name on something and all of a sudden, people begin to assume you're an expert. [For an off-topic example, look into Ken Rockwell. He established a website with information about photographic gear. Over the years, more and more people have come to attribute 'information' to him, and rely on his reviews. At this point, he's almost a 'staple' in the field. Yet, he's a hack photographer who's never actually produced an important image.] I've maintained for years that the 'Fine reputation' for developing big men was a specious claim at best. He had longevity at his job and has been connected to a winning program. That's his claim. Other than that, you have no idea how much better or worse our players could/would have been under someone else. Please tell me you understand that. It's like giving credit to Fine for Derrick Coleman helping to get us to the final game in 86, but not allowing that Coleman could have scored two points more in that game, if he had been coached by someone else. You're cherrypicking 'stats' based on some misguided sentiment. This all reads like it's from a Fine cousin, determined to rehabilitate the man's professional reputation. Let the man retire to India where he can be free to enjoy his hobbies. [/QUOTE]

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