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Message: [QUOTE="SWC75, post: 5026709, member: 289"] Based on Net points per 40 minutes and other stats per 40 minutes, these are the most similar SU players from the Carrier Dome Era to the players we've watched this year: [B]JJ Starling as a sophomore 34.4m 15.4p 3.7r 2.2a 1.0s 0.2b = 22.5+ 7.3mfg 0.6mft 2.0to 1.5pf = 11.4- = 11.1NP 7.5OE, 3.6FG[/B] Marty Headd as a senior 29.4m 16.2p 2.6r 2.5a 1.3s 0.0b 22.6+ 5.6mfg 0.4mft 2.1to 2.9pf 11.0- = 11.6NP 10.2OE 1.4FG Matt Roe as a sophomore 24.3m 15.2p 4.0r 3.2a 0.8s 0.1b 23.3+ 7.0mfg 0.4mft 1.6to 3.2pf 12.2- = 11.1NP 7.8OE 3.3FG Brandon Triche as a sophomore 28.8m 15.5p 3.7r 4.0a 1.1s 0.1b 24.4+ 7.1mfg 0.6mft 2.9to 2.7pf 13.3- = 11.1NP 7.8OE 3.3FG Trevor Cooney as a sophomore 32.1m 15.0p 2.6r 1.4a 2.3s 0.1b = 21.4+ 7.2mfg 0.4mft 1.0to 1.3pf = 9.9- = 11.5NP 7.4OE 4.1FG Tyus Battle as a freshman 30.7M 14.8P 2.8R 2.2A 1.7S 0.3B 21.8+ 6.4MFG 0.7MFT 1.5TO 2.5PF 11.1- = 10.7NP 7.7OE 3.0FG Marty Headd was not a versatile player and his value was almost completely in his shooting. Brandon Triche always considered himself as a point guard and got more assists than JJ. Tyus was a bigger player and better on defense. I was surprised Matt Roe had more assists. He didn’t drive to the basket. Cooney didn’t drive either and was better on defense. I think JJ is closest to being a smaller Battle. There’s never a perfect match. [B]Judah Mintz as a sophomore 34.0m 22.2p 3.8r 5.2a 2.5s 0.1b = 33.8+ 8.9mfg 2.3mft 3.5to 2.6pf = 17.3- = 16.5NP, 11.0OE, 5.5FG [/B] Stevie Thompson as a senior 34.6m 20.6p 6.0r 3.5a 1.7s 0.2b +32.0 8.0mfg 3.5mft 2.8to 2.1pf -16.4 = 15.6NP 9.1OE 6.5FG Adrian Autry as a senior 35.7m 18.7p 5.4r 6.8a 1.8s 0.4b +33.1 8.1mfg 1.0mft 4.3to 2.9pf -16.3 = 16.8NP 9.6OE 7.2FG Jonny Flynn as a sophomore 37.3m 18.7p 2.9r 7.2a 1.5s 0.2b 30.5+ 7.2mfg 1.4mft 3.6to 1.6pf 13.6- = 16.7NP 10.1 OE 6.6FG Dion Waiters as a sophomore 24.1m 21.0p 3.8r 4.1a 3.0s 0.5b = 32.4+ 8.4mfg 1.4mft 2.2to 3.1pf = 15.1- = 17.3NP 11.2OE 6.1FG Elijah Hughes as a junior 36.7m 20.7p 5.4r 3.7a 1.3s 0.9b = +32.0 9.1mfg 1.1mft 2.5to 2.0pf = -14.7 = 17.3NP 10.5OE 4.9FG There’s really no match for Judah, especially all of his acting to get foul calls, (hey! It works!). Stevie Thompson is also completely unique. He was a sky-walker who filled lanes on the break, not a half-court penetrator and, as we found out in his senior year, not a point guard. Judah’s head coach is a decent match, at least as a senior when he score those 30 points after halftime against Missouri. But he wasn’t as good as a freshman and sophomore. Jonny Flynn was and, even though he was a ‘scoring point guard’, he was a better, (or at least a more frequent) passer. (What would the 2010 team have bene like with him?) Dion wasn’t a point guard, (He, Brandon Triche and Scoop Jardine were really all combo guards), but he’s a good statistical match. Elijah Hughes was a 2 guard and a better shot but there are also similarities in their numbers. I think I might choose Dion as the best match. [B]Maliq