Flagrant foul rule

[SBU72]

I am all for b-ball trying to get the "kids" from swinging their elbows head high and the call yesterday (Flagrant foul 1, unintenional) looked to be the right one. But what I don't understand how they can allow a guy to foul another while attempting to score and then allow the score when they later call the foul! That seems crazy. If they had blown the whistle at the exact time it happened the basket whould not have been allowed. They reviewed the incident momments later, so it was not like they had to turn back a calender! Nothing happened in between. they should have disallowed the basket and proceeded from there.

 

[JarHeadJim]

Lol I just posted the same thing. Great minds think alike!

 

[tbonezone]

as i stated below i don't like the rule. if you have possession of the ball and someone is aggressively trying to pry it away and catches an accidental elbow...c'est la vie.play on. what i do want to see however is the rule uniformly applied and enforced. i didn't like the call yesterday but i understand that the way it is written now that flagrant foul has to be called.

 

[jordoo]

as i stated below i don't like the rule. if you have possession of the ball and someone is aggressively trying to pry it away and catches an accidental elbow...c'est la vie.play on. what i do want to see however is the rule uniformly applied and enforced. i didn't like the call yesterday but i understand that the way it is written now that flagrant foul has to be called.

Agreed defense should never be played with ones face and you certainly shouldn't get rewarded for sticking igt in the way of someones elbows.

 

[SBU72]

Agreed defense should never be played with ones face and you certainly shouldn't get rewarded for sticking igt in the way of someones elbows.

I hear what you are saying but if a player uses his butt (or scholders) to push a defender away, he gets called an offensive foul. Why is an elbow different?

 

[tbonezone]

if you grew up playing underneath in my generation there is the time honored tradition of clearing space. wes unseld style. that rule was known.expected.and respected.

 

[jordoo]

I hear what you are saying but if a player uses his butt (or scholders) to push a defender away, he gets called an offensive foul. Why is an elbow different?

Because it wasn't even clearing space it was simply turning over his already positioned base. If Baye wants to put his face there it should be on him IMO.

 

[ClamOtto]

I also don't understand why the player who was just flagrantly fouled is required to shoot the FTs. Is that the rule or did the refs screw it up? Wouldn't that player be hurt or woozy a good portion of the time? In Baye's case he had a bloody lip and you're not supposed to be in the game if you're bleeding. Seems like adding insult to injury (almost literally)

 

[Cowtown]

I also don't understand why the player who was just flagrantly fouled is required to shoot the FTs. Is that the rule or did the refs screw it up? Wouldn't that player be hurt or woozy a good portion of the time? In Baye's case he had a bloody lip and you're not supposed to be in the game if you're bleeding. Seems like adding insult to injury (almost literally)

Because it's a personal foul, by rule the player who was fouled shoots. If it's a T, then any player on the floor can shoot (IIRC). If the player who was fouled is "hurt, woozy or bleeding," you can sub for him, and if you do, the incoming sub shoots the FT's.

edit: I didn't see the play in question, but every rule book I've ever seen states the player with the ball must expect to be closely guarded. So, the "time and distance" the defense has to give to other players, (and also which the offense has to give when setting blind screens), does not apply when guarding "on ball." Also, physical contact which dislodges/displaces any player is a foul, including using the elbows. You can protect the ball, but you can't clear space them. In FIBA ball, "excessively swinging the elbows" is a technical foul even if you don't make contact.

Also consider that the thugball bullshit the NBA allows is different from amateur ball. Anyone who thinks the NBA and college ball play by the same rules is failing to recognize the difference between sport and entertainment.

Moreover, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who play basketball for fun, and coming home with a broken nose or needing thousands of dollars worth of orthodontist's work is not fun for anyone. But because happens, you still teach kids "Don't play defense with your face."

 

[upperdeck]

they messed up on the shooter.. he left the game because of the blood so someone else should have been shooting.

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

Lol I just posted the same thing. Great minds think alike!

