ESPN Path to the Draft: #20 Syracuse

[KingOtis]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/85018/path-to-the-draft-no-20-syracuse

 

[TerryM]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/85018/path-to-the-draft-no-20-syracuse

That reads like a back handed kick to the teeth. Sadly it is reality as well.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

That's a pretty good assessment.

 

[jdubs30]

I hate when people bring this up. It's not our job to produce pro's, it's our job to win college games.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Medcalf wrote something right for once. Why shouldn't college basketball be preparing you for the pros? Isn't that what college is except these dudes are studying/playing hoops. I see both sides of the argument but I lean towards the side of it being ok to scrutinize a program for not developing more solid pro players.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Medcalf wrote something right for once. Why shouldn't college basketball be preparing you for the pros? Isn't that what college is except these dudes are studying/playing hoops. I see both sides of the argument but I lean towards the side of it being ok to scrutinize a program for not developing more pro players.

Well, the argument in that write up isn't that we haven't developed enough pros exactly, it's that the guys we have sent to the pros have done relatively little.

I think he's undervaluing the careers that Hart and Etan had though.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Well, the argument in that write up isn't that we haven't developed enough pros exactly, it's that the guys we have sent to the pros have done relatively little.

I think he's undervaluing the careers that Hart and Etan had though.

I get the article. Was referring to jdubs30's take. Agreed about Etan. Hart, eh...

 

[Canadian]

I think people have overvalued the talent that has played at SU

Besides Melo, Coleman, Wallace and Owens who were studs, the other players all had holes in their games

Douglas - not a great athlete, size issues
Warrick - tweener, not a great shooter
Greene - one and done, not time to develop his overall game at SU
Flynn - undersized, injury hampered pro career
W. Johnson - ball handling challenged
Thomas - offensively challenged, had a decent career
Hart - not a pure shooter, had a decent career
Moten - undersized for SF, too slow for SG
Fab Melo - TBD
Waiters - TBD
KrisJo - TBD
MCW - TBD

Rautins, Nichols, Brown, Mcrae, D. Johnson and Ellis were marginal NBA talents at best

You can see from the numbers that JB won with marginal talent after probation hit in the 1990's until Melo arrived in 2003. Besides Hart and Thomas, none of our players would be considered defensive players on the NBA level, which is a weakness associated with all SU players entering the draft.

Since the Flynn class arrived, better talent has been coming consistently to the hill and we are seeing more pro's as a result - we may move up this list in the coming years.

Why has Boeheim been able to win consistently with these players and have them play defence (albeight zone) which has not translated on the NBA level

That's why he is a HOFer

 

[jdubs30]

I get the article. Was referring to jdubs30's take. Agreed about Etan. Hart, eh...

I'm of the belief that a kid either has NBA talent or doesn't. Jonny Flynn would have been drafted whether he went to Syracuse or Rutgers. Kemba Walker would have been drafted whether he went to UConn or Seton Hall. Thaddeus Young would have been drafted whether hwe went to Georgia Tech or Georgia. It's 100% up to kid whether they make it to the league, I think it's ridiculous to say that Donte Greene or Wes Johnson would have had a more successful NBA career if they went to Duke, UNC or UConn.

If Wes Johnson was happy at ISU and stayed, he very likely breaks out the same way he did here.

You might get more exposure at SU than Rutgers, but if you have the talent and ability the scouts will find out.

Georgia Tech has more NBA players right now than Michigan State. Funny how no one ever brings up Izzo "not being able to produce NBA talent".

Coaching matters, and there's no comparison between Coach K and Mike Rice; but like I said, I think if an NBA scout thinks you have the talent you'll be fine.

 

[jdubs30]

Medcalf wrote something right for once. Why shouldn't college basketball be preparing you for the pros? Isn't that what college is except these dudes are studying/playing hoops. I see both sides of the argument but I lean towards the side of it being ok to scrutinize a program for not developing more solid pro players.

