Calipari is just a little too defensive here, isn’t he?

[Brooky03]

Dude. Boeheims never going to come out and say that a player needs to stay and not declare for the draft to make the team better for...obvious reasons.

I mean I have no interest in turning this into another mind numbing debate over when a kid should and should not declare. But if really think that Boeheim had no ulterior motives in saying that about those guys, with the team coming back, well I;m not going to sit here and try to convince you otherwise.

Fair enough. For context, there are numerous departures that dealt a blow to the roster that Boeheim had no problem supporting. Maybe he flips a coin to decide if an early departure bothers him or not.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

You didn’t think he was rambling when he started talking about volume shooters?

I think it’s incredibly arrogant of him to talk like he’s doing something special by “teaching them to defend” and “it’s about the team” or whatever as opposed to the other coaches out there...as if they don’t all do that.

Give him Pepperdine’s roster every year and he’s not “developing” any pros.

He’s a great recruiter and a strong coach in terms of winning games. Those things are undeniable. He’s not doing anything for any of these players that every other coach isn’t doing, in terms of “development”.

Rambling? No.
As for the rest, again, he's doing two things: defending himself/the program against an assertion he reasonably disagrees with; and representing his program toward his next batch of top 10 highschoolers. Anything he does legally and tastefully in that effort is all good by me. He's typically in a good mood, upbeat, and supportive of his players. Good stuff. Now, whatever goes on under the hood is another matter. But, there aren't many coaches that do a better job of representing and promoting their programs. It's 'sales.' Doesn't matter whether every other coach does something. Firstly, i don't think they do. But, more importantly, and again with the Trump comp, it doesn't matter what you do if you don't tell everyone about it. This isn't philanthropy. Recruiting and image are pretty important.

I don't want to play it again, but i don't think he said other coaches aren't teaching defense. He just sorta emphasized his own approach toward getting a bunch of highly-ranked high schoolers to play together as a team, and then working with them to prepare for the NBA afterward. Which is exactly what i'd want to hear as a kid. And don't they do Ohio State-like 'pro days?' I don't think that's a super common thing.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Boeheim needs to do a better job of being private with his criticisms. I don't understand the point of being "honest" in public. What good does it serve, unless he's hoping to bolster public sentiment against a kid going pro? Which would be sad.

The difference between what Cal does versus 200 other coaches is PR. They may all be doing the same things, but Cal has the results/products in the NBA, and then he leverages that toward signing more NBA-eventual talent. You kinda need both. It's a positive feedback machine.

 

[Brooky03]

Rambling? No.
As for the rest, again, he's doing two things: defending himself/the program against an assertion he reasonably disagrees with; and representing his program toward his next batch of top 10 highschoolers. Anything he does legally and tastefully in that effort is all good by me. He's typically in a good mood, upbeat, and supportive of his players. Good stuff. Now, whatever goes on under the hood is another matter. But, there aren't many coaches that do a better job of representing and promoting their programs. It's 'sales.' Doesn't matter whether every other coach does something. Firstly, i don't think they do. But, more importantly, and again with the Trump comp, it doesn't matter what you do if you don't tell everyone about it. This isn't philanthropy. Recruiting and image are pretty important.

I don't want to play it again, but i don't think he said other coaches aren't teaching defense. He just sorta emphasized his own approach toward getting a bunch of highly-ranked high schoolers to play together as a team, and then working with them to prepare for the NBA afterward. Which is exactly what i'd want to hear as a kid. And don't they do Ohio State-like 'pro days?' I don't think that's a super common thing.

The assertion wasn't that he doesn't coach players or help them get better. The assertion was that pros are recruited, not produced. Can we name a guy Cal made into a pro? A guy who likely would not have been a pro if he went somewhere else? If we can't, then Cal's argument that he's produced pros who would not have otherwise gone pro, is not a reasonable argument for him to make.

Based on your responses in this thread, it feels like you're arguing something different. I didn't take this thread as a biased hit piece on Cal. Coach K is generally received well around here. If he said the same thing, he'd be criticized, too.

 

[Brooky03]

Boeheim needs to do a better job of being private with his criticisms. I don't understand the point of being "honest" in public. What good does it serve, unless he's hoping to bolster public sentiment against a kid going pro? Which would be sad.

