Big 10 and Transfers

[Cheriehoop]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...016/05/21/big-ten-coaches-transfers/84733562/

“Every situation’s unique, and we’re … saying the solutions are varied, but let’s keep putting ideas out there to make us better. It’s everywhere in men’s basketball. You couple that with NBA attrition, and sometimes it’s hard for coaches to build programs because they’re patching tires.”

 

[Flacusian]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...016/05/21/big-ten-coaches-transfers/84733562/

“Every situation’s unique, and we’re … saying the solutions are varied, but let’s keep putting ideas out there to make us better. It’s everywhere in men’s basketball. You couple that with NBA attrition, and sometimes it’s hard for coaches to build programs because they’re patching tires.”

We feel your pain John.

 

[NKR1978]

The Big 10 has no credibility. They're the conference most resistant to changes that will benefit the student athlete. Which is interesting because they're also the conference that brags about having "more money than God." It's funny to see a guy like Beilein, who has jumped from job to job to job chasing a bigger payday, complain about athletes not "fighting adversity."

I'm so glad we messed up his recruiting class by getting Battle to flip.

 

[Alsacs]

We have become an instant gratification society. My generation sucks and we were more patience than these millennials growing up now.
Kids don't want to sit and develop for 1 or 2 years and then be upperclassmen and dominate. They want playing time from their freshman year on. It is a dumb mentality but these kids are spoiled now.

Now the elimination of the grad transfer rule would be dumb. These kids aren't paid once they graduate from their college I have no problem with free agency. The NCAA calls these kids student-athletes if they graduate from their school they have accomplished the benefit hey have received in exchange for the athletics abilities. Once they graduate get that graduate degree wherever you want without sitting out.

Beilein is frustrated but I don't agree with the grad transfer. Maybe athletics specifically football and men's basketball shouldn't be about money if he wants the kids to stay. Beilein has made millions of dollars while his kids have made nothing.

 

[Timonen]

It's so perfect that as soon as the player gets a tiny bit of leverage, the institution cries foul and looks for ways to shut it down. So these are student athletes who have graduated (or just want to be students somewhere else). How dare they be so self serving. When coaches agree to sit out a year for changing jobs, then maybe they can start talking about the kids.

 

[Cheriehoop]

The Big 10 has no credibility. They're the conference most resistant to changes that will benefit the student athlete. Which is interesting because they're also the conference that brags about having "more money than God." It's funny to see a guy like Beilein, who has jumped from job to job to job chasing a bigger payday, complain about athletes not "fighting adversity."

I'm so glad we messed up his recruiting class by getting Battle to flip.

You do know that Beilein is definitely not the standard bearer for job jumping that you characterize him as. He slowly but steadily ascended the coaching ranks, staying at Lemoyne for 9 years, Canisius 5 years, Richmond 5 years and when he was almost 50 years old got the job at WVU, his first major conference job, staying at WVU for 5 years. He's not a job jumper. He's had to earn his way through the ranks. The Big10 conference itself, I agree with you, I'm not crazy about at all- but Beilein has earned respect by climbing the ladder, not jumping it.

1975–1978 Newfane HS
1978–1982 Erie CC
1982–1983 Nazareth (NY)
1983–1992 Le Moyne
1992–1997 Canisius
1997–2002 Richmond
2002–2007 West Virginia
2007–present Michigan

 

[pfister1]

We have become an instant gratification society. My generation sucks and we were more patience than these millennials growing up now.
Kids don't want to sit and develop for 1 or 2 years and then be upperclassmen and dominate. They want playing time from their freshman year on. It is a dumb mentality but these kids are spoiled now.

Now the elimination of the grad transfer rule would be dumb. These kids aren't paid once they graduate from their college I have no problem with free agency. The NCAA calls these kids student-athletes if they graduate from their school they have accomplished the benefit hey have received in exchange for the athletics abilities. Once they graduate get that graduate degree wherever you want without sitting out.

Beilein is frustrated but I don't agree with the grad transfer. Maybe athletics specifically football and men's basketball shouldn't be about money if he wants the kids to stay. Beilein has made millions of dollars while his kids have made nothing.

Why should they want to sit for one or two years when the sport glorifies the one and dones and Calipari's classes of 5 or 6 one year 5star mercenaries. You can't have it both ways. The "good" players should be able to go where they can play right away and then leave for the NBA, but the next level should or two levels removed should go be patient and be glad they might get a chance by their junior or senior years.