If a student majors in engineering and doesn't graduate, do you blame the school or the student?

I do think it's fair to scrutinize a bit, but to me it's not a big deal at all.

What matters is that kids are still coming here regardless of our "NBA reputation"

 

[sufandu]

I think people have overvalued the talent that has played at SU

Besides Melo, Coleman, Wallace and Owens who were studs, the other players all had holes in their games

Douglas - not a great athlete, size issues
Warrick - tweener, not a great shooter
Greene - one and done, not time to develop his overall game at SU
Flynn - undersized, injury hampered pro career
W. Johnson - ball handling challenged
Thomas - offensively challenged, had a decent career
Hart - not a pure shooter, had a decent career
Moten - undersized for SF, too slow for SG
Fab Melo - TBD
Waiters - TBD
KrisJo - TBD
MCW - TBD

Rautins, Nichols, Brown, Mcrae, D. Johnson and Ellis were marginal NBA talents at best

You can see from the numbers that JB won with marginal talent after probation hit in the 1990's until Melo arrived in 2003. Besides Hart and Thomas, none of our players would be considered defensive players on the NBA level, which is a weakness associated with all SU players entering the draft.

Since the Flynn class arrived, better talent has been coming consistently to the hill and we are seeing more pro's as a result - we may move up this list in the coming years.

Why has Boeheim been able to win consistently with these players and have them play defence (albeight zone) which has not translated on the NBA level

That's why he is a HOFer

The reason for the perception (one that I think is accurate) is the studs that didn't do as well as they should have in the NBA. Coleman should have been a HOFer. I know he had the heart condition, but even before that he underperformed mostly because of his attitude. Owens should've been a multiple allstar and possible HOFer, and he has admitted he was lazy. Had Wallace ever decided to play defense he would've been a starter and solid player for a long time. Coleman and Owens had all of Melo's talent, and if they had lived up to their potential SU would be thought of differently.

It seems that all of the hard working guys (Hart, Thomas, Warrick, Douglas) were lacking in NBA talent, and most of the talented guys just didn't want to work all that hard once they got to the NBA.

I don't want to sound like I'm dumping on our guys because I loved watching them in orange and blue. I think it's just the hard truth about what could have been.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Did Seikaly not play for SU? I mean, he wasn't an all star or HOFer, but ~16pg over 678 games from a center isn't something to sneeze at.

No one mentions Flynn's hip when they write these things. Jonny was a good basketball player in a poor situation (no one to pass to, no help, and Kurt Rambis - how's his coaching career these days?) and then he shredded his hip. See how good Steph Curry is with a bum hip ...

In the end, yeah, SU players under perform in the NBA. But SU isn't recruiting NBA players. They recruit for the zone and as a team they win college basketball games. The best athletes on those teams sometimes show enough talent for the pros. Other schools, cough cough UK cough cough, recruit potential NBA players to try and win college basketball games. It may be a small difference, but it's a difference.

EDIT: Oops, I just noticed that this was for players drafted after 89. So no Rony.

 

[All4SU]

I think people have overvalued the talent that has played at SU

Besides Melo, Coleman, Wallace and Owens who were studs, the other players all had holes in their games

Douglas - not a great athlete, size issues
Warrick - tweener, not a great shooter
Greene - one and done, not time to develop his overall game at SU
Flynn - undersized, injury hampered pro career
W. Johnson - ball handling challenged
Thomas - offensively challenged, had a decent career
Hart - not a pure shooter, had a decent career
Moten - undersized for SF, too slow for SG
Fab Melo - TBD
Waiters - TBD
KrisJo - TBD
MCW - TBD

Rautins, Nichols, Brown, Mcrae, D. Johnson and Ellis were marginal NBA talents at best

You can see from the numbers that JB won with marginal talent after probation hit in the 1990's until Melo arrived in 2003. Besides Hart and Thomas, none of our players would be considered defensive players on the NBA level, which is a weakness associated with all SU players entering the draft.