Brown as a sophomore 29.6m 12.9p 9.7r 2.5a 3.0s 1.2b = 29.3+ 2.3mfg 0.7mft 1.7to 4.1pf = 8.8- = 20.5NP 9.9OE 10.6FG[/B] Danny Schayes as a senior 32.6m 17.9p 10.3r 2.3a 0.6s 2.7b 33.8+ 4.3mfg 1.3mft 3.4to 4.5pf 12.3- = NP: 20.3 OE: 12.3 FG: 8.0 Derrick Coleman as a freshman 30.6m 15.6p 11.4r 1.5a 1.5s 2.3b 32.3+ 4.7mfg 1.7mft 2.3to 4.1pf 12.8- = 19.5NP 8.1OE 11.4FG LeRon Ellis as a senior 29.0m 15.3p 10.6r 1.9a 2.7s 3.4b +33.9 5.9mfg 2.0mft 1.9to 4.7pf -14.5 = 19.4NP 7.4OE 12.0FG Etan Thomas as a sophomore 28.8m 15.7p 9.1r 0.6a 1.1s 5.5b +32.0 3.6mfg 2.7mft 2.3to 3.9pf -12.5 = 19.5NP 9.4OE 10.1FG Rick Jackson as a junior 26.3m 14.8p 10.7r 2.6a 1.6s 3.0b 32.7+ 4.5mfg 1.9mft 3.0to 3.0pf 12.4- = 20.3NP 8.4OE 11.9FG Don’t laugh. Danny Schayes was a high post center who could pass. If Maliq works on that jumper, his scoring could go up toward Danny’s. Coleman would develop into a monster after his freshman year but he was in Maliq’s orbit that first year. Ellis is a good match. I didn’t realize that he was good at making steals, (2.7 to Maliq’s 3.0). Etan Thomas wasn’t much of a passer but was a much better shot blocker than Maliq. He and Rick Jackson were physically stronger than Maliq. Nobody pushed them around. I didn’t realize Rick was a good passer, (except his two man game with Arinze, (2.6a vs. 2.5 for Maliq). I think I might have to go with Rick as the best match but Maliq is another unique player. [B]Chris Bell as a sophomore 23.8m 17.7p 3.5r 1.0a 0.8s 1.0b = 29.3+ 8.1mfg 0.3mft 1.2to 2.7pf = 12.3- = 11.7NP 9.3OE 2.4FG[/B] Rafael Addison as a freshman 18.5m 18.3p 6.9r 2.6a 1.3s 0.7b 29.8+ 7.1mfg 1.5mft 2.8to 4.6pf 16.0- = 13.8np 9.7oe 4.1fg Matt Roe as a sophomore 24.3m 15.2p 4.0r 3.2a 0.8s 0.1b 23.3+ 7.0mfg 0.4mft 1.6to 3.2pf 12.2- = 11.1NP 7.8OE 3.3FG Preston Shumpert as a freshman 14.3m 15.1p 6.7r 1.6a 1.3s 0.5b +25.2 7.8mfg 0.9mft 2.5to 2.2pf -13.4 = 11.8NP 6.4OE 5.4FG Demetris Nichols as a junior 33.3m 16.0p 7.0r 1.7a 1.5s 1.1b 27.3+ 7.6mfg 1.0mft 2.2to 3.3pf 14.1- = 13.2NP 7.4OE 5.8FG James Southerland as a sophomore 14.1m 13.7p 6.4r 1.3a 1.4s 1.6b 24.4+ 7.0mfg 0.3mft 0.6to 3.5pf 11.4- = 13.0NP 6.4OE 6.6FG The numbers are a perfect match but these are the guys I think of in terms of passing the ‘look test’ to what we started to see from Chris at the end of the season. Nichols is the most interesting match because he struggled his first two years and was though to be a ‘bust’ but them became a major shooters and scorer for us. Chris seems on a similar schedule except he started to blossom late in his sophomore year. I think he could explode into a major star next year. But at this stage, Addison was a better rebounder, passer and defensive player. Even Matt Roe was rebounding and passing it better. Shumpert, Nichols and Southerland rebounded it better. I guess Roe might be the best match as sophomores but the others will be more like the junior Chris Bell. [B]Justin Taylor as a sophomore 23.3m 8.6p 6.8r 1.7a 1.2s 0.4b = 18.7+ 5.7mfg 0.6mft 1.5to 2.0pf = 9.8- = 8.9NP 2.3OE 6.6FG[/B] Michael Hopkins as a junior 