Feelings of Hopelessness for this Program amidst the Gaslighting

[JeffCuse]

I don't believe in many absolutes in this world. Almost everything is and should be up for discussion or consideration.

• Fans that shout from social media that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot get the job done and 100% should be fired are extreme. And that is a non-productive stance to take.
• Fans (and apparently administrators) that take the position that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot be fired and 100% must be given the job next year? That's wrong too.

Why are so many so damm entrenched, so unable to have a real, level-headed discussion of the pros and the cons of making a change? I hear so many people calling into radio sounding like their best friend has died, saying this is the worst they have seen this program in 50+ years, saying they have no interest any more, and then saying "We have to give him one more year". Its gaslighting to the Nth degree. No we don't. Maybe we should. Maybe that's where we land after a discussion of all options. But NOTHING is entitled in this world, especially when it comes along with offensive and defensive schemes that look dusted off from the days of underhanded free throws. Nothing innovative is happening under Autry. It's awful. We lose to bad teams, and get destroyed by good ones.

I believe Autry is likely in way over his head and like Jerod Mayo, the beloved but unqualified former Patriots coach, likely needs to be relieved of his duties. That's not an absolute, but I feel confident enough about it that I believe it needs serious consideration.

But that said, I'm not even saying a change MUST be made. But I'm so tired of this defeatist attitude that we have NO choice but to eat one more season of terrible basketball, taking us one season farther from competitiveness.

I saw a social post that was a mind fark. It said that this current graduating class will have NEVER seen this team in a Tourney. That's INSANE. We need to do everything to make sure next year's doesn't suffer the same fate. That may include Autry and this staff, if may not. But ALL OPTIONS need to be considered at the highest levels.

There has GOT to be a way to save the incoming class without sacrificing the future of the program. Isn't it worth even trying?

It just feels so hopeless.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Let's acknowledge that there are likely differences between the conversations we have about what's possible and potential solutions on a fan board vs what conversations the AD has privately.

 

[JeffCuse]

Let's acknowledge that there are likely differences between the conversations we have about what's possible and potential solutions on a fan board vs what conversations the AD has privately.

I'm referring more to the general sentiment. It seems there are MANY members of the media who are convinced it can't happen. It also seems that fans are buying that line. It has to coming from somewhere.

 

[phil77]

No recruiting class is ever worth keeping a coach over.
No recruiting class is ever worth holding a program hostage over.

 

[kingtidge]

I'm referring more to the general sentiment. It seems there are MANY members of the media who are convinced it can't happen. It also seems that fans are buying that line. It has to coming from somewhere.

Well, we had our former coach and representative of the Athletic Department come out in a public interview last week and say we don't fire a coach after 2 years at Syracuse and if he's not getting it done, after year 4 there will be discussions.

There's your official somewhere.

 

[23Zone]

This is a VERY high paying job that comes with certain expectations. When expectations are not met and there is no hint of improvement or basic competence, there must be consequences. Other than massive fan apathy

 

[AcAndAc]

The gaslighting is the notion that Syracuse cannot afford, monetarily, to fire a coach. As if Syracuse University is collecting cans to pay the bills. They might not have it in the current budget, athletic department or otherwise. But the money is there, somewhere, if needed.

The goal is to, instead, convince a bunch of people that--shrugging the shoulders--we just need to stick with him another year. If there is anyone that cannot afford something, it is the average fan taking money that could be used to pay bills, save for retirement, or put into a different recreation instead being conned into supporting the program in 2025-2026 because 2026-2027 will be much better.

 

[AcAndAc]

This is a VERY high paying job that comes with certain expectations. When expectations are not met and there is no hint of improvement or basic competence, there must be consequences. Other than massive fan apathy

Or, perhaps the expectations are only there from the fan side... and Autry is a low-budget hire coupled with an effort to convince us that we just need to be patient.

 

[OttosShoes]

Why are so many so damm entrenched, so unable to have a real, level-headed discussion of the pros and the cons of making a change?

• Fans that are set on firing Red are just very set on firing Red.
• Fans that are divided on it [like me] are often met with resistance. We try to put some perspective on it and usually get scathing replies. Being neutral gets "with us or against us" vibes so it's much easier just to withdraw from the discussion. Indeed I'm only commenting to answer your question and am still bracing for somebody to be like "name a worse season then." I can't, I know it's bad.
• I don't think it's fair to assume the administration is set on Red. We don't really know what they're thinking, and they're certainly not going to tell us. If you fire someone, you just do it, you don't first telegraph it publicly for a large number of reasons.

 

[JeffCuse]

Well, we had our former coach and representative of the Athletic Department come out in a public interview last week and say we don't fire a coach after 2 years at Syracuse and if he's not getting it done, after year 4 there will be discussions.

There's your official somewhere.

There you go.
Thus, hopelessness.

 

[721Comstock]

As we saw with football and Coach Fran, it is entirely possible to bring on a new, outside guy, AND retain the croots you want to retain.

