Having different opinions on the board | Syracusefan.com

Having different opinions on the board

A

Alsacs

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
63,219
Like
90,071
Analyzing the direction of the program doesn't mean people don't like or appreciate JB.
He is 72 years old and the program has had a lot of drama the last 5 years.
I personally support JB now that the situation has crystallized. I did want change but that change was for Hopkins to get his chance. Now that Hop is gone letting JB stay as long as he wants is the right decision I believe.
99.9% of SU fans love JB. However, it seems like people want to make it seem like you are team JB or you are team hate JB.
That isn't fair.
I wish the program didn't have all the drama and that doesn't mean JB isn't appreciated.
I mean the program has had problems and whether or not they were overblown the some of that responsibility falls on the HC.
People want to make any criticism like its personal.
People can disagree.
To say it's more negative now I guess I can see the argument. I just don't happen to agree with it. If people don't give credit when good happens I can see the argument. If people give credit then its just raw emotion.
I believe in today's culture sadly the negative gets more attention but it doesn't mean the positives are ignored.
Discourse means when you agree with something discuss it and tell the person why. Calling it out without debate doesn't help the problem. I personally can be strong opinated annoying and loud but know I will debate anything I say when the person wants.
Nobody is always right.
 
Alsacs,

You have quite a few good points in your post. You also have some points that not everyone can see, or maybe it is admit to seeing.
This place is first, and foremost a fan forum. It is a place to gather and discuss SU sports. It is human nature that different people will have different viewpoints. And that is O.K.
I think the biggest issue is the apparent need for many posters to start a thread to complain about the recruiting or the coaching of the players. That's fine. But when you have thread after thread that is realistically just a rehash of a previous thread, what is the point?

Is it any wonder that some (including me) get the sense of negativity when there are 10 different threads with people basically b*tching about whatever aspect of the program they feel is wrong? Or, a thread gets hijacked, and taken in the same direction. (wish it was only 10, but realistically, if you actually pay attention to it, i feel you will find that the number is quite a bit higher than that)

It is really lovely over on the recruiting board when a thread about a potential recruit gets hijacked and turned into a 3, 5 or 10 page b*tch session about the state of whatever they have a b*tch about.

The thing is, we are supposed to be fans of the program. We should at all times want what is best for the program. It would be nice if people thought before they posted about what they are about to post and think about whether it really sounds like it is coming from a fan of the program, or just someone who wants things their way. Once in a great while, the people who run the program actually do know more than you or I, and have a much better idea at how to deal with/fix the issue. After all, we are talking about their livelyhood. Fortunately for me, my job and my entire way of supporting my family and lifestyle do not rely upon me knowing how to run a college basketball program.

We aren't all just Rah! Rah! people. Sometimes we just realize that there are other people out there running the program that know far more than we do, and we accept that at times, though it may not seem like what they are doing is smart or makes sense, they know far more than we ever will.
 
jgeorge322 said:
Someone shouldve asked jb the following "any thought to stepping aside now and letting mike takeover this year?" Wouldve loved to see the answer to that question.
Expand...
It would look something like this:
05135726_.jpg
 
jgeorge322 said:
Someone shouldve asked jb the following "any thought to stepping aside now and letting mike takeover this year?" Wouldve loved to see the answer to that question.
Expand...

This would be interesting.
 
Love Hop, but didn't think he was the man to replace JB. Hope he does well at Washington. He should have taken a job somewhere else ten years ago.
Love JB, but I'm ready for a change. I'm getting old and need variety in my life.
Hoping Wildhack has a vision for the future. I think he does.
 
jgeorge322 said:
Someone shouldve asked jb the following "any thought to stepping aside now and letting mike takeover this year?" Wouldve loved to see the answer to that question.
Expand...
Or was there any thought of stepping aside when Hop told you he was leaving. That was a question that could have been asked as well to the athletic Director.
 
Alsacs said:
Analyzing the direction of the program doesn't mean people don't like or appreciate JB.
He is 72 years old and the program has had a lot of drama the last 5 years.
I personally support JB now that the situation has crystallized. I did want change but that change was for Hopkins to get his chance. Now that Hop is gone letting JB stay as long as he wants is the right decision I believe.
99.9% of SU fans love JB. However, it seems like people want to make it seem like you are team JB or you are team hate JB.
That isn't fair.
I wish the program didn't have all the drama and that doesn't mean JB isn't appreciated.
I mean the program has had problems and whether or not they were overblown the some of that responsibility falls on the HC.
People want to make any criticism like its personal.
People can disagree.
To say it's more negative now I guess I can see the argument. I just don't happen to agree with it. If people don't give credit when good happens I can see the argument. If people give credit then its just raw emotion.
I believe in today's culture sadly the negative gets more attention but it doesn't mean the positives are ignored.
Discourse means when you agree with something discuss it and tell the person why. Calling it out without debate doesn't help the problem. I personally can be strong opinated annoying and loud but know I will debate anything I say when the person wants.
Nobody is always right.
Expand...