26.9m 9.7p 5.8r 3.4a 2.2s 0.3b +21.4 3.8mfg 1.6mft 2.0to 5.6pf -13.0 = 8.4NP 4.3OE 4.1FG Tony Bland as a freshman 15.7m 11.3p 3.5r 4.1a 2.2s 0.6b +21.7 5.7mfg 1.3mft 3.7to 2.8pf -13.5 = 8.2NP 4.3OE 3.9FG Louis McCroskey as a sophomore 19.9m 11.2p 5.9r 2.4a 1.7s 0.1b 21.3+ 6.9mfg 1.2mft 2.4to 2.7pf 13.2- = 8.1NP 3.1OE 5.0FG Kris Joseph as a freshman 12.1m 10.1p 7.1r 1.5a 2.6s 0.7b 22.0+ 5.2mfg 2.7mft 2.4to 3.1pf 13.4- = 8.6NP 2.2OE 6.4FG Michael Gbinije as a sophomore 14.6m 9.3p 4.8r 3.3a 2.0s 0.6b = 20.0+ 4.6mfg 1.4mft 1.4to 4.5pf = 11.9- = 8.1NP 3.3OE 4.8FG Nobody here is quite like Justin Taylor, even if the numbers are similar. Justin came here with a reputation as a shooter but has been an offensive force in one game against a minor opponent, (two home we lost) last year. Now he’s lost so much confidence in his shot that even his lay-ups are short. He tries to make up for it by playing hard. He’s a muscular, strong kid who has helped us on the boards but as a small forward playing the power forward position, he’s been out-sided in the ACC games. Mike Hopkins was more of a guard who was on defensive overdrive, Bland a decent all-round player, McCrosky a great rebounder for a guard but not a great guard, (who caused problems off the court), Jospeh a smooth future star and Gbinije wound up playing the point for us. Maybe Bland is the best comparison – and he transferred out after his sophomore year. He did very well at San Diego State. [B]Quadir Copeland as a sophomore 22.3m 17.2p 8.3r 5.0a 2.6s 0.3b = 33.4+ 6.5mfg 2.1mft 3.6to 4.2pf = 16.4- = 17.0NP 8.6OE 8.4FG[/B] Todd Burgan as a senior 36.7m 19.2p 7.7r 3.6a 2.2s 0.2b +32.9 9.0mfg 1.6mft 3.2to 2.9pf -16.7 = 16.2NP 8.6OE 7.6FG Billy Edelin as a sophomore 33.1m 16.7p 5.1r 6.3a 1.6s 0.1b 29.8+ 6.1mfg 2.3mft 2.4to 2.1pf 12.9- = 16.9NP 8.3OE 8.6FG Josh Pace as a senior 33.3m 13.0p 6.0r 4.5a 1.8s 0.5b 25.8+ 4.5mfg 0.8mft 2.4to 1.9pf 9.6- = 16.2NP 7.7OE 8.5FG Paul Harris as a freshman 36.1m 16.0p 9.1r 3.7a 1.9s 0.9b 31.6+ 5.8mfg 2.0mft 3.7to 2.8pf 14.3- = 17.3NP 8.2OE 9.1FG Kris Joseph as a junior 27.8m 15.6p 8.0r 2.5a 2.0s 0.6b 28.7+ 5.4mfg 1.6mft 2.5to 2.6pf 12.1- = 16.6NP 8.6OE 8.0FG Quadir is still another unique player on a team full of them. Burgan and Joseph were not as aggressive driving to the basket. They let the game come to them more. Harris was a 6-4 power forward if there is such a thing in modern basketball. Pace drove into the lane but didn’t try to get to the basket or get fouled. He was smooth and let the ball float into the basket. Edelin seems like the best match but he had a slower, more deliberate style. Quadir doesn’t play with his back to the basket. [B]Kyle Cuffe as a sophomore 10.7m 11.9p 3.9r 1.9a 1.8s 0.8b = 20.3+ 6.6mfg 0.9mft 2.1to 5.6pf = 15.2- = 5.1NP 4.4OE 0.7FG[/B] Gene Waldron as a freshman 12.9m 13.1p 2.6r 3.9a 2.7s 0.7b 23.0+ 6.2mfg 1.0mft 5.7to 5.9pf 18.8- = NP: 4.2 OE: 5.9 FG: 0.7 Dave Johnson as a freshman 14.6m 11.5p 5.5r 2.7a 1.3s 0.3b 21.3+ 5.2mfg 2.4mft 1.8to 5.2pf 14.6- = 6.7NP 3.9OE 2.8FG Alan Griffin as a freshman 9.2m 10.4p 4.1r 