Cooney & Defense

[Cuse4ever]

how does he have a reputation with this forum as great defender? He constantly gets beat either into the lane at the foul line or on the wing forcing the center to move way up the lane or the forward to leave the corner offensive player. I know he got some steals last year (at BC he got a bunch) but his constant inability to keep players from breaking him down and collapsing the entire defense is frustrating. Yet on this forum when he's in cold shooting slump everyone says we need his defense so we have no choice but for him to keep playing. Watch Patterson play his spot, much better defender, doesn't allow penetration into the zone & has a knack for getting loose balls. Cooney lovers please don't think I'm saying he isn't a D1 player or shouldn't be starting but notice how smart coaches like Carlton's last week always attack the zone from Cooneys side when driving into the lane.

 

[jordoo]

I'd say Cooney is a good defender at the top of the zone but not great. He gets his hands on a lot of passes and is very good at keeping an eye on passes back out to the top I believe that is his strength on defense. He also very very rarely leaves a shooter open no matter how far out they are which JB stresses. Overall he is active and knows where to be. I do agree that he allows more penetration than I would like and some of that is that he has never been as good as some others we've had at fighting over screnes while he also doesn't seem to be exceptionally quick at recovering to the ball handler while going under. That combined with the fact that he shades heavily toward stopping open jumpers than driving makes it possible to drive past him. Conversely he seems pretty good at stealing the ball our tipping the dribble when a player tries to split the guards at the top.

Buss has really long arms and his lateral movement is great. I see the same thing you are with him shadowing guys on the perimeter. Even when they try to dribble he is right there up on their hip forcing them further out than they want to. Because of this he's able to go over the screnes since once they are set he rides the ballhandler out enough that he can squeeze through. The more time he gets the better he will be with positioning off the ball and reading passes. Buss has the potential to be one of the more disruptive defenders we've had out top.

That said the fact that Buss may have the tools to be a better defender than Cooney and may already be does not mean that Cooney is a bad defender it does however make it that much easier to sit him down if his shots don't fall because you aren't losing anything on the defensive end.

 

[Cuse4ever]

I'd say Cooney is a good defender at the top of the zone but not great. He gets his hands on a lot of passes and is very good at keeping an eye on passes back out to the top I believe that is his strength on defense. He also very very rarely leaves a shooter open no matter how far out they are which JB stresses. Overall he is active and knows where to be. I do agree that he allows more penetration than I would like and some of that is that he has never been as good as some others we've had at fighting over screnes while he also doesn't seem to be exceptionally quick at recovering to the ball handler while going under. That combined with the fact that he shades heavily toward stopping open jumpers than driving makes it possible to drive past him. Conversely he seems pretty good at stealing the ball our tipping the dribble when a player tries to split the guards at the top.

Buss has really long arms and his lateral movement is great. I see the same thing you are with him shadowing guys on the perimeter. Even when they try to dribble he is right there up on their hip forcing them further out than they want to. Because of this he's able to go over the screnes since once they are set he rides the ballhandler out enough that he can squeeze through. The more time he gets the better he will be with positioning off the ball and reading passes. Buss has the potential to be one of the more disruptive defenders we've had out top.

That said the fact that Buss may have the tools to be a better defender than Cooney and may already be does not mean that Cooney is a bad defender it does however make it that much easier to sit him down if his shots don't fall because you aren't losing anything on the defensive end.

So a defender who can't stay in front of an offensive player is still a good defender? And when another teammate basically double teams (guards pinching at foul line) he gets some steals from behind or helps disrupts the play after being blown by is a good defender?

 

[General20]

Cooney is a good defender and he does not get beat off the dribble consistently.

Does Cooney get beat sometimes? Yes. So does everybody who has ever played basketball; its an offensive sport and you are not going to shut your guy down every time.

Next time Syracuse plays, really watch Cooney; he's got good size, and he is extremely active and disruptive. Keep in mind that sometimes (and definitely against Carleton who had great shooters who were not overly athletic) its the game plan for our guards to get right into shooters faces and dare them to drive the ball into the teeth of our zone.

Cooney is actually one of the most active players Syracuse has ever had; he moves constantly on both offense and defense. Last year he ran about three times as far as any other player on the team during games.

 

[Eagles20]

guy can't do anything offensively and gets blown by on defense... can't believe this guy starts for a top D1 basketball program. What is JB thinking.

Seriously though, I don't understand why this kid continues to get the bulk of criticism on this board. In my opinion he is an above average defender in the zone compared to some of the guys who have played up top. He gives 100% on defense every trip down the court, has good positional awareness, fights for loose balls and rebounds, and does not get blown by as often as some think. Offensively, he does need to be more consistent as everyone knows, but you could say that about a lot of guys on this team. People want to criticize Cooney all time, but at least he has shown ability to have great games ( Cornell, Villanova, ND). Thats more great games than the whole rest of this roster combined. I guess we have two years more of this love/hate relationship with Cooney, well unless he quits to become an intramural all star.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Seriously though, I don't understand why this kid continues to get the bulk of criticism on this board.

