Good for Jay Bilas

[Crusty]

I agree with his perspective with respect to a players union and I know most will hate it but it should help forward the conversation.

 

[Libero2]

My one complaint about what he said, is that essentially the free education kids get means literally nothing.

getting out of college loans free matters a whole hell of a lot more than the fact I worked 30 hours a week while I was in grad school to have enough money to pay rent and for books so I didn't need to take out even more loans. I'll spend the next 20+ years of life paying off those loans. My experience is not exactly unique.

Given the choice between a free education, where I could only have minimal amounts of pocket change for spending, or working through college while having (very slightly) more pocket change, but $100,000+ in student loans, I'll take the first one every single time.

Oh and my face (along with a ton of other students nationwide) is on a handful of campus ads, pepsi ads with shots of the stands, I'm in the commercial that SU has been running every sporting event this year (and a good portion of last year), I don't see anybody clamoring to help me make some money off the numerous advertisements dollars both the campus, Pepsi and whoever else has my face on an ad has made. I didn't sign anything saying use of me in advertisements without compensation is OK. It's not like I don't need the additional funding (along with every other college kid or recent Grad in America) But I'm not going after Pepsi for it, and I consider it an honor, and exciting to be a part of those ads, and I have copies of them lying around that I can save and show to my kids those ads one day. If I pressed the advertising agencies for my money, supposing they would actually give me "my dues" (yeah right that would happen) it certainly wouldn't be as much money as C.J. Fair is owed, but I'd still be owed something, as they obviously saw something in the pictures I am in that enabled them to think it would help them move their product to the public.

So my point here, longwinded as it may be, is that a free education is not worthless, no matter what anybody thinks. It's on the kids to put it to good use once they have it. No matter what I (as a normal college student) was allowed to earn, a guy like Brandon Triche (who doesn't appear he will make it in the NBA) is so much further ahead in his life financially than I am, despite me working 30 hours a week during my college tenure.

 

[Crusty]

My one complaint about what he said, is that essentially the free education kids get means literally nothing.

getting out of college loans free matters a whole hell of a lot more than the fact I worked 30 hours a week while I was in grad school to have enough money to pay rent and for books so I didn't need to take out even more loans. I'll spend the next 20+ years of life paying off those loans. My experience is not exactly unique.

Given the choice between a free education, where I could only have minimal amounts of pocket change for spending, or working through college while having (very slightly) more pocket change, but $100,000+ in student loans, I'll take the first one every single time.

Oh and my face (along with a ton of other students nationwide) is on a handful of campus ads, pepsi ads with shots of the stands, I'm in the commercial that SU has been running every sporting event this year (and a good portion of last year), I don't see anybody clamoring to help me make some money off the numerous advertisements dollars both the campus, Pepsi and whoever else has my face on an ad has made. I didn't sign anything saying use of me in advertisements without compensation is OK. It's not like I don't need the additional funding (along with every other college kid or recent Grad in America) But I'm not going after Pepsi for it, and I consider it an honor, and exciting to be a part of those ads, and I have copies of them lying around that I can save and show to my kids those ads one day. If I pressed the advertising agencies for my money, supposing they would actually give me "my dues" (yeah right that would happen) it certainly wouldn't be as much money as C.J. Fair is owed, but I'd still be owed something, as they obviously saw something in the pictures I am in that enabled them to think it would help them move their product to the public.

So my point here, longwinded as it may be, is that a free education is not worthless, no matter what anybody thinks. It's on the kids to put it to good use once they have it. No matter what I (as a normal college student) was allowed to earn, a guy like Brandon Triche (who doesn't appear he will make it in the NBA) is so much further ahead in his life financially than I am, despite me working 30 hours a week during my college tenure.

Who said it was worthless? Nobody - merely that it is not enough. As for your likeness - what is your market value? When SU puts your picture on a sweatshirt and sells it then call a lawyer but until then you granted your permission to use your likeness, voice etc when you bought your ticket.