The bigger problem is the tendency to want to boil everything down to simple black and white answers. Running a program is a complex and messy business. That includes recruiting, roster management, long term strategy, resource allocation, player development, community relations, etc. Nobody is perfect at all that, hell probably nobody is even good at all that. JB used to be a stud recruiter back in the day, maybe not so much anymore. He's preposterously bad at image management and projecting the brand message of SU basketball. He's also pretty good at personnel management (low turnover in assistants as an example). He has been amazingly consistent as a high performing coach in an extremely unforgiving competitive environment (BE then ACC), but he's rarely if ever been at the top of the heap of his profession.

Seems the most vocal among us wants to peg the meter to full scale panic about the program's future. Recruiting is horrible. On-court performance is terrible and getting worse. Coaches are lazy, have lost their skill for XO's, are being left behind by trends in the game, are incapable of dealing with the new broader context of college BB and so all is doomed. Anyone who points out incontrovertible facts opposing that viewpoint is labelled a rube, apologist, or Pollyanna. It stifles real discussion. There is a very large gray area between perfect and disaster. We exist in that gray area, just as all other programs do. Jay Wright just got bounced in the 2nd round with the overall #1 seed, K got his behind handed to him by a lower seeded team smoking him for 65 points in the second half of a 2nd round flameout as a 2 seed, another early upset that has become somewhat frequent for him of late. Pitino, bounced before the Sweet 16 with a 2 seed. Does anyone think those programs are in decline? I don't. They are in a wide gray area between great and terrible. Should K be forced out of his job? I don't think so either.
 
Stevenson said:
Love Hop, but didn't think he was the man to replace JB. Hope he does well at Washington. He should have taken a job somewhere else ten years ago.
Love JB, but I'm ready for a change. I'm getting old and need variety in my life.
Hoping Wildhack has a vision for the future. I think he does.
Expand...
simply stated. sums me up to a tee, speaks volumes. funny, i hear more from posts like this, than i do from paragraphs of stuff that is written and i have also wrote. i need to take a lesson from you.:bang:
 
HoustonCuse said:
The bigger problem is the tendency to want to boil everything down to simple black and white answers. Running a program is a complex and messy business. That includes recruiting, roster management, long term strategy, resource allocation, player development, community relations, etc. Nobody is perfect at all that, hell probably nobody is even good at all that. JB used to be a stud recruiter back in the day, maybe not so much anymore. He's preposterously bad at image management and projecting the brand message of SU basketball. He's also pretty good at personnel management (low turnover in assistants as an example). He has been amazingly consistent as a high performing coach in an extremely unforgiving competitive environment (BE then ACC), but he's rarely if ever been at the top of the heap of his profession.

Seems the most vocal among us wants to peg the meter to full scale panic about the program's future. Recruiting is horrible. On-court performance is terrible and getting worse. Coaches are lazy, have lost their skill for XO's, are being left behind by trends in the game, are incapable of dealing with the new broader context of college BB and so all is doomed. Anyone who points out incontrovertible facts opposing that viewpoint is labelled a rube, apologist, or Pollyanna. It stifles real discussion. There is a very large gray area between perfect and disaster. We exist in that gray area, just as all other programs do. Jay Wright just got bounced in the 2nd round with the overall #1 seed, K got his behind handed to him by a lower seeded team smoking him for 65 points in the second half of a 2nd round flameout as a 2 seed, another early upset that has become somewhat frequent for him of late. Pitino, bounced before the Sweet 16 with a 2 seed. Does anyone think those programs are in decline? I don't. They are in a wide gray area between great and terrible. Should K be forced out of his job? I don't think so either.
Expand...
Good post.

Discussion should happen. People have a right to look at macro problems the program is facing and feel frustrated. What post was talking about is all criticism Ian being labeled as full blown JB.

I personally watched that PC with an open mind and wanted to see JB act differently now that he is staying. I felt he was cringe worthy with his unfiltered responses.

That opinion can be debated and people can disagree. This board has devolved to where if people disagree they go to label all dissent as haters and people who agree are unhinged.

That is a problem. Debate is gone. There are plenty of things on this board I have no interest in. I ignore it or if I care I will engage it and express my opinion. What is happening is people attack what they disagree with and do it for click likes.

It's not discourse.
 