Would it be a given that we could retain the '25 class guys, with a sufficiently not-turrible new coach hire?

Nope.

But given the fact that it seems almost irrelevant who and how good any future croots may be, if the current coaching staff can't utilize their talents properly, and build a competitive team around them.
NONE of the '25 class guys are generational talents, or even realistically top 10 type croots who you can feature as the Alpha on a given team.

Rutgers had the FOURTH ranked class w/ TWO top-5 5* recruits on their current squad.
How's that working out for them??

We aren't seeing ANYTHING from Red & crew that leads us to think there's any plan, any identity, any anything to build upon or even have any sense of optimism about.

When Danny Hurley started at UConn, they sucked for the first 2 seaons, but -
There was clearly a plan, a style, and a process they were implementing, and -
they got better over time.

We keep regressing.

I cannot see any scenario whereby Red comes back next year, and we improve in any meaningful way.

So, we should rip the bandaid off now (at the end of the season, if not even sooner), and get started with the process of a proper NATIONAL SEARCH, to then identify and interview the BEST possible candidates, and then hire the best one.

 

[RF2044]

I'm referring more to the general sentiment. It seems there are MANY members of the media who are convinced it can't happen. It also seems that fans are buying that line. It has to coming from somewhere.

Maybe it's the reality. After all, the guy is a alum, a prominent former player, and two years is a short timeframe -- plus, the University doesn't want to professionally embarrass the guy by letting him go after 2 years.

But on the other hand, decisions / actions [or lack thereof] have consequences. And the decision to stick with him after this year may have an impact on fan engagement, ticket sales, volume of season tickets, attendance, and revenue.

The decision to give him a FOURTH year if things don't turn around would have even bigger implications.

And if he did turn it around? Well, program success is what everyone wants in the end. Which is why some are ready for change now, and some want to give him another chance with another wave of portal transfers.

The problem I have is with posters, admins, representatives from the AD, etc. claiming that timeframe is predetermined / immutable. This is a performance-based profession, and things need to be reassessed based upon performance [or lack thereof].

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm referring more to the general sentiment. It seems there are MANY members of the media who are convinced it can't happen. It also seems that fans are buying that line. It has to coming from somewhere.

That's a big assumption.

 

[OttosShoes]

The problem I have is with posters, admins, representatives from the AD, etc. claiming that timeframe is predetermined / immutable. This is a performance-based profession, and things need to be reassessed based upon performance [or lack thereof].

People say all kinds of things, what they do is what counts.

I'm fortunate to have nice seats. At the end of 3OT at the Boston College game, JW came over and was shaking hands in the bench area as congratulations. The look on his face was about what I'd expect to see on somebody who inadvertently stepped out of the way of a grand piano as it fell off a skyscraper. I...don't really think any decision has been made yet.

 

[baggerbob]

Well, we had our former coach and representative of the Athletic Department come out in a public interview last week and say we don't fire a coach after 2 years at Syracuse and if he's not getting it done, after year 4 there will be discussions.

There's your official somewhere.

And nothing that he says after he spent the last 8 or 9 years tearing down the program should be listened to. He needs to go away and let the program rebuild itself.

 

[RF2044]

• Fans that are set on firing Red are just very set on firing Red.
• Fans that are divided on it [like me] are often met with resistance. We try to put some perspective on it and usually get scathing replies. Being neutral gets "with us or against us" vibes so it's much easier just to withdraw from the discussion. Indeed I'm only commenting to answer your question and am still bracing for somebody to be like "name a worse season then." I can't, I know it's bad.
• I don't think it's fair to assume the administration is set on Red. We don't really know what they're thinking, and they're certainly not going to tell us. If you fire someone, you just do it, you don't first telegraph it publicly for a large number of reasons.

I don't mean this to be argumentative, and I like how you laid this out for discussion, but it seems like an oversimplified representation of the positions.

This isn't just about Red -- it's also the 8 year precipitous decline that came BEFORE Red taking over.

The program has been on a slow, steady, tangible decline for a decade. We went from being a team that was #1 seed caliber 12 or so years ago, to being a perennial bubble team that nobody wanted to play, to a team that struggled to just MAKE the tournament, to a team that suffers 13+ losses every single year, to a team that misses the NCAA tournament regularly and hasn't gotten a bid in 4 years [and likely now 5].

It's fine to take a wait-and-see approach. But some posters have seen enough to recognize that the downtrend hasn't been reversed, and doesn't appear likely TO be reversed by the current coach.

 

[JeffCuse]

That's a big assumption

There is precedent

 

[OttosShoes]

but it seems like an oversimplified representation of the positions.

Oh for sure. Tons of nuance here.

Even being split on it, I'd say the odds of Red "growing into it" are about 10%, and I'm sure people can make reasonable arguments for well lower. But I also want badly for it to work out--I grew up watching him streak across the floor--and I have concerns about what his "wins above replacement" are if we let him go.