 

[orlandoorange]

Who said it was worthless? Nobody - merely that it is not enough. As for your likeness - what is your market value? When SU puts your picture on a sweatshirt and sells it then call a lawyer but until then you granted your permission to use your likeness, voice etc when you bought your ticket.

does it say that on the ticket?

I don't pretend to know what the right move is, but in my experience with unions, and the point Digger tried to make, is that typically they help themselves more than the people they represent. 70% of NBA players bankrupt within 5 years of retirement... that is staggering. So for at least 70% of those players, that representation was useless,

I think Jay makes a good point in that by the IRS definition of an employee it seems like the athletes are employees, plus coaches can go where they want, players, can't etc.

I think the best way to work this out is provide an alternative to college athletics as a means to get to a pro sport rather than forcing kids to go through college as the not for profit NFL does.

 

[cmr27]

It would be interesting to see if players threaten to strike once unionized. Imagine not knowing whether today's game will be played because they players/schools/NCAA are negotiating. That threat is the most powerful negotiating tool a union holds. It's not enough to say it would never come to that in college basketball or football because the history of the labor movement shows otherwise. Strikes are effective. Of course, players could waive the right to strike either at formation or as part of collective bargaining.

It's a very complex issue and one with a lot of ramifications beyond whether athletes are employees or not.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Who said it was worthless? Nobody - merely that it is not enough. As for your likeness - what is your market value? When SU puts your picture on a sweatshirt and sells it then call a lawyer but until then you granted your permission to use your likeness, voice etc when you bought your ticket.

On the other hand how much is the publicity worth? How much do celebrities, pro athletes etc pay for PR/agents etc to get the face time, to keep their names in the limelight and cultivate a brand?

If these kids went straight to the NBA's D league and forego college, how many people know them, follow them, become fans? Colleges give these athletes an invaluable and high profile platform for their future that can't be underestimated either. It's a 2 way street.

I can see a fixed living stipend of $200-$400 a month that is strictly enforced but paying them , I don't see it.

 

[retro44]

By paying these kids will this affect the way programs exhaust Pell grants and all other avenues of aid to use to off-set scholarships the schools give. Cash is cash and it has to count as income and it could put the families over the limits. SUNY Buffalo counted what my kid had in his savings account against his financial aid. My wife and I are not rich, but we qualified for zero aid.

Is it normal to have benefits like scholarships to far exceed the income they could earn.

Just guarantee the kids 4/5 year rides and call it the day....

 

[Crusty]

I think everybody pretty much agrees that a minor league would be better for many and then there would be an option as with baseball. But we have what we have and a minor league is not going to grow up overnight.

All the other issues are negotiable. The B5 is becoming an oligopoly and the only answer for that of which I am aware is a union to counter their power. The NCAA is a failed institution and it is probably time for it to go away.

 

[Moontan]

The NCAA is a failed institution and it is probably time for it to go away.

The NCAA does well for much that it does. Is it perfect? No. If the NCAA is abolished then another governing body will need to be established. It's probably better to revamp what's there. The NCAA is a member-run organization. For change to happen, the institutions need to make them.

 

[tptcuse]

The NCAA does well for much that it does. Is it perfect? No. If the NCAA is abolished then another governing body will need to be established. It's probably better to revamp what's there. The NCAA is a member-run organization. For change to happen, the institutions need to make them.

I like the idea of student representatives when rules and infractions are being discussed. If anything, it would keep the NCAA honest when they are about to do something crazy like giving that kid 80 hours of community service and a suspension for $270 worth of 'improper benefits'.

 

[Orangejet]

Football & Basketball players should be paid when the schools and head coaches are making millions.

Nick Saban makes 7.5m per year, his coordinators make 1.2m and 3/4 of the team doesn't have a pot to piss in...

According to Bilas, six SEC baseball coaches are making over a million dollars per year...Good Grief!