Since the Flynn class arrived, better talent has been coming consistently to the hill and we are seeing more pro's as a result - we may move up this list in the coming years.

Why has Boeheim been able to win consistently with these players and have them play defence (albeight zone) which has not translated on the NBA level

That's why he is a HOFer

I agree with this. Historically, SU has had so many players perform so well in college in JBs system, that folks naturally assume they will duplicate it in the pros. Only recently is SU getting those guys that are near sure hit pros.

 

[Niastri]

I'm of the belief that a kid either has NBA talent or doesn't. Jonny Flynn would have been drafted whether he went to Syracuse or Rutgers. Kemba Walker would have been drafted whether he went to UConn or Seton Hall. Thaddeus Young would have been drafted whether hwe went to Georgia Tech or Georgia. It's 100% up to kid whether they make it to the league, I think it's ridiculous to say that Donte Greene or Wes Johnson would have had a more successful NBA career if they went to Duke, UNC or UConn.

If Wes Johnson was happy at ISU and stayed, he very likely breaks out the same way he did here.

You might get more exposure at SU than Rutgers, but if you have the talent and ability the scouts will find out.

Georgia Tech has more NBA players right now than Michigan State. Funny how no one ever brings up Izzo "not being able to produce NBA talent".

Coaching matters, and there's no comparison between Coach K and Mike Rice; but like I said, I think if an NBA thinks you have the talent you'll be fine.

You have an internal contradiction which indicates you don't fully believe the basic premise of this post...

But let me ask you? Have you ever in life gotten better at something because somebody made you better? Of course you have, it is even a dumb rhetorical question, or we wouldn't have "coaches" and "teachers."

The more important question is... How much or how little credit do you give to the people who taught you the skills you have? Was it all you, or should they get some credit as well?

(we can have the conversation about arrogant people later, if you actually think it was all you and not the help of your coaches, lol)

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I think this speaks to the statement of just how hard it is to make the NBA. You draft 60 guys, usually 20 are cut or sent to the d-league that leaves you with 40 guys that start the season. Out of those 40 guys I want to say 20 are still there in 5 years and maybe 10 are still there after ten years. So you have about ten guys having a successful career that expands beyond one contract. Most people that go to the NBA bust.

 

[realorange]

I think this speaks to the statement of just how hard it is to make the NBA. You draft 60 guys, usually 20 are cut or sent to the d-league that leaves you with 40 guys that start the season. Out of those 40 guys I want to say 20 are still there in 5 years and maybe 10 are still there after ten years. So you have about ten guys having a successful career that expands beyond one contract. Most people that go to the NBA bust.

The real sad thing is that 1000+ kids in high school are certain they will make the NBA.

 

[SUGIANT]

Well, the argument in that write up isn't that we haven't developed enough pros exactly, it's that the guys we have sent to the pros have done relatively little.

I think he's undervaluing the careers that Hart and Etan had though.

I would think there are 3 players in the runner up columh that would beat out hakim, Ronny S. had a pretty good pro career and you've already mentioned Hart and Etan. Both had better careers in the NBA than Hakim, at least so far.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Medcalf wrote something right for once. Why shouldn't college basketball be preparing you for the pros? Isn't that what college is except these dudes are studying/playing hoops. I see both sides of the argument but I lean towards the side of it being ok to scrutinize a program for not developing more solid pro players.

The large majority of these kids will never make the NBA. This is true for almost every program across the country. At the end of the day, JB gets paid for how successful his teams are and his ability to win at the college level . Developing them to be NBA players is helpful in that it may help him recruit, but it should not be a primary benchmark for success. Neither he nor the rest of the staff are employed by the NBA. I have no problem with articles such as the one in this thread, but if we are a successful program, I'm not gonna get upset if our players are not among the NBA elite.