The difference between what Cal does versus 200 other coaches is PR. They may all be doing the same things, but Cal has the results/products in the NBA, and then he leverages that toward signing more NBA-eventual talent. You kinda need both. It's a positive feedback machine.

I think public honesty/criticism has a good track record. Some of the best coaches I can think of do/did not pull punches when it came to talking publicly about their players.

Cal definitely has a leg up as a salesman. Different ways to skin a cat.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The assertion wasn't that he doesn't coach players or help them get better. The assertion was that pros are recruited, not produced. Can we name a guy Cal made into a pro? A guy who likely would not have been a pro if he went somewhere else? If we can't, then Cal's argument that he's produced pros who would not have otherwise gone pro, is not a reasonable argument for him to make.

Based on your responses in this thread, it feels like you're arguing something different. I didn't take this thread as a biased hit piece on Cal. Coach K is generally received well around here. If he said the same thing, he'd be criticized, too.

I know what you're saying, but the important part of Cal's argument is not just that a super talented highschooler is almost predestined to get to the NBA, but that they stick, because they're not just relying on their innate talent level in high school. Cal made a very specific point about his guys not just getting the first contract, but the second and third. And that his guys stick at a 75% rate, versus 15-25? from other programs. I don't know where he got those stats, but it seemed like he was familiar with them because he uses them in recruiting. Bilas' assertion may be true, but it's also simplistic, and it has implications that marginalize Cal's contribution to the equation. Which is why Cal tried to refute those implications.

I did think the thread was another slight of Cal. And that this forum is full of them. Which doesn't really bother me, as i'm not actually a fan. But, i do respect the way he gets people to buy into his spiel. The way i respect the way K does it, although differently. These guys aren't just coaches. For the record, though, my most disliked college hoops programs are probably Duke and Kentucky. I'm just 'arguing' the opinion OrangeDW came away with, which is odd because i'm almost invariably on the same side of things with him. So, no malice or anything here.

 

[sufandu]

Right. I’m sure when he was critical of Grant and Ennis’ decision it was entirely out of concern for their future, and had nothing to do with what we had coming back.

He was giving his opinion based on the older view that you leave early when you ready to be an NBA starter from tye get go. He had not yet grasped the view that NBA gm's view age as a detriment. His way of evaluating draft readiness had not caught up to the NBA's. That's different than being selfish.

 

[Horn88]

He was giving his opinion based on the older view that you leave early when you ready to be an NBA starter from tye get go. He had not yet grasped the view that NBA gm's view age as a detriment. His way of evaluating draft readiness had not caught up to the NBA's. That's different than being selfish.

There wasn't really any reason to voice that opinion publicly after I'm assuming he shared it with the players and their inner circle behind closed doors. Made him come off as selfish to most people and was/is 100% used against us on the recruiting trail.

Also makes it tough for assistants to pitch the family atmosphere of the program when the program's leader is publicly undercutting a player's decision to try and accomplish their dream. That stuff matters when trying to convince a teenager and his family to trust you. Calipari has mastered that angle.

 

[OrangeDW]

I know what you're saying, but the important part of Cal's argument is not just that a super talented highschooler is almost predestined to get to the NBA, but that they stick, because they're not just relying on their innate talent level in high school. Cal made a very specific point about his guys not just getting the first contract, but the second and third. And that his guys stick at a 75% rate, versus 15-25? from other programs. I don't know where he got those stats, but it seemed like he was familiar with them because he uses them in recruiting. Bilas' assertion may be true, but it's also simplistic, and it has implications that marginalize Cal's contribution to the equation. Which is why Cal tried to refute those implications.

I did think the thread was another slight of Cal. And that this forum is full of them. Which doesn't really bother me, as i'm not actually a fan. But, i do respect the way he gets people to buy into his spiel. The way i respect the way K does it, although differently. These guys aren't just coaches. For the record, though, my most disliked college hoops programs are probably Duke and Kentucky. I'm just 'arguing' the opinion OrangeDW came away with, which is odd because i'm almost invariably on the same side of things with him. So, no malice or anything here.

I think so many of them stick because they were legit elite players.

Rose, Wall, Cousins, Davis, etc...I don’t think the 6 months they spent at Kentucky did anything for them in regards to what contracts they’re getting 5-10 years later.