Cuse hoops -- the past 25 years

[billsin01]

I was thinking about Hak and GMac for some reason the other day and thinking -- will we ever see guys who bring that much to the program ever again? Seems unlikely. It's pretty hard to imagine another Melo, for that matter. A guy who puts you on his back and brings a title to your front door. Not impossible, but pretty tough.

Anyway, that thought then spurred the thought that we're about 25 years removed from the first golden age of Cuse hoops in my lifetime (can't really speak for things pre-Pearl) -- which I would define as ending around '92 with the graduation of Dave Johnson. So that stretch goes from early 80s with Pearl through the 92 team that featured the final link to that era with Dave Johnson. Then we're looking at the following 25 years, which takes into account the 08-14 second golden era.

So I got to thinking about grouping these guys in terms of most valuable to the program and then a few other categories with the idea of actually putting together a five that roughly correlates to the five positions on the floor (a center, two Fs and two Gs). Anyway, here goes, for the past 25 years:

Most Valuable to the program
First Team
Carmelo
Carmelo gets his own team b/c he's such a rarity. He had some help but the dude brings a title home and then goes on to put up 25,000+ points in the NBA. He's got his own category b/c I dont' think anyone else in this team even came close to DC's, sherm's, Raf's or Siekely's nba numbers, which aren't even close to Melo's.

Second Team
Gmac
Moten
Wallace
Warrick
Etan

The first four are tough to argue but Etan is close to a gimme here as well. Numbers improved every year, a two-way player and a guy who put together a solid NBA career. Only guy I would even consider as close to this group was maybe J-Hart, particularly with his 9-year NBA run, but not really.

The All-Early Departure Teams
First Team
Melo

Second Team
Flynn
Dion
Grant
Wes Johnson
Fab

Johnson is an interesting guy b/c he was super efficient, filled the stat sheet in nearly every category, wasn't ball-dominant and has had one of the better nba careers in this era (along with Jason Hart and Dion). Waiters' numbers weren't amazing but he was a stud and one of the best creators we had. Flynn over MCW and Ennis is an interesting call. I can see it any way. MCW struggled to shoot but has a final four and played on a great team as a frosh as well. Ennis had the 25-0 start and simply never turned the ball over. Tough call. McCullough, Lydon, Richardson, Greene ... solid but not in this mix, IMO.

All-What Could Have Been Team (guys who came here but didn't work out for one reason or another)
Edelin
Devendorf
Joseph
Lydon
Onuaku

I'm obviously all over the board here, but Edelin is a no-brainer. Loved his game. Sucked it didn't work out. Devendorf was great but immature -- the Devo that seems to have found himself now probably wishes he could play it over again from a team perspective. Joseph was scintilating as a sophomore. Thought he was a complete stud slashing and shooting. Full package. Back issues seemed to be an issue. The fact he never averaged 15 ppg is crazy, IMO, he was a guy that could have been a 20 ppg type. Lydon just had such a strange sophomore year. Love the kid and it still bothers me that we couldn't seem to figure out how to use him. Onuaku's knees -- healthy, he's a potential nba guy or at least completely dominant college force.

All-Under Rated All-Stars
Pace
Rautins
Fair
RJ
Onuaku

Pace wasn’t a PG so I cheated but he could play basically anywhere and had a really underrated attribute — he knew exactly what he was as a player. Rautins in my opinion was among the best we’ve ever had at the top of the zone and while he was an excellent shooter, his passing was a serious weapon as well. Fair is just so solid — not an elite no. 1 option but you’re winning 30+ if he’s your no. 3 guy. RJ wasn’t super athletic but how much would you kill for four years of a player like that now? Onuaku was slowed by injuries a bit but he was a force offensively underneath. Interesting that most of these guys were on the 09-10 team. And I’d argue scoop is a candidate here as well.

 

[Waltdods]

I
All-What Could Have Been Team (guys who came here but didn't work out for one reason or another)
Edelin
Devendorf
Joseph
Lydon
Onuaku


All-Under Rated All-Stars
Pace
Rautins
Fair
RJ
Onuaku

Fun post.

One name to add to each of these last two lists:

Winfred Walton for the what could have been. (The couple years surrounding the cuse-is-in-the-house actually has a lot of interesting what-ifs. Michael Lloyd could also make this list, although that obviously turned out well. I loved rock Lloyd too, though he probably wasn’t good enough to merit consideration here.)