It's a cycle of extreme takes. Some people think he's awful. That brings out in equal force the people that defend him at every turn. Which prompts the other crowd to post again how bad they think he is. Which brings another round of Cooney apologists.

And so on.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The defense at the top of our zone last year was a problem at times last year.

Rule 1- stop dribble penetration. It's no secret that to beat a zone, you need to get the ball into the paint by the FT line- every coach in America knows this, some more than others (Dixon is an example). When you let the ballhandler drive to the paint, the odds of the other team scoring are significantly increased--

- this leads to your center getting into foul trouble, which in our case with Rak, we've seen far too much
- obviously, when your center steps up, your forwards need to recover down by the block to avoid an easy dump down for a layup
- instinct kicks in for the guards on defense to react towards the ball to try to recover, thus turning their backs on open shooters at the 3 point line

All of this we saw last year. Obviously, plays like this will happen during a 40min game, because as General alluded to above, the other team is going to score. It's a matter of limiting good looks as much as possible. The issue for me was that some games it seemed our guard defense up top was very porous, and when it's porous, it cascades down.

Just my 2 cents.

All that being said, the last thing I'm worried about is our defense. The glaring issue is shooting, just like last year.

 

[tee1222]

All that being said, the last thing I'm worried about is our defense. The glaring issue is shooting, just like last year.

Agree with all points, but that's everything right there. Great post.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Agree with all points, but that's everything right there. Great post.

And it's a shame. Granted, like I said, I haven't watched the exhibition games, but our downfall in the tournament (assuming we make it), will be because we just can't score. This is my prediction, and it's not bold.

 

[Cusefannotindc]

In general the team had better Defensive Efficiency (opponents point scored per 100 possession) when Cooney wasn't on the court (when Ennis was to eliminate garbage time). In the full season, DE with him on the court was 95, with him off the court it was 90. In conference play the gap was much smaller, 97 on and 95 off. Teams tended to turn the ball over more with Cooney on the court, but also got more offensive rebounds. Cooney being on the court didn't change where teams were shooting the ball, but opponents were shooting better at the rim when Cooney was on the court in Conference play, 57% with him on the court and 49% with him off. I suspect this is a combination of more offensive rebounds and better penetration vs. Gbinije being on the court.

Interestingly Cooney hitting 3 points altered how opposing teams shot. In conference play opposing teams were shooting 27% of shots at the rim, 36% 2point jumpers, 36% 3pointers when Cooney hit less than 3 3point shots. In games Cooney hit 3 or more, the breakdown was 28%/32%/40%. The expectation is that this would help the other team by reducing low percentage long jumpers, but it actually hurt, their 2point jumper shooting % fell from 37% to 39% while their %s on shots at the rim and 3pointers were identical. This meant a decrease in points per shot from 95 to 93.

 

[Cowtown]

Agree with the General, all players can penetrate sometimes, all defenders get beat sometimes. It's how basketball is played. But the whole idea of a zone D is that there's always help. If you force the ball into the middle, there's help; if you force to the corner or baseline there's a trap coming; and if you force to the sideline, I'm happy to let anyone shoot from there. Why else would you have to know which side is a players strong side? (hint: to take it away by forcing him the other way). But the idea that there's a 'lockdown' type defender anywhere out there is misguided at best.

 

[tee1222]

And it's a shame. Granted, like I said, I haven't watched the exhibition games, but our downfall in the tournament (assuming we make it), will be because we just can't score. This is my prediction, and it's not bold.

You're correct. It's not bold. And trust me, this is coming from a "realist".
But I just hope you are wrong and that we get better looks and shot selection is critical for this young team.

 

[Trueblue25]

Cooney's an inconsistent offensive player, and an adequate defender. He's not nearly the player that people on this board defend him to be. His starters minutes should've been in question last year.He shot 37% from 3 last year, but more often than not didn't show up when it mattered.

Decent college player, looking forward to BJ's/Buss' development and Malachi's arrival.

 

[jordoo]

The defense at the top of our zone last year was a problem at times last year.

Rule 1- stop dribble penetration. It's no secret that to beat a zone, you need to get the ball into the paint by the FT line- every coach in America knows this, some more than others (Dixon is an example). When you let the ballhandler drive to the paint, the odds of the other team scoring are significantly increased--

- this leads to your center getting into foul trouble, which in our case with Rak, we've seen far too much
- obviously, when your center steps up, your forwards need to recover down by the block to avoid an easy dump down for a layup
- instinct kicks in for the guards on defense to react towards the ball to try to recover, thus turning their backs on open shooters at the 3 point line

All of this we saw last year. Obviously, plays like this will happen during a 40min game, because as General alluded to above, the other team is going to score. It's a matter of limiting good looks as much as possible. The issue for me was that some games it seemed our guard defense up top was very porous, and when it's porous, it cascades down.