Alsacs said:
Good post.

Discussion should happen. People have a right to look at macro problems the program is facing and feel frustrated. What post was talking about is all criticism Ian being labeled as full blown JB.

I personally watched that PC with an open mind and wanted to see JB act "differently" now that he is staying. I felt he was cringeworthy with his unfiltered responses.

That opinion can be debated and people can disagree. This board has devolved to where if people disagree they go to label all dissent as haters and people who agree are unhinged.

That is a problem. Debate is gone. There are plenty of things on this board I have no interest in. I ignore it or if I care I will engage it and express my opinion. What is happening is people attack what they disagree with and do it for click likes.

It's not discourse.
Expand...
And therein lies the rub.
Not to single you out but I believe a lot of fans face this conundrum when it relates to JB, and sometimes it extends to their perspective of the team and program as a whole.
A lot of the criticism seems personal in nature like they just don't like "JB the man" & his personality. This is fine, of course- everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Where it gets annoying is when "JB the jerk" becomes, "JB the incompetent, conniving, and clueless HC, who is leading a flawed and ultimately doomed to fail program".
Those two things are mutually exclusive- you can dislike the man, but you can't question his loyalty, commitment, and competency at his job. His record speaks for itself, whether the negatoids like it or not.
And that doesn't mean that he's above reproach, no man is. But this idea that SU basketball is not only on the precipice of, but well into a death spiral of doom, is patently ridiculous, IMO.
 
DoctorBombay said:
And therein lies the rub.
Not to single you out but I believe a lot of fans face this conundrum when it relates to JB, and sometimes it extends to their perspective of the team and program as a whole.
A lot of the criticism seems personal in nature like they just don't like "JB the man" & his personality. This is fine, of course- everyone's entitled to their opinion.
Where it gets annoying is when "JB the jerk" becomes, "JB the incompetent, conniving, and clueless HC, who is leading a flawed and ultimately doomed to fail program".
Those two things are mutually exclusive- you can dislike the man, but you can't question his loyalty, commitment, and competency at his job. His record speaks for itself, whether the negatoids like it or not.
And that doesn't mean that he's above reproach, no man is. But this idea that SU basketball is not only on the precipice of, but well into a death spiral of doom, is patently ridiculous, IMO.
Expand...
I don't question the man's loyalty.
You can question a 72 year old man's commitment or competency.
Dasher outlined it perfectly on Sunday. He doesn't have the same energy he had 20 years ago.
JB has earned the right to go out his way now.
I don't want to criticize the guy. I do believe questioning his recruiting involvement the last year is legitimate. He was phasing himself out as Hop was taking over and that was being negatively used against us.

Again my post is directed at the people who lump ALL CRITICISM IN ONE POT. I know their are some posters who are critical of everything. Go after them and people should tell them why they are wrong. Having an opinion which isn't the same as yours(not directed at you) doesn't need a post saying that person is negative or this place is devolving instead take their opinion on.
Instead it appears certain people want an echo chamber where if people are critical they want to go after them no matter the point being made. I admit I am loud and can be annoying but my opinions always have logic to them. They can be wrong and plenty of them are. However to those people who want an echo chamber they are Just as ignorant as they claim my style is.

Nobody is right. If we want only positive posts then put a statement on top telling people what is okay to say and what isn't.
 
Alsacs said:
I don't question the man's loyalty.
You can question a 72 year old man's commitment or competency.
Dasher outlined it perfectly on Sunday. He doesn't have the same energy he had 20 years ago.
JB has earned the right to go out his way now.
I don't want to criticize the guy. I do believe questioning his recruiting involvement the last year is legitimate. He was phasing himself out as Hop was taking over and that was being negatively used against us.

Again my post is directed at the people who lump ALL CRITICISM IN ONE POT. I know their are some posters who are critical of everything. Go after them and people should tell them why they are wrong. Having an opinion which isn't the same as yours(not directed at you) doesn't need a post saying that person is negative or this place is devolving instead take their opinion on.
Instead it appears certain people want an echo chamber where if people are critical they want to go after them no matter the point being made. I admit I am loud and can be annoying but my opinions always have logic to them. They can be wrong and plenty of them are. However to those people who want an echo chamber they are Just as ignorant as they claim my style is.