And demetris Nichols for the under-rated all-stars. His 07 season is probably the most underrated year of any Syracuse player. He played on crappy teams, was admittedly bad as an underclass man, and had a couple awful moments. But man he did some incredible things that senior year, on a team that started both josh Wright and Terrence Roberts.

(Roberts might also be a candidate for the what-might-have-been list, if you think his career was derailed by injuries rather than not-being-very-good)

 

[OttoMets]

Fun read. I don't quite agree with leaving Anthony ahead of the pack on "most valuable," not so much because I don't think he's valuable, but because I'm a firm believer that Boeheim never would have been around to recruit Carmelo Anthony to Syracuse if Moten and especially Wallace didn't stick it out to bridge the gap between sanctions and some decent teams later in the decade. There's an alternate universe in which Wallace decides not to honor his commitment and SU starts racking up .500 seasons in the mid-'90s and Boeheim decides to hang it up. If anyone's the singularly most valuable SU player in the last 25, I think Wallace is the guy.

Similarly, I'd take Hart over Etan - while anyone could envision decent teams from 1997-2000 without Etan, I shudder to think what would have happened without the sometimes-maddening Hart on those teams. Actually, after seeing mediocre point guards for the last few years, it's easy for us to guess at what 1997 and 1998 would've looked like if Hart had bailed for UCLA.

Interesting points about Devendorf (far from my favorite player but someone who with four focused years really could've made a run at Moten's scoring record) and especially Kris Joseph, who completely plateaued and even regressed after, in my memory at least, he hit his head on the court against Cincinnati early in his junior year. Telling, too, was a quote from him about the clean living he found when he became a Celtic - something like "It's amazing how much more energy I have now that I'm not staying up all night playing video games." For a very likable guy, I'd heard he wasn't the hardest worker on the team his last couple years at SU. That probably didn't help his development.

 

[billsin01]

Fun post.

One name to add to each of these last two lists:

Winfred Walton for the what could have been. (The couple years surrounding the cuse-is-in-the-house actually has a lot of interesting what-ifs. Michael Lloyd could also make this list, although that obviously turned out well. I loved rock Lloyd too, though he probably wasn’t good enough to merit consideration here.)

And demetris Nichols for the under-rated all-stars. His 07 season is probably the most underrated year of any Syracuse player. He played on crappy teams, was admittedly bad as an underclass man, and had a couple awful moments. But man he did some incredible things that senior year, on a team that started both josh Wright and Terrence Roberts.

(Roberts might also be a candidate for the what-might-have-been list, if you think his career was derailed by injuries rather than not-being-very-good)

Yeah, thought of all of those guys at some point. Walton I didn't include b/c he never actually made it, right? Both Lloyds are possible especially since the 'what could have been' category is defined about as broadly as humanly possible. I actually had Nichols on the underrated group but he's hard to figure. His senior season was so good it's hard to argue that we don't really appreciate it enough. Yet he struggled so much in his first two years and was underwhelming as a junior. I'm not sure he's really that underrated.

Roberts is interesting but I'm not sure he ever quite had the 'feel' to be as good offensively as his skill level suggested he could be.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I was thinking about Hak and GMac for some reason the other day and thinking -- will we ever see guys who bring that much to the program ever again? Seems unlikely. It's pretty hard to imagine another Melo, for that matter. A guy who puts you on his back and brings a title to your front door. Not impossible, but pretty tough.

Anyway, that thought then spurred the thought that we're about 25 years removed from the first golden age of Cuse hoops in my lifetime (can't really speak for things pre-Pearl) -- which I would define as ending around '92 with the graduation of Dave Johnson. So that stretch goes from early 80s with Pearl through the 92 team that featured the final link to that era with Dave Johnson. Then we're looking at the following 25 years, which takes into account the 08-14 second golden era.

So I got to thinking about grouping these guys in terms of most valuable to the program and then a few other categories with the idea of actually putting together a five that roughly correlates to the five positions on the floor (a center, two Fs and two Gs). Anyway, here goes, for the past 25 years:

Most Valuable to the program
First Team
Carmelo
Carmelo gets his own team b/c he's such a rarity. He had some help but the dude brings a title home and then goes on to put up 25,000+ points in the NBA. He's got his own category b/c I dont' think anyone else in this team even came close to DC's, sherm's, Raf's or Siekely's nba numbers, which aren't even close to Melo's.

Second Team
Gmac
Moten
Wallace
Warrick
Etan

The first four are tough to argue but Etan is close to a gimme here as well. Numbers improved every year, a two-way player and a guy who put together a solid NBA career. Only guy I would even consider as close to this group was maybe J-Hart, particularly with his 9-year NBA run, but not really.