IMHO we'd need an extremely solid list of candidates, otherwise the risk of hitting the restart button *again* in short order isn't worth it vs. letting it ride another year and seeing if either he or the market for new coaches improves.

One more thing on hopelessness. People acquire skills in plateaus. You struggle a bit at a level, then jump up to another one. Sometimes you go down a little bit. It's not all linear improvements. It might be fair to say the odds decrease, but I don't think it's fair to the dude to say he has no chance just because he's not demonstrating the growth expected of him. Something something Josh Allen wasn't recruited out of high school. People progress at their own rates.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I don't mean this to be argumentative, and I like how you laid this out for discussion, but it seems like an oversimplified representation of the positions.

This isn't just about Red -- it's also the 8 year precipitous decline that came BEFORE Red taking over.

The program has been on a slow, steady, tangible decline for a decade. We went from being a team that was #1 seed caliber 12 or so years ago, to being a perennial bubble team that nobody wanted to play, to a team that struggled to just MAKE the tournament, to a team that suffers 13+ losses every single year, to a team that misses the NCAA tournament regularly and hasn't gotten a bid in 4 years [and likely now 5].

It's fine to take a wait-and-see approach. But some posters have seen enough to recognize that the downtrend hasn't been reversed, and doesn't appear likely TO be reversed by the current coach.

I suspect Jesse Edwards leaving was a really pivotal moment in the program, for a couple reasons.

First, it took us from a situation where we would have had one of the best centers in the country and a really experienced player to having to shoehorn a talented guy into the spot. Maliq played well but that wasn't the ideal scenario. As I've mentioned in other threads, I think if Jesse was our center we make the tournament.

Second, I think him taking a deal from WFVU put blood in the water for portal sharks. Once that happened, we could not work from a position of strength. It was known that guys could be taken from us. That also meant that we could be leveraged (more or less how it seems to have gone down with Lampkin). It translated into a reputation as not being a serious player in the portal for the top guys.

There's an alternative timeline where Jesse stays, we make the tournament, maybe the program stays together better, and overall we're in a stronger position to be more enticing in the portal and we're not coming across as much like a wounded animal. That leads to a better roster this year, which is more forgiving of some of the learning on the job Red's clearly going through.

I'm not saying that fully gets us back to high level competitiveness, but it could be some effort to reverse some of the trends we've been watching for a decade now.

 

[kingtidge]

And nothing that he says after he spent the last 8 or 9 years tearing down the program should be listened to. He needs to go away and let the program rebuild itself.

JAB is actually on the AD's staff, so a little wishful thinking I am afraid.

 

[OttosShoes]

JAB is actually on the AD's staff, so a little wishful thinking I am afraid.

Find me an exec that agrees with everybody on their staff and I'll find you a liar.

 

[AZOrange]

JW is not letting this slide…he is not
Flat footed here

 

[phil77]

JW is not letting this slide…he is not
Flat footed here

I hope you are correct because this is bad bad

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I don't believe in many absolutes in this world. Almost everything is and should be up for discussion or consideration.

• Fans that shout from social media that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot get the job done and 100% should be fired are extreme. And that is a non-productive stance to take.
• Fans (and apparently administrators) that take the position that Adrian Autry absolutely cannot be fired and 100% must be given the job next year? That's wrong too.

Why are so many so damm entrenched, so unable to have a real, level-headed discussion of the pros and the cons of making a change? I hear so many people calling into radio sounding like their best friend has died, saying this is the worst they have seen this program in 50+ years, saying they have no interest any more, and then saying "We have to give him one more year". Its gaslighting to the Nth degree. No we don't. Maybe we should. Maybe that's where we land after a discussion of all options. But NOTHING is entitled in this world, especially when it comes along with offensive and defensive schemes that look dusted off from the days of underhanded free throws. Nothing innovative is happening under Autry. It's awful. We lose to bad teams, and get destroyed by good ones.

I believe Autry is likely in way over his head and like Jerod Mayo, the beloved but unqualified former Patriots coach, likely needs to be relieved of his duties. That's not an absolute, but I feel confident enough about it that I believe it needs serious consideration.

But that said, I'm not even saying a change MUST be made. But I'm so tired of this defeatist attitude that we have NO choice but to eat one more season of terrible basketball, taking us one season farther from competitiveness.

I saw a social post that was a mind fark. It said that this current graduating class will have NEVER seen this team in a Tourney. That's INSANE. We need to do everything to make sure next year's doesn't suffer the same fate. That may include Autry and this staff, if may not. But ALL OPTIONS need to be considered at the highest levels.

There has GOT to be a way to save the incoming class without sacrificing the future of the program. Isn't it worth even trying?

It just feels so hopeless.

Always darkest before the dawn. This to shall pass. Other platitudes. Etc.

 

[kingtidge]

Find me an exec that agrees with everybody on their staff and I'll find you a liar.

Indeed.

Also, there is the possibility that JAB was just saying stuff w/o the purview of JW, tho, given the timing, I tend to think he was mouthpiecing the AD's talking points.