Someone needs to ask Boeheim this question on the Coach's Show ... HINT HINT. Would love to hear Jim's response.

 

[cpatrocks]

The problem here is the flagrant foul rule -- that worked perfectly --- the problem was that the Refs completely missed the foul in the first place --- the rule assumes that the refs will sorta notice when a player knocks down another player by swinging his elbow.

This was just another example of how bad the refs were on Saturday.

 

[SBU72]

if you grew up playing underneath in my generation there is the time honored tradition of clearing space. wes unseld style. that rule was known.expected.and respected.

Time honored tradition? Just like concussions in the NFL?

Because it wasn't even clearing space it was simply turning over his already positioned base. If Baye wants to put his face there it should be on him IMO.

Actually his elbows were extended beyond his positioned base.

The problem here is the flagrant foul rule -- that worked perfectly --- the problem was that the Refs completely missed the foul in the first place --- the rule assumes that the refs will sorta notice when a player knocks down another player by swinging his elbow.

This was just another example of how bad the refs were on Saturday.

And that is what I was getting at when I started the thread. Since it was an offensive foul, the basket should not have counted. If they blow the whistle when they were supposed to, the shot whould not have counted and then they could review the tape to see if it was flagrant. So given the power to go back and review, they should have the power to disallow the basket. Hey, they can change a 2 to a 3 or vice versa, or declare a shot before or after a buzzer, why not allow or disallow a basket on a flagrant foul?

 

[Cowtown]

So given the power to go back and review, they should have the power to disallow the basket. Hey, they can change a 2 to a 3 or vice versa, or declare a shot before or after a buzzer, why not allow or disallow a basket on a flagrant foul?

Think of where that would eventually go, as in any foul situation. Stepping on the three-point line or seeing the ball in the shooter's hand next to the seconds on the clock are, for all practical purposes, observations and don't really take a lot of judgment. Fouls are different. Mere contact does not determine a foul, advantage gained or disadvantage created does. And that requires experience, judgment and a sense of feel for the whole game. No crap, just sayin' ...

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Think of where that would eventually go, as in any foul situation. Stepping on the three-point line or seeing the ball in the shooter's hand next to the seconds on the clock are, for all practical purposes, observations and don't really take a lot of judgment. Fouls are different. Mere contact does not determine a foul, advantage gained or disadvantage created does. And that requires experience, judgment and a sense of feel for the whole game. No crap, just sayin' ...

And in the case of that play, advantage was clearly gained by the contact which was initiated by the offensive player. A foul should clearly have been called, but I agree that it would be difficult to go back and remove that shot because the whistle was not blown. Stupid rule, but I guess a necessity.

 

[tbonezone]

"Time honored tradition? Just like concussions in the NFL?"
to debate the NFL's new p$$$y rules and how they ruin the game we'll have to move to the other sports forum

 

[stuckinbig11]

Someone needs to ask Boeheim this question on the Coach's Show ... HINT HINT. Would love to hear Jim's response.

I sent in this question yesterday.

 

[SBU72]

And in the case of that play, advantage was clearly gained by the contact which was initiated by the offensive player. A foul should clearly have been called, but I agree that it would be difficult to go back and remove that shot because the whistle was not blown. Stupid rule, but I guess a necessity.

If the foul is flagrant (pun intented) enough to warrent review, then they should have the power to wipe out a basket.

 

[pfister1]

Someone needs to ask Boeheim this question on the Coach's Show ... HINT HINT. Would love to hear Jim's response.

You need to ask Coach Boeheim the question...

Here you go. Link to submit your question

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

You need to ask Coach Boeheim the question...

Here you go. Link to submit your question

Thanks. Done.

"FLAGRANT FOUL: Coach what are your thoughts on the Villanova basket counting despite the Flagrant 1 foul occurring prior to the shot. I realize the refs did not stop the play until after the shot was taken and made, but if they retroactively call the Flagrant 1, why not also retroactively take away the basket. It's only logical."