The All-Early Departure Teams
First Team
Melo

Second Team
Flynn
Dion
Grant
Wes Johnson
Fab

Johnson is an interesting guy b/c he was super efficient, filled the stat sheet in nearly every category, wasn't ball-dominant and has had one of the better nba careers in this era (along with Jason Hart and Dion). Waiters' numbers weren't amazing but he was a stud and one of the best creators we had. Flynn over MCW and Ennis is an interesting call. I can see it any way. MCW struggled to shoot but has a final four and played on a great team as a frosh as well. Ennis had the 25-0 start and simply never turned the ball over. Tough call. McCullough, Lydon, Richardson, Greene ... solid but not in this mix, IMO.

All-What Could Have Been Team (guys who came here but didn't work out for one reason or another)
Edelin
Devendorf
Joseph
Lydon
Onuaku

I'm obviously all over the board here, but Edelin is a no-brainer. Loved his game. Sucked it didn't work out. Devendorf was great but immature -- the Devo that seems to have found himself now probably wishes he could play it over again from a team perspective. Joseph was scintilating as a sophomore. Thought he was a complete stud slashing and shooting. Full package. Back issues seemed to be an issue. The fact he never averaged 15 ppg is crazy, IMO, he was a guy that could have been a 20 ppg type. Lydon just had such a strange sophomore year. Love the kid and it still bothers me that we couldn't seem to figure out how to use him. Onuaku's knees -- healthy, he's a potential nba guy or at least completely dominant college force.

All-Under Rated All-Stars
Pace
Rautins
Fair
RJ
Onuaku

Pace wasn’t a PG so I cheated but he could play basically anywhere and had a really underrated attribute — he knew exactly what he was as a player. Rautins in my opinion was among the best we’ve ever had at the top of the zone and while he was an excellent shooter, his passing was a serious weapon as well. Fair is just so solid — not an elite no. 1 option but you’re winning 30+ if he’s your no. 3 guy. RJ wasn’t super athletic but how much would you kill for four years of a player like that now? Onuaku was slowed by injuries a bit but he was a force offensively underneath. Interesting that most of these guys were on the 09-10 team. And I’d argue scoop is a candidate here as well.

When I first read the thread title I thought it said CuseTroop the last 25 years. It's a good post but I can't help be disappointing.

 

[billsin01]

Fun read. I don't quite agree with leaving Anthony ahead of the pack on "most valuable," not so much because I don't think he's valuable, but because I'm a firm believer that Boeheim never would have been around to recruit Carmelo Anthony to Syracuse if Moten and especially Wallace didn't stick it out to bridge the gap between sanctions and some decent teams later in the decade. There's an alternate universe in which Wallace decides not to honor his commitment and SU starts racking up .500 seasons in the mid-'90s and Boeheim decides to hang it up. If anyone's the singularly most valuable SU player in the last 25, I think Wallace is the guy.

Similarly, I'd take Hart over Etan - while anyone could envision decent teams from 1997-2000 without Etan, I shudder to think what would have happened without the sometimes-maddening Hart on those teams. Actually, after seeing mediocre point guards for the last few years, it's easy for us to guess at what 1997 and 1998 would've looked like if Hart had bailed for UCLA.

Interesting points about Devendorf (far from my favorite player but someone who with four focused years really could've made a run at Moten's scoring record) and especially Kris Joseph, who completely plateaued and even regressed after, in my memory at least, he hit his head on the court against Cincinnati early in his junior year. Telling, too, was a quote from him about the clean living he found when he became a Celtic - something like "It's amazing how much more energy I have now that I'm not staying up all night playing video games." For a very likable guy, I'd heard he wasn't the hardest worker on the team his last couple years at SU. That probably didn't help his development.

Interesting stuff on Joseph. I had chalked his plateau/regression up to injury but I'm sure motor could have been a factor as well. Good player but I would have bet a lot of money on him being a complete stud after that sophomore season ... especially if you told me he would add a solid outside shot.

Hart is a tough omission b/c as you point out, it would have been very difficult to replace him. I just think he was one of those guys who is among the better players we had because he was solid in several areas (decent scorer, decent shooter, decent facilitator) and outstanding in one (excellent defender), but not at the top because he wasn't there for the wild team success that the 08-14 crew was (not really his fault, per se) and he wasn't really good in multiple areas. I gave the edge to Etan (and I was trying to keep it looking like an actual team with positions, sort of) because he was such a force as a shot blocker who could avoid foul trouble and yet he still was probably the third-best scoring threat we had at the C position in this timeframe (Onuaku and Otis Hill. Maybe Rak but he couldn't buy a bucket for three of four years). Also, his 9.3 rpg as a senior is the third highest total in this time frame behind only Melo and Rick Jackson's senior year. That's a pretty crazy resume.