3.8a 2.3s 0.1b +20.7 5.0mfg 1.9mft 3.5to 4.5pf -14.9 = 5.8NP 3.5OE 2.3FG James Thues as a freshman 7.7m 8.4p 2.4r 6.7a 2.6s 0.4b +20.5 4.1mfg 3.0mft 3.2to 4.1pf -14.4= 6.1NP 1.3OE 4.8FG Louie McCroskey as a freshman 12.7m 11.1p 6.2r 2.7a 2.1s 0.4b 22.5+ 8.2mfg 1.1mft 2.8to 3.9pf 16.0- = 6.5NP 2.9OE 3.6FG Note that all the comparisons are to freshman. Cuffe was a sophomore but like them, the issue is: what was his potential? How did those freshmen turn out? Waldron was something of a disappointment overall, save fore an amazing night when he scored 40 points in a high-scoring win over Iona. He was solid but never became the star we thought he could be and eventually gave way to Pearl Washington, who did. Dave Johnson was a great talent, an athletic leaper who for two years could not throw the ball in the ocean. But then he developed into a three point threat and became a top scorer. Cuffe looked like a great leaper in his high school highlight films but did not show that ability here, perhaps due to his injury problems. He wasn’t much of a shooter, either – until he hit three threes in a late game. Alan Griffin was never a great shooter but an under-rated athlete who scored out last triple double. Theus was a great defender who could play the point but could not shoot. McCrosky was more of a swing man and a very good rebounder. I’d pick Griffin as the best match – if Cuffe can develop into that kind of player – and get the chance to. [B]Benny Williams as a junior 17.1m 12.6p 9.3r 2.9a 2.2s 2.1b = 29.1+ 7.4mfg 1.6mft 2.7to 4.4pf = 16.1- = 13.0NP 3.6OE 9.4FG[/B] Todd Burgan as a sophomore 34.2m 14.1p 8.0r 2.7a 2.0s 0.5b +27.3 6.7mfg 1.8mft 2.4to 3.3pf -14.2 = 13.1NP 5.6OE 7.5FG Kueth Duany as a junior 30.8m 15.9p 6.9r 2.1a 1.9s 0.8b +27.6 7.3mfg 1.3mft 2.5to 3.2pf -14.3 = 13.3NP 7.3OE 6.0FG Rakeem Christmas as a sophomore 20.8m 9.8p 8.8r 0.4a 1.0s 3.5b = 23.5+ 3.7mfg 1.1mft 1.7to 4.8pf = 11.3- = 12.2NP 5.0OE 7.2FG Oshae Brissett as a sophomore 33.0m 15.1p 9.1r 2.2a 1.2s 1.0b = 28.6+ 8.1mfg 1.8mft 2.5to 2.5pf = 14.9- = 13.7NP 5.2OE 8.5FG Quincy Guerrier as a freshman 20.3m 13.5p 10.4r 1.2a 0.9s 1.5b = +27.5 4.8mfg 2.5mft 2.6to 5.1pf 15.0- = 12.5NP 6.2OE 6.3FG Burgan’s numbers are similar except that he played twice as many minutes and was making a steady year-to-year progression in his development. Kueth was an average offensive player who still scored more than Benny and a good all-rounder and defender. Rakeem was really a center who didn’t venture outside. Oshae was an interesting match and shows what might have happened to Benny if he had applied himself more. Quincy was three inches shorter and much stronger but he’s another guy JB wanted inside who preferred to jack up outside jumpers. He’s also in a better place than Benny now. Really, Benny was a productive player, (especially in the press this year) and we certainly missed him on the court down the stretch. His main problems were off the court. [B]Naheem McLeod as a junior 14.4m 10.7P 11.9r 0.2a 0.6s 5.3b = 28.7+ 2.6mfg 1.4mft 1.2to 2.2pf = 7.4- = 21.3NP 6.7OE 14.6FG[/B] Danny