Just my 2 cents.

All that being said, the last thing I'm worried about is our defense. The glaring issue is shooting, just like last year.

I agree in general but there are players that we game plan not to give any 3's to even at the expense of them driving bye.

 

[jordoo]

Agree with the General, all players can penetrate sometimes, all defenders get beat sometimes. It's how basketball is played. But the whole idea of a zone D is that there's always help. If you force the ball into the middle, there's help; if you force to the corner or baseline there's a trap coming; and if you force to the sideline, I'm happy to let anyone shoot from there. Why else would you have to know which side is a players strong side? (hint: to take it away by forcing him the other way). But the idea that there's a 'lockdown' type defender anywhere out there is misguided at best.

I think having built in help is one of the reasons JB plays zone but m2m has styles and built in help per style as well as switching. The idea of the zone is to get players doing things they don't usually do and make teams settle for low percentage shots, preferable long low percentage shots. We have had to stretch the zone as more and more college teams have been able to but multiple shooters on the court. Still as General20 said and you agreed with, any defense can and will get beaten especially by good penetration and passing.

 

[OttoMets]

And it's a shame. Granted, like I said, I haven't watched the exhibition games, but our downfall in the tournament (assuming we make it), will be because we just can't score. This is my prediction, and it's not bold.

That's a safe bet. Historically, with a couple exceptions, our final game features a hail of missed shots, conservative offense, and a long scoring draught.

Most of our teams get better defensively as the year goes on. Improvement doesn't seem to occur at the same rate on offense (not, at least, relative to our peers).

 

[Ghost]

It's a cycle of extreme takes. Some people think he's awful. That brings out in equal force the people that defend him at every turn. Which prompts the other crowd to post again how bad they think he is. Which brings another round of Cooney apologists.

And so on.

lol...pretty accurate. There is a trend that when players become lightning rods on the board, for some reason their defensive prowess grows in equal proportion to their offensive struggles. Cooney is fine on defense though, and still holding off on judging him till the real games start.

 

[pearl31]

how does he have a reputation with this forum as great defender? He constantly gets beat either into the lane at the foul line or on the wing forcing the center to move way up the lane or the forward to leave the corner offensive player. I know he got some steals last year (at BC he got a bunch) but his constant inability to keep players from breaking him down and collapsing the entire defense is frustrating. Yet on this forum when he's in cold shooting slump everyone says we need his defense so we have no choice but for him to keep playing. Watch Patterson play his spot, much better defender, doesn't allow penetration into the zone & has a knack for getting loose balls. Cooney lovers please don't think I'm saying he isn't a D1 player or shouldn't be starting but notice how smart coaches like Carlton's last week always attack the zone from Cooneys side when driving into the lane.

so this needed its own thread, huh? couldn't have just posted in any of the 17 other Cooney-bashing threads Oh Lord

 

[igor]

how does he have a reputation with this forum as great defender? He constantly gets beat either into the lane at the foul line or on the wing forcing the center to move way up the lane or the forward to leave the corner offensive player. I know he got some steals last year (at BC he got a bunch) but his constant inability to keep players from breaking him down and collapsing the entire defense is frustrating. Yet on this forum when he's in cold shooting slump everyone says we need his defense so we have no choice but for him to keep playing. Watch Patterson play his spot, much better defender, doesn't allow penetration into the zone & has a knack for getting loose balls. Cooney lovers please don't think I'm saying he isn't a D1 player or shouldn't be starting but notice how smart coaches like Carlton's last weellk always attack the zone from Cooneys side when driving into the lane.

they love jb and need some reason to justify his playing major minutes/ jb has their backs. he'll start a campaign to discredit Patterson or jerk him out after a miss. his ego is bigger than cny

 

[DoctorBombay]

Cooney is about "great expectations", IMO.
He's seemingly too talented as an athlete to simply be a catch-n-shoot role player. The kid has hops, is a good passer, and when he's on, absolutely deadly as a shooter. He seems to be limiting himself, or perhaps his role on this team is limiting him, to simply being a Reggie Miller-esque type player, ie; constant motion and jacking up threes.
(I'm not suggesting he's anywhere near what Reggie was, btw).
The frustration of seeing this now one-dimensional player struggling to do the one thing he's designated to do, is what brings out the Cooney-bashing.
He "should" be better and more advanced than what we've seen so far- and based on these 2 exhibitions performances (obviously not a fair measure), many fans like myself are getting nervous. JMHO