The NCAA should do a couple of things in my view:
1. Eliminate the rule that makes players that enter the draft forfeit their eligibility. The rule is just stupid!!
2. Decide whether it wants to be a quasi professional basketball association or sports that played by athletes that are attending school for the purpose of getting a degree. If the former then remove all of the restrictions to transferring and make the kids free agents every year. If the later put some real penalties in place for schools that take kids that are not interested in getting a degree. In other words if you are going to leave early you don't belong in college. This is easier for me to say if the distinction was between the one and done and the four year player.....I'm not sure how you deal with the kid that wants to go pro after his junior year.

 

[Alsacs]

Why should they want to sit for one or two years when the sport glorifies the one and dones and Calipari's classes of 5 or 6 one year 5star mercenaries. You can't have it both ways. The "good" players should be able to go where they can play right away and then leave for the NBA, but the next level should or two levels removed should go be patient and be glad they might get a chance by their junior or senior years.

The NCAA should do a couple of things in my view:
1. Eliminate the rule that makes players that enter the draft forfeit their eligibility. The rule is just stupid!!
2. Decide whether it wants to be a quasi professional basketball association or sports that played by athletes that are attending school for the purpose of getting a degree. If the former then remove all of the restrictions to transferring and make the kids free agents every year. If the later put some real penalties in place for schools that take kids that are not interested in getting a degree. In other words if you are going to leave early you don't belong in college. This is easier for me to say if the distinction was between the one and done and the four year player...I'm not sure how you deal with the kid that wants to go pro after his junior year.

If you don't want to wait and develop go play at Florida Gulf Coast or Rhode Island or Saint Bonaventure and play from day 1. Don't go to a big school and then complain when you have to wait till your Sophomore or Junior year to start.
That is my point. These kids complain when they go to big schools and don't play that much as Freshman so they transfer.

The rest I have no problem with any of your proposals. The kids should get more protection from the NCAA cartel.

 

[Cheriehoop]

It's so perfect that as soon as the player gets a tiny bit of leverage, the institution cries foul and looks for ways to shut it down. So these are student athletes who have graduated (or just want to be students somewhere else). How dare they be so self serving. When coaches agree to sit out a year for changing jobs, then maybe they can start talking about the kids.

That's the issue - let kids transfer if the coach leaves. I imagine coach's contracts with universities would change as a result. Heck, I know in business there are non-compete clauses why not one for coaches that last a year after they leave? The grad transfer issue usually hurts smaller universities whose players want to jump to bigger universities and greater visibility. JB has always spoken about having the same 1 year rule for all transfers , these other coaches only speak out after they are affected. It didn't matter when the smaller universities were the ones who were poached and the large ones benefited.

 

[reedny]

Why should they want to sit for one or two years when the sport glorifies the one and dones and Calipari's classes of 5 or 6 one year 5star mercenaries. You can't have it both ways. The "good" players should be able to go where they can play right away and then leave for the NBA, but the next level should or two levels removed should go be patient and be glad they might get a chance by their junior or senior years.

The NCAA should do a couple of things in my view:
1. Eliminate the rule that makes players that enter the draft forfeit their eligibility. The rule is just stupid!!
2. Decide whether it wants to be a quasi professional basketball association or sports that played by athletes that are attending school for the purpose of getting a degree. If the former then remove all of the restrictions to transferring and make the kids free agents every year. If the later put some real penalties in place for schools that take kids that are not interested in getting a degree. In other words if you are going to leave early you don't belong in college. This is easier for me to say if the distinction was between the one and done and the four year player...I'm not sure how you deal with the kid that wants to go pro after his junior year.

I agree with 2: the Graduate Success Rate is a joke if schools like UK can get away with running a D-League system where players take one semester of paper mache and skate to pro ball. But as far as 1, they changed the rule for this year. As you could see with MR, players can enter their name in the draft, participate in the combine and get feedback. If their changes of being drafted are unclear (and they don't sign with an agent), they can go back to school.

 

[NKR1978]

You do know that Beilein is definitely not the standard bearer for job jumping that you characterize him as. He slowly but steadily ascended the coaching ranks, staying at Lemoyne for 9 years, Canisius 5 years, Richmond 5 years and when he was almost 50 years old got the job at WVU, his first major conference job, staying at WVU for 5 years. He's not a job jumper. He's had to earn his way through the ranks. The Big10 conference itself, I agree with you, I'm not crazy about at all- but Beilein has earned respect by climbing the ladder, not jumping it.