Schayes as a senior 32.6m 17.9p 10.3r 2.3a 0.6s 2.7b 33.8+ 4.3mfg 1.3mft 3.4to 4.5pf 12.3- = NP: 20.3 OE: 12.3 FG: 8.0 Derrick Coleman as a freshman 30.6m 15.6p 11.4r 1.5a 1.5s 2.3b 32.3+ 4.7mfg 1.7mft 2.3to 4.1pf 12.8- = 19.5NP 8.1OE 11.4FG LeRon Ellis as a senior 29.0m 15.3p 10.6r 1.9a 2.7s 3.4b +33.9 5.9mfg 2.0mft 1.9to 4.7pf -14.5 = 19.4NP 7.4OE 12.0FG Etan Thomas as a junior (His senior numbers are virtually identical) 27.7m 17.7p 10.6r 0.7a 1.2s 5.7b +35.9 4.0mfg 3.5mft 2.5to 4.0pf -14.0 = 21.9NP 10.2OE 11.7FG Rick Jackson as a junior 26.3m 14.8p 10.7r 2.6a 1.6s 3.0b 32.7+ 4.5mfg 1.9mft 3.0to 3.0pf 12.4- = 20.3NP 8.4OE 11.9FG Danny Schayes, in his time, had the physical stature of Naheem – I don’t recall him ever being less than the biggest player on the court. Defensively, he was mostly an obstacle rather than a sneaker-to-sneaker guy. The big difference was that Danny was an excellent jump shooter. Derrick wasn’t a center as a freshman but later became one I put him here because his numbers were somewhat similar. I like the LeRon Ellis comparison a lot. He wasn’t a great player but he knew how to use his size and it’s another close numbers match. Etan was smaller but a similar shot-blocker. Rick Jackson was a totally different player but again, the numbers are similar. I know of no player over the years whose numbers are more different than people’s perceptions than Naheem McCloud. That’s doesn’t mean that the criticisms weren’t valid. But he was far from the worthless player some think of him as. He as the fewest positives of any of these players but also the fewest negatives. People were frustrated he didn’t try to do more than he did. The lack of effort meant a lack of plays that showed up as bad in the box score. Then there was the fact that Naheem only played in three ACC games and only 30 minutes in those games so much of his playing time was against lesser opposition, (although we had some tough non-conference games). Finally, people are always going to expect more form a 7-4 player than they get. [B]Peter Carey as a sophomore 5.1m 5.1p 6.8r 0.6a 1.7s 1.1b = 15.3+ 5.6mfg 0.6mft 0.0to 10.1pf = 16.3- = -1.0NP -1.1OE -0.1FG[/B] Peter Wynne as a freshman 8.2m 8.3p 6.9r 3.2a 0.3s 1.2b 20.9+ 6.0mfg 3.2mft 4.0to 10.4pf 23.6- = NP: -2.7 OE: -0.9 FG: -1.8 Herman Harried as a freshman 6.6m 7.4p 8.9r 0.8a 0.5s 0.3b 17.9+ 6.8mfg 3.2mft 3.2to 5.0pf 18.2- = -0.3NP -2.6OE 2.3FG Dave Siock as a freshman 7.1m 3.7p 10.0r 3.0a 0.3s 0.7b 17.7+ 6.7mfg 1.3mft 3.0to 7.3pf 18.3- = -0.6NP -4.3OE 3.7FG Ethan Cole as a junior 6.1m 6.6p 8.1r 0.7a 0.4s 1.8b +17.6 4.4mfg 0.7mft 3.3to 11.0pf -19.4= -1.8NP 1.5OE -3.3FG Jalen Carey as a sophomore 11.5m 5.2p 10.4r 1.7a 1.7s 0.0b = +19.4 12.2mfg 5.2mft 5.2to 1.7pf 24.3- = -5.3NP -12.2OE 6.9FG This is it, folks: the six (recruited) SU players since 1980-81 who have averaged negative net points per 40 minutes of play in a season. The first five are big men. The 6th is a guard who couldn’t throw it in the ocean in the two games he played that year. The big men committed fouls at such a rate