Both guys are great players regardless. Interesting that their careers coincided being that Etan is our leading shot blocker in school history by a mile (424 for Thomas, 327 for Bouie) and J-Hart is the same in steals by nearly 60 (Hart 329 to scoop 274 -- and who had scoop at no. 2 all time? I didn't see that coming).

 

[billsin01]

Fun read. I don't quite agree with leaving Anthony ahead of the pack on "most valuable," not so much because I don't think he's valuable, but because I'm a firm believer that Boeheim never would have been around to recruit Carmelo Anthony to Syracuse if Moten and especially Wallace didn't stick it out to bridge the gap between sanctions and some decent teams later in the decade. There's an alternate universe in which Wallace decides not to honor his commitment and SU starts racking up .500 seasons in the mid-'90s and Boeheim decides to hang it up. If anyone's the singularly most valuable SU player in the last 25, I think Wallace is the guy.

Similarly, I'd take Hart over Etan - while anyone could envision decent teams from 1997-2000 without Etan, I shudder to think what would have happened without the sometimes-maddening Hart on those teams. Actually, after seeing mediocre point guards for the last few years, it's easy for us to guess at what 1997 and 1998 would've looked like if Hart had bailed for UCLA.

Interesting points about Devendorf (far from my favorite player but someone who with four focused years really could've made a run at Moten's scoring record) and especially Kris Joseph, who completely plateaued and even regressed after, in my memory at least, he hit his head on the court against Cincinnati early in his junior year. Telling, too, was a quote from him about the clean living he found when he became a Celtic - something like "It's amazing how much more energy I have now that I'm not staying up all night playing video games." For a very likable guy, I'd heard he wasn't the hardest worker on the team his last couple years at SU. That probably didn't help his development.

As for Melo vs. Wallace, I can see the argument for Wallace. I just think Melo's one of those players you see once in a generation. I guess the question is -- could JB have eventually weathered the sanctions storm without Wallace? I don't know. Maybe not, as you suggest. But then with Melo, dude comes in dominates from day 1, really and caps it off with a national title. Then he goes on to the NBA and puts himself on pace to potentially become a top-10 or top-15 all-time scorer. Didn't have the wins you'd like, but still, that's crazy. AND he donates money for the Melo Center, which helps lead to the second golden era of cuse hoops in that 08-14 span. That's a tough resume to argue with.

 

[Waltdods]

Yeah, thought of all of those guys at some point. Walton I didn't include b/c he never actually made it, right? Both Lloyds are possible especially since the 'what could have been' category is defined about as broadly as humanly possible. I actually had Nichols on the underrated group but he's hard to figure. His senior season was so good it's hard to argue that we don't really appreciate it enough. Yet he struggled so much in his first two years and was underwhelming as a junior. I'm not sure he's really that underrated.

Roberts is interesting but I'm not sure he ever quite had the 'feel' to be as good offensively as his skill level suggested he could be.

Yea, I agree with you on Roberts. I think ultimately he just wasn't that skilled, and even if he hadn't gotten hurt his ceiling wasn't particularly high.

You're right on Nichols, but I do think he gets left out a lot when people are thinking of Syracuse stars. I have yet to find anyone to agree with this take, but I believe it: Nichols was as good in '07 as Wes Johnson was in '10. And Johnson is seen as a near-all-timer and Nichols is never even talked about on these lists. Nichols and Johnson in some sense had opposite experiences at SU - Johnson could not have fell into a better situation, while Nichols' team was stocked with weird fits, not-very-good ballplayers, and guys a year or two away. Josh Wright started 27 games. Matt Gorman started 5. (I still don't remember that even after looking it up.)

 

[billsin01]

I was thinking about Hak and GMac for some reason the other day and thinking -- will we ever see guys who bring that much to the program ever again? Seems unlikely. It's pretty hard to imagine another Melo, for that matter. A guy who puts you on his back and brings a title to your front door. Not impossible, but pretty tough.

Anyway, that thought then spurred the thought that we're about 25 years removed from the first golden age of Cuse hoops in my lifetime (can't really speak for things pre-Pearl) -- which I would define as ending around '92 with the graduation of Dave Johnson. So that stretch goes from early 80s with Pearl through the 92 team that featured the final link to that era with Dave Johnson. Then we're looking at the following 25 years, which takes into account the 08-14 second golden era.