 

[Cheriehoop]

Look at the D pro League salaries and tell me that college kids get that bad of a deal. This is from a May 3, 2013 article:

"According to ESPN's Marc Stein, there are three basic levels of D-League player salaries: $25,000, $19,000, and $13,000. Taking the league by storm as he ran away with its M.V.P., award, it's sensible to assume Goudelock was earning the top amount. Still, such isn't much to write home about.

In addition to the modest salary, there are other varied perks. The D-League teams do in fact pay for player housing, provide certain benefits, and grant each of their players a $40 per-diem for food, etc."

Compare this to the high cost of an SU education which includes food, housing also. How much money does the NBA make yet this is what they pay to their "minor league" pro development league players? No one is complaining about their abuse and exploitation.

 

[Full_Rebar]

This isn't going to end with a union. The players are looking for a voice because right now student-athletes have none within the NCAA. What makes the NCAA awful is that the member institutions are so diverse and focus on what they need to do for themselves. The Alabama and Ohio States are looking at different things than a Rhode Island or a St. Bonaventure. It makes everything too complicated and cumbersome (over 400 pages of rules).

Student-athletes want guarantees of scholarships (which are currently 1 yr deals), commitment to cover all medical expenses, more relaxed transfer rules, etc. A free education is a good deal, but a free education in a major that isn't of interest to you isn't an equal trade for nearly year round 30-50 hour athletic commitments.

D1 football players get a couple of weeks off in December and then 2 more weeks in the summer. Many don't have time to complete internships/summer jobs to prepare them for life after college. Change is needed.

 

[All4SU]

I think the best way to work this out is provide an alternative to college athletics as a means to get to a pro sport rather than forcing kids to go through college as the not for profit NFL does.

Exactly. I can't "Like" this part of your post enough. That's exactly the answer. AND the added benefit of that is that these inner city kids who are earning scholarships, but not getting educated may finally get the message that a degree is the best bet on a future...not pro sports. We do a great disservice to them by allowing a system to operate which fools them into thinking pro sports are the way off the streets. If we really want to do what is right, THAT's what we will do, not just slip them a few dollars to keep them indentured.

 

[javadoc]

...
I think Jay makes a good point in that by the IRS definition of an employee it seems like the athletes are employees, plus coaches can go where they want, players, can't etc.

Haven't seen the original comments, but better watch out for this one. As I understand the NCAA's goals, keeping student-athletes in amateur status is pretty much the end goal of the entire organization. Thus, no cash payments or other typical salary considerations. The scholarship is considered a form of payment in kind. If you're an employee now, that is just plain payment, and here come the taxes on it.

 

[Moontan]

Football & Basketball players should be paid when the schools and head coaches are making millions.

That just doesn't fit in the current university model. A full-cost-of-attendance stipend is fine. A portion of jersey sales profits in an account payable upon graduation (pro-rated for those leaving early) might work as well. 4/5 year scholarships instead of a series of 1-year scholarships is good too.

If players want to be paid then they should join a pro (development) league. I suspect this development league would be far less glamorous than the current high profile apprenticeships at the country's colleges and universities.

If you're a top football prospect, would you prefer to make $50-100k and play in front of 4,000 fans, or earn a degree and have access to top-flight facilities and play in front of 80,000+ fans. While some will opt for the former, will there really be enough players to form a league? While most players hope for an NFL opportunity, very few actually reach that goal. For the vast majority, utilizing their athletic skills to acquire an education and present them with a better future than they'd otherwise have would be the smart route.

 

[Moontan]

If you're an employee now, that is just plain payment, and here come the taxes on it.

Not just for the players, but also for the athletic departments as they lose their tax-free status.

 

[cayugacuse]

does it say that on the ticket?

I don't pretend to know what the right move is, but in my experience with unions, and the point Digger tried to make, is that typically they help themselves more than the people they represent. 70% of NBA players bankrupt within 5 years of retirement... that is staggering. So for at least 70% of those players, that representation was useless,

I think Jay makes a good point in that by the IRS definition of an employee it seems like the athletes are employees, plus coaches can go where they want, players, can't etc.