1975–1978 Newfane HS
1978–1982 Erie CC
1982–1983 Nazareth (NY)
1983–1992 Le Moyne
1992–1997 Canisius
1997–2002 Richmond
2002–2007 West Virginia
2007–present Michigan

That's fair, but he had a run of leaving jobs after five years. West Virginia kids were recruited specifically to play his style, which was very unique in the Big East.

I have no issue with moving 0n, and certainly no issue with climbing a ladder; but there's some real cognitive dissonance hearing about loyalty and perseverence from a guy who switched jobs every five years from 1992-2007. You'd think he would be more understanding of these kids doing what's best for them without whining to the press.

 

[pfister1]

I agree with 2: the Graduate Success Rate is a joke if schools like UK can get away with running a D-League system where players take one semester of paper mache and skate to pro ball. But as far as 1, they changed the rule for this year. As you could see with MR, players can enter their name in the draft, participate in the combine and get feedback. If their changes of being drafted are unclear (and they don't sign with an agent), they can go back to school.

I don't think that goes far enough. Why not let them be drafted, negotiate with the team that drafted them and if they don't like the contract that they are being offered allow them to return? That would be the best case scenario for the athlete. That way you don't have guys like Malachi relying on what agents, or teams "promise" them will occur in giving up their eligibility. There is zero reason that they have to accept benefits prior to signing that first contract. They may want to do so, but they don't have to.

 

[Madbiker]

I don't think that goes far enough. Why not let them be drafted, negotiate with the team that drafted them and if they don't like the contract that they are being offered allow them to return? That would be the best case scenario for the athlete. That way you don't have guys like Malachi relying on what agents, or teams "promise" them will occur in giving up their eligibility. There is zero reason that they have to accept benefits prior to signing that first contract. They may want to do so, but they don't have to.

The NBA would hate this idea. Which is exactly why the NCAA should use the threat of enacting it as leverage to get the NBA to reform it's draft eligibility rules and move to the MLB model. Players can go into the draft from high school but if they choose college they cannot be drafted until after their junior year. This would be better for both the NCAA and NBA.

 

[Rage4CUSE]

The NBA would hate this idea. Which is exactly why the NCAA should use the threat of enacting it as leverage to get the NBA to reform it's draft eligibility rules and move to the MLB model. Players can go into the draft from high school but if they choose college they cannot be drafted until after their junior year. This would be better for both the NCAA and NBA.

3 years seems to be to much. 2 years I think would be the ideal time frame.

In the NFL it makes complete sense to keep kids from being able to go pro until 3 years out of high school because they(99%) aren't physically mature enough yet. I don't get that for an NBA or MLB standpoint.

 

[Timonen]

3 years seems to be to much. 2 years I think would be the ideal time frame.

In the NFL it makes complete sense to keep kids from being able to go pro until 3 years out of high school because they(99%) aren't physically mature enough yet. I don't get that for an NBA or MLB standpoint.

I don't buy the physical maturity rationalization for football. If a team wants to pay them while they become physically mature, that should be allowed.

 

[Rage4CUSE]

I don't buy the physical maturity rationalization for football. If a team wants to pay them while they become physically mature, that should be allowed.

Why would a team pay for a kid to mature if they aren't playing them?

And yes a large majority of freshman would get seriously injured if they went straight to NFL instead of college.

 

[bozophobe]

That's fair, but he had a run of leaving jobs after five years. West Virginia kids were recruited specifically to play his style, which was very unique in the Big East.

I have no issue with moving 0n, and certainly no issue with climbing a ladder; but there's some real cognitive dissonance hearing about loyalty and perseverence from a guy who switched jobs every five years from 1992-2007. You'd think he would be more understanding of these kids doing what's best for them without whining to the press.

I don't see what's so wrong with someone following a 5 year timeline like that - assuming it's okay for the many others who have done the same.

 

[JoeySimz]

I think it comes down to exposure, at least as far as nba dreams go.

Less playing time = less exposure = less opportunity to play professionally. There are a few exceptions like UK, where the kids who don't play can still get drafted based on potential. The mere fact that they were a top 10 or 20 recruit at UK gives them way more positive exposure than even starters at other schools.