So I got to thinking about grouping these guys in terms of most valuable to the program and then a few other categories with the idea of actually putting together a five that roughly correlates to the five positions on the floor (a center, two Fs and two Gs). Anyway, here goes, for the past 25 years:

Most Valuable to the program
First Team
Carmelo
Carmelo gets his own team b/c he's such a rarity. He had some help but the dude brings a title home and then goes on to put up 25,000+ points in the NBA. He's got his own category b/c I dont' think anyone else in this team even came close to DC's, sherm's, Raf's or Siekely's nba numbers, which aren't even close to Melo's.

Second Team
Gmac
Moten
Wallace
Warrick
Etan

The first four are tough to argue but Etan is close to a gimme here as well. Numbers improved every year, a two-way player and a guy who put together a solid NBA career. Only guy I would even consider as close to this group was maybe J-Hart, particularly with his 9-year NBA run, but not really.

The All-Early Departure Teams
First Team
Melo

Second Team
Flynn
Dion
Grant
Wes Johnson
Fab

Johnson is an interesting guy b/c he was super efficient, filled the stat sheet in nearly every category, wasn't ball-dominant and has had one of the better nba careers in this era (along with Jason Hart and Dion). Waiters' numbers weren't amazing but he was a stud and one of the best creators we had. Flynn over MCW and Ennis is an interesting call. I can see it any way. MCW struggled to shoot but has a final four and played on a great team as a frosh as well. Ennis had the 25-0 start and simply never turned the ball over. Tough call. McCullough, Lydon, Richardson, Greene ... solid but not in this mix, IMO.

All-What Could Have Been Team (guys who came here but didn't work out for one reason or another)
Edelin
Devendorf
Joseph
Lydon
Onuaku

I'm obviously all over the board here, but Edelin is a no-brainer. Loved his game. Sucked it didn't work out. Devendorf was great but immature -- the Devo that seems to have found himself now probably wishes he could play it over again from a team perspective. Joseph was scintilating as a sophomore. Thought he was a complete stud slashing and shooting. Full package. Back issues seemed to be an issue. The fact he never averaged 15 ppg is crazy, IMO, he was a guy that could have been a 20 ppg type. Lydon just had such a strange sophomore year. Love the kid and it still bothers me that we couldn't seem to figure out how to use him. Onuaku's knees -- healthy, he's a potential nba guy or at least completely dominant college force.

All-Under Rated All-Stars
Pace
Rautins
Fair
RJ
Onuaku

Pace wasn’t a PG so I cheated but he could play basically anywhere and had a really underrated attribute — he knew exactly what he was as a player. Rautins in my opinion was among the best we’ve ever had at the top of the zone and while he was an excellent shooter, his passing was a serious weapon as well. Fair is just so solid — not an elite no. 1 option but you’re winning 30+ if he’s your no. 3 guy. RJ wasn’t super athletic but how much would you kill for four years of a player like that now? Onuaku was slowed by injuries a bit but he was a force offensively underneath. Interesting that most of these guys were on the 09-10 team. And I’d argue scoop is a candidate here as well.

I thought of one other team I wanted to add:

All-Senior Season Team (Guys who made a big leap as seniors)
Z Sims
Nichols
Damone Brown
Rick Jackson
Rak

A stretch to put Brown at the 3 but these guys had phenomenal jumps as seniors. Deserve to be mentioned somewhere.

 

[billsin01]

Yea, I agree with you on Roberts. I think ultimately he just wasn't that skilled, and even if he hadn't gotten hurt his ceiling wasn't particularly high.

You're right on Nichols, but I do think he gets left out a lot when people are thinking of Syracuse stars. I have yet to find anyone to agree with this take, but I believe it: Nichols was as good in '07 as Wes Johnson was in '10. And Johnson is seen as a near-all-timer and Nichols is never even talked about on these lists. Nichols and Johnson in some sense had opposite experiences at SU - Johnson could not have fell into a better situation, while Nichols' team was stocked with weird fits, not-very-good ballplayers, and guys a year or two away. Josh Wright started 27 games. Matt Gorman started 5. (I still don't remember that even after looking it up.)

No, these are great points on Nichols. He’s tough to rank b/c can you really kill a guy for taking some time to hit his ceiling? Wes grabbing 8.5 rpg is huge but the fact remains that Nichols was a badass as a senior.