that they wouldn’t have been able to stay on the court very long even if JB or Red wanted to play them longer. None of the big men could score and they were only fair rebounders even though they played center or power forward. None of them were shot blockers. Wynne and Siock could pass the ball. They didn’t miss a lot of shots because they didn’t take a lot of shots, (or the coach would have yelled at them). Basically, the fouls swallowed their humble stat lines like Pacman. Harried, Siock and Cole stuck it out through their senior years, (Cole was a transfer from that basketball powerhouse, New Hampshire). Wynne and Carey left and never did much elsewhere. Harried and Siock were freshmen and got better but not a lot better. Carey basically is a freshman and has hardly played the game since Covid. Also, I think his skill set is more that of a forward than a center, which is where he’s being used. He could still turn out to be a good player but I suspect it will be for someone else at a lower level of competition. [B]Mounir Hima as a junior 3.4m 3.6p 5.5r 0.9a 0.0s 2.7b = 12.7+ 0.9mfg 0.0mft 0.9to 6.4pf = 8.2- = 4.5NP 2.7OE 6.4FG[/B] Richard Manning as a sophomore 12.5m 10.0p 6.9r 0.9a 0.8s 1.6b +20.2 5.5mfg 0.6mft 2.8to 5.6pf -14.5= 5.7NP 3.9OE.1.8FG Dave Siock as a junior 11.9m 5.4p 8.2r 1.5a 0.9s 1.3b +17.3 4.5mfg 0.3mft 1.6to 6.5pf -12.9 = 4.4NP 0.6OE 3.8FG Chuckie Gelatt as a freshman 9.3m 10.6p 8.4r 0.6a 2.4s 0.6b +22.6 7.1mfg 0.8mft 2.9to 6.3pf -17.1 = 5.5NP 2.7OE 2.8FG Bill Celuck as a senior 8.3m 9.1p 9.4r 1.4a 1.4s 1.1b +22.4 4.6mfg 1.6mft 3.9to 7.8pf -17.9 = 4.5NP 2.9OE 1.6FG Bourama Sidibie as a sophomore 8.6m 7.5p 10.5r 0.7a 2.0s 1.9b 22.6+ 3.0mfg 3.5mft 1.2to 9.3pf 17.0- = 5.6NP 1.0OE 4.6FG Mounir was much better as a sophomore, when he was much healthier: 7.4m 5.4p 9.4r 0.8a 1.4s 5.2b = 12.0+ 2.8mfg 0.4mft 1.2to 7.6pf = 12.0- = 10.2NP 2.0OE 8.0FG He had a reach as big as McLeod’s and once blocked 7 shots in 18 minutes against St. John’s. But whatever his injury was this year, he couldn’t get off the ground or play more than 2-3 minutes at a time. Perhaps the best comparison was to Bourama, who was also dealing with an injury and much better in other seasons. Manning and Siock were our consolation prizes for not getting Alonzo Mourning, who went to Georgetown. Manning had talent but was more like Peter Carey: too skinny. He later did well at Washington. Dave Siock had a thick, muscular body but lacked talent. Chucky Gelatt was a power forward who liked to jack up three pointers. He later did well at DePaul. Bill Celuck had Manning’s body and Siock’s talent. So, I'm guess that a game between this year's team and: C - LeRon Ellis as a senior, Bourama Sidibie as a sophomore, Ethan Cole as a junior - Rick Jackson as a junior, Matt Roe as a sophomore, Tony Bland as a freshman, Quincy Guerrier as a freshman G - Billy Edelin as a freshman, Tyus Battle as a freshman, Dion Waiters as a sophomore, Alan Griffin as a freshman ...would be pretty competitive. [/QUOTE]

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