So the kid who was not a top recruit, not on Duke/UK, or is not getting playing time on tv, has a very small window to find that opportunity elsewhere. He can stick it out and be loyal, but that seems like a risk if he has the opportunity to play right away elsewhere. Even limited exposure is better than none. What are the minuses? He still has the same opportunity to complete a degree.

Each kid has to assess his own unique situation. I dunno.

 

[NKR1978]

I don't see what's so wrong with someone following a 5 year timeline like that - assuming it's okay for the many others who have done the same.

Did you miss the part where I said I have no issue with it? My problem is that he's a hypocrite for doing what's best for him while at the same time whining about people doing what's best for themselves. I think it's BS that coaches who can leave their position at the drop of a hat have the audacity to try to keep their athletes in a state of indentured servitude with little freedom.

 

[JoeySimz]

Did you miss the part where I said I have no issue with it? My problem is that he's a hypocrite for doing what's best for him while at the same time whining about people doing what's best for themselves. I think it's BS that coaches who can leave their position at the drop of a hat have the audacity to try to keep their athletes in a state of indentured servitude with little freedom.

Exactly. And that goes for AD's, assistant coaches, and any of the other careerists at these institutions who benefit from the system.

 

[Col. Bleep]

... The kids should get more protection from the NCAA cartel.

A cartel is exactly what it is.
The time is ripe for antitrust litigation that will turn things on their head.
Cases have already been filed (see below).

This isn't about "schools" and "academics" any more.
Big time college sports are a business.
It's all about the Benjamins.

https://www.hbsslaw.com/cases/ncaa-...er-and-scholarship-rules-in-antitrust-lawsuit

https://www.mintz.com/legal-insight...ing-ncaas-scholarship-caps-and-transfer-rules

 

[Cheriehoop]

Exactly. And that goes for AD's, assistant coaches, and any of the other careerists at these institutions who benefit from the system.

I imagine the same people complaining about Beilein leaving after 5 years (who had a contract that he had to follow or payback) also complained when Scott Shafer and Greg Robinson were both fired before even 5 years elapsed both never getting to stay for the full terms of their contract? The university had to pay them because they broke the terms of their contract while if either coach hadn't fulfilled the terms of their contract, leaving early, they would have had to pay back the university.

My problem with Beilein etc and the Big 10's sudden issue with grad transfers is that they had no problem with it when it wasn't affecting them and it was the small schools taking it on the chin. Now that it's affecting the "power" schools in the Big 10, they want to rally against it.

 

[Timonen]

Why would a team pay for a kid to mature if they aren't playing them?

And yes a large majority of freshman would get seriously injured if they went straight to NFL instead of college.

Like Tracey McGrady or Jermaine Onealor rashard Lewis? It's an investment. To me the euro soccer model is most equitable. Kids get signed in their low teens and are brought up through academies run by the team...while being paid. They're loaned to lower division teams which helps recoup costs and gives experience at appropriate levels...and then they're available when ready for the primary club.

 

[manleyzoo]

That's fair, but he had a run of leaving jobs after five years. West Virginia kids were recruited specifically to play his style, which was very unique in the Big East.

I have no issue with moving 0n, and certainly no issue with climbing a ladder; but there's some real cognitive dissonance hearing about loyalty and perseverence from a guy who switched jobs every five years from 1992-2007. You'd think he would be more understanding of these kids doing what's best for them without whining to the press.

I don't get how a 63-year old lifelong coach who's put in his dues and mid-career changed jobs three times in 15 years and has been at his current job for nine years is a job jumper and undeserving of voicing his opinion on the state of the game. It's not like he was the only coach quoted in the article and it's not like he made unequivocal statements. As a veteran guy he merely said, "Houston, we have a problem." Boeheim's said the same thing many times.

 

[Alsacs]

Beilein is being most vocal because he is being affected 2 years in a row with kids graduating and going to conference rivals.
Max Bielfeldt went fro Michigan to Indiana this year as a 5th year graduate.
Spike Albricht is leaving for Purdue.
Beilein is a good guy but he comes off completely selfish.

College players are cattle used to make millions. Now they get some benefits but the schools/coaches get the better end of the bargain. If they want to move on after graduating then they should be allowed.

The current rules are fine.