I think the best way to work this out is provide an alternative to college athletics as a means to get to a pro sport rather than forcing kids to go through college as the not for profit NFL does.

Your first paragraph is hilarious...Taking Digger's lead here and your statement about unions is anything but "typical". Blaming unions for NBA players pissing away there money is unbelievable. Wow...

 

[Crusty]

The NCAA was formed with the sole purpose of protecting student athletes. Teddy Roosevelt summoned college presidents to the White House to pressure, them under threat of legislation, to make reforms to college football. There had been repeated injuries and deaths and there was public pressure to protect athletes who had not voice.

It has morphed into a money making machine of staggering proportions and athletes still have no voice. The specious argument that they are student athletes is laughable.

The annual scandals and cheating at institutions of all shapes and sizes are the result of the corruption caused by a huge money grab. The schools getting rich off of these kids can no longer maintain the moral high ground. IMO it is out of control and something has to change.

 

[Full_Rebar]

If players want to be paid then they should join a pro (development) league. I suspect this development league would be far less glamorous than the current high profile apprenticeships at the country's colleges and universities.

If you're a top football prospect, would you prefer to make $50-100k and play in front of 4,000 fans, or earn a degree and have access to top-flight facilities and play in front of 80,000+ fans. While some will opt for the former, will there really be enough players to form a league? While most players hope for an NFL opportunity, very few actually reach that goal. For the vast majority, utilizing their athletic skills to acquire an education and present them with a better future than they'd otherwise have would be the smart route.

Nothing personal, but if you asked this question to the P5 football and hoops teams, I'm guessing it would be close to 80/20 for getting paid and being in a developmental league. Look at how many early-entry guys are in this year's NFL Draft- they aren't all early round picks.

It's easy for us to hold to this notion that most student-athletes think about their post-playing days, but right now every single SU player who finished his eligibility is working out with the idea of making a NFL camp. Some might have other jobs or grad school lined up, but all of them are preparing for pro day.

The NCAA should change before the NFL forms a developmental league and takes these players.

 

[All4SU]

Nothing personal, but if you asked this question to the P5 football and hoops teams, I'm guessing it would be close to 80/20 for getting paid and being in a developmental league. Look at how many early-entry guys are in this year's NFL Draft- they aren't all early round picks.

It's easy for us to hold to this notion that most student-athletes think about their post-playing days, but right now every single SU player who finished his eligibility is working out with the idea of making a NFL camp. Some might have other jobs or grad school lined up, but all of them are preparing for pro day.

The NCAA should change before the NFL forms a developmental league and takes these players.

I think you miss the point. I say NFL please take these players.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I'm agreeing with you, but for a different reason. A degree in Sociology or General Studies isn't a life-changer. Would rather see these athletes learn business/life skills. The reason that so many pro athletes go broke is because they invest with "friends and family" without understanding what are good investments. They don't need to take Philosophy, they need a strong background in personal finance.

 

[OrangePA]

Who said it was worthless? Nobody - merely that it is not enough. As for your likeness - what is your market value? When SU puts your picture on a sweatshirt and sells it then call a lawyer but until then you granted your permission to use your likeness, voice etc when you bought your ticket.

It's More Than Enough.

 

[orlandoorange]

Your first paragraph is hilarious...Taking Digger's lead here and your statement about unions is anything but "typical". Blaming unions for NBA players pissing away there money is unbelievable. Wow...

cayugacuse after you finish jumping to a conclusion, re-read that please. I didn't blame the unions for anything. I pointed out that 70% of their members were broke within 5 years and said that if that stat is true that is crazy. I guess my question to you would be, how did the union help those players? and how much did those players pay the union for the help that they received?

 

[SmilinBob]

As much as I agree with players getting some money I also have to wonder where schools like Buffalo or Toledo can get this money to pay their football/basketball players? Would title 9 ask what about the woman, do they get paid for basketball or another sport to equal this? Yes, SEC schools do pay some baseball coaches 1 million but these schools mentioned above don't even pay their football coaches this.