Nobody is right. If we want only positive posts then put a statement on top telling people what is okay to say and what isn't.
Expand...
Good post, and agreed.
Constructive criticism is the goal obviously. It's just the echo chamber of irrational doom that gets my goat. Personally, I'm tired of the zone, and wouldn't mind shaking things up a little. I'm also sick of being on the bubble these last few seasons. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate how effective that defense has been and how big a role its played in the program's success. I'm not gonna say "the zone sucks, period...let's scrap it", as I've seen from some quarters. It's almost like some folks, in their haste and zeal to criticize, forget WHO we are, and what "WE" as a program have accomplished. I cringe at feeling like I have to defend SU's record of achievement, and I do believe that's mostly due to some posters personality problems with JB. JMHO
 
I don't want to criticize the guy. I do believe questioning his recruiting involvement the last year is legitimate. He was phasing himself out as Hop was taking over and that was being negatively used against us. [/QUOTE said:
JB basically admitted to this in the PC. And it calls into question whether Hop is going to be a good recruiter at UW. We didn't get some players because they wanted to play for Boeheim. They did not want to come play for Hop or they would have come. That said, It is a very different thing for Hop to recruit players to come play for him than it was to come play for Jim Boeheim.
Expand...
 
I didn't see the press conference, but I can imagine it was mediocre at best and damaging at worst. JB is horrible at that part of the job. I can accept that if he is great at other parts of the job. He has been great on average at those parts but the last few years have been extremely uneven. I understand people being very nervous. Has his performance as a coach declined? I actually don't think so. I think he has had some roster management difficulties over the past 5 years which have made it very hard to be successful on the court, but he has still achieved significant successes. Our regular season performance in the ACC has been, lets say average, but we do not want to be an average program. Some say we have become Wake Forest or NC State or Georgia Tech. They'll point to some stats. But I don't see those programs winning major preseason tournaments like Maui, going to final fours, etc. There is a mix here.

As to the future: is recruiting terrible? I don't think so. I knew last summer that the program was taking a major risk. They recruited all 5 star guys who were a cut above the level of most of our targets over the past 10 years. I knew that we'd likely miss on a lot of those guys - of course we would, the competition is intense for those players. I knew that missing on those guys would cause severe unrest with a lot of our fans. We missed on all of them (so far) and so that unrest has been even more inflamed. Here's why it is so tough: many of the same people who are outraged at the lack of success in landing those players are the same ones previously outraged that we were not going after those type of players. Now you know why we didn't - it is a high risk/high reward strategy and the boss has to be ready to deal with the consequences of those risks even when the fans have no clue of what they were asking for. Still we have landed reasonably well with the 17 guys we have so far and will get a couple others. Are they the guys we wanted? No. But that is what you get when you swing for the fences and miss. It doesn't mean we are doomed or that we will never hit the ball again. Babe Ruth struck out over 1300 times.

Should Boeheim still be our coach? I say why not? He's 72. He has shown he can still win at a high level. His NCAA tournament performance is at career peak levels right now. I understand we fell short this year. That can happen to any program. I still look at K and what became of his team. If we had that roster and produced the season Duke got this year, the Dome would have already been burned down by a mob and we'd be in an unbelievable crisis. It happens. This is not women's basketball where only one or two teams actually compete. Believe it or not, there are other people out there trying to win just as much as we are. They do get a say in happens to us, no matter who our coach is.

To address our primary issues we need:
A good recruiter/assistant coach
A better thought out and executed roster management strategy that addresses early attrition
JB to get more engaged in the future of the program
A couple good gets in 17 and a 1 or 2 studs in 18

I think it is reasonable to expect all of that can happen. Is it a given? Nope. Is it a given that none of it will happen? Nope.
 
CTO used to say "We can disagree without being disagreeable".

Where is she, by the way?
 
Like our current society, this board has become so very polarized; with person attacks being more common than not. This place would be more user friendly, if we ceased that type of personal attacking.Having said that, let's talk basketball and Syracuse basket, moving forward.
IMO,
We need the new assistant to be a proven recruiter with enough contacts to hit the ground running for both 2017 & 1018. In the best case, he would also be a proven big man coach.
We need to diversify both our offense and defense; JB has been involved with USA basketball and around some of the best minds in basketball and yet we see nothing innovative coming from this experience.
I am not bashing JB, I am stating a fact.
JB didn't cause Hop to leave; he created an uncertain atmosphere where Hop finally found the right alternative route to HC and took it.
Change is the only thing constant, in nature. SU hoops coaching must include change; in both the development of players and the the way our offense and defense are, not only diverse, but keep the other team off-balance.
We also need to find ways to win, at a higher level, during the season. This will help us avoid these bubble situations or, even worse, playing in the NIT.
These are my thoughts, for today. I am not taking sides in this JB or not debate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
169,607
Messages
4,841,538
Members
5,981
Latest member
SYRtoBOS

Share this page

Online statistics

Members online
256
Guests online
1,485
Total visitors
1,741
Totals may include hidden visitors.


...
Top Bottom