I am watching clips why do we have non-shooting threat at the top setting picks

[Alsacs]

I am watching our offense and I don't get why we have Coleman/Roberson at the top of the circle setting picks.

If we going to set picks I would Lydon in that spot as he could easily step back and hit 3's in those spots. Watching our offensive cold spells it because we become stagnant and too depend on 1 on 1 plays to score.

When Coleman/Roberson set picks it causes 2 defenders to guard G or Howard and makes it harder times. I love putting Roberson in pick and rolls when he goes towards the basket. He makes plays in those situations.

Can Coach Orange or somebody who knows the game breakdown our offense and explain why we do this?

 

[CU44SE]

Your right, the person that should be setting the pick is a player like Lydon who can pick and pop or even pick and roll to the basket. Even when Coleman picks and rolls to the bucket he is too far out. The only thing he is doing is setting a pick, he is no threat from that area. Where as if he stayed down low, you have the option of him cleaning up the misses.

 

[2-3zone]

I agree with the OP

When Lydon is in the game he should be setting the screen

Without Lydon in the game Roberson should set the screen because he rolls hard to the basket and has a better chance of making a play in the lane

 

[upperdeck]

im confused because we use lydon all the time at the top. if you dont set the pick with the center what else do you do with him he is just in the way and they wont guard him anywhere else cause he cant catch or shoot.

 

[Alsacs]

im confused because we use lydon all the time at the top. if you dont set the pick with the center what else do you do with him he is just in the way and they wont guard him anywhere else cause he cant catch or shoot.

Lydon doesn't set the pick as much as you think. I am going thru the games. He definitely does it a little bit and when does set those picks he has gotten open looks a lot. For example the Georgia Tech, Notre Dame end of half plays were perfect pick and pops for Lydon.

However, Coleman and Roberson are setting those picks a lot recently and it caused us a lot of empty trips and hero ball. Coleman gets the ball at the top of circle 3-5 times a game and never does anything but just pass it back.

Coleman needs to stop setting those picks and park his butt deep and just go for boards or paint touches. He catches the ball up top way too much.

Roberson sets those picks as well and when he runs the pick and roll he gets fouled a lot and does good things. Him getting the ball in the perimeter is bad as well.

The only bigs who should be setting screens are ones who can either shoot the ball or roll to the rim.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Yes. Intrigued as well. Don't really get it. Please somebody help us lay people out who want to know.

 

[rrlbees]

We use the 5 to set the high screen as a regular part of our offense and have for a long while. Remember Forth? AO did it a lot. Our 5's all have. Lydon does it too but maybe a bit less only because he can do other things in the offense. The reason for the screen isn't necessarily for the pick and role, which isn't really part of our offense but is strictly fir given the guard options of using it.

 

[Alsacs]

Just for the record I wasn't talking about just this year. I made this post because I was watching old games like 2003 Texas game, 2012 Ohio State, and others where we had the 5 set those screens. Those screens hurt the guard almost as much as they helped.

I don't get why we don't use a shooting option in those screens. I watched the 2012 Wisconsin, 2010 Gonzaga and we did just that. We used Southerland in 2012 and Wes Johnson beautifully in these pick and pops with Scoop Jardine/Brandon Triche and got them open 3 pt looks if their defender hedged.

I don't get why we use centers who can't shoot in those spots. Their defenders are never going to not hedge because the center can't pop the shot unless its Lydon.

Against Georgia Tech/Notre Dame this year we used in Lydon in these 5 pick and rolls and both times Lydon got an open look and buried both of them right before halftime.

 

[dasher]

Just for the record I wasn't talking about just this year. I made this post because I was watching old games like 2003 Texas game, 2012 Ohio State, and others where we had the 5 set those screens. Those screens hurt the guard almost as much as they helped.

I don't get why we don't use a shooting option in those screens. I watched the 2012 Wisconsin, 2010 Gonzaga and we did just that. We used Southerland in 2012 and Wes Johnson beautifully in these pick and pops with Scoop Jardine/Brandon Triche and got them open 3 pt looks if their defender hedged.

I don't get why we use centers who can't shoot in those spots. Their defenders are never going to not hedge because the center can't pop the shot unless its Lydon.

Against Georgia Tech/Notre Dame this year we used in Lydon in these 5 pick and rolls and both times Lydon got an open look and buried both of them right before halftime.

Maybe because they set better screens that are much tougher to get by for a defender. I know we haven't had much success over the last 40 years but hopefully Hop can fix this and get us on the right track. Jb talks about this. He has coached over 1000 college basketball games. He has been an ass't with K and top NBA coaches and players. He has sat and talked basketball with John Wooden. He has also won 75% of his games and has to all time best record in the big east. A great conference. In my opinion, it's tough for guys who at best played high school basketball for a gym teacher to question his offense and defense. Now, this is a message board and that is what we do. But sometimes I think it is a little silly. Call his radio show. He does answer questions like that. He does have a reason. And for the record, I prefer having Lydon set that screen as well. But I know that I don't know.

 

[Alsacs]

Maybe because they set better screens that are much tougher to get by for a defender. I know we haven't had much success over the last 40 years but hopefully Hop can fix this and get us on the right track.

Wow. So basically I make a legit point and it means I hate JB and everything he stands for?

I think asking a question isn't exactly sacrilegious. As I said before JB has had a shooter in the pick in the situations and it has worked beautifully. I mean I gave the freaking examples. Wes Johnson in 2010 against Gonzaga was the pick guy up top and he got plenty of open looks and buried them that game.

If we put a shooter in the screen role it creates more space why can't I make this point? Coleman/Forth/Christmas type bigs should not be setting that screen. Their defenders hedge and unless you have a Dion Waiters freak athlete that isn't easy for guards to get around.

 

[dasher]

Wow. So basically I make a legit point and it means I hate JB and everything he stands for?

I think asking a question isn't exactly sacrilegious. As I said before JB has had a shooter in the pick in the situations and it has worked beautifully. I mean I gave the freaking examples. Wes Johnson in 2010 against Gonzaga was the pick guy up top and he got plenty of open looks and buried them that game.

If we put a shooter in the screen role it creates more space why can't I make this point? Coleman/Forth/Christmas type bigs should not be setting that screen. Their defenders hedge and unless you have a Dion Waiters freak athlete that isn't easy for guards to get around.

Please cite where I said you hate JB? I said that running the offense the way jb does it has been successful and that you and me and posters that question why he does it the way he does it, don't know what he knows. Do you disagree? Do you think by watching clips that you have figured it out and jb doesn't? I would disagree with you on that.

 

[Alsacs]

Please cite where I said you hate JB? I said that running the offense the way jb does it has been successful and that you and me and posters that question why he does it the way he does it, don't know what he knows. Do you disagree? Do you think by watching clips that you have figured it out and jb doesn't? I would disagree with you on that.

I think JB does a good job but this offensive system he runs tends to have dry spells in games and that costs him big games. JB plays the percentages game and I believe he thinks this stuff will over the course balance out.

I don't want to go over old games but my point is this we waste offensive possession because we put a non-shooting threat to make a jumper in a position to touch the ball in a spot they can do nothing but pass it back to guard to make a play.

I am asking for the coaching expert to break it down. General20, Coach Orange RF2044 are among those people who do this for the board and I was trying to get one of them to breakdown why a team would use a non-shooting option in that spot. I am sure there is a reason.

I believe JB is a defensive expert but his offensive have been lacking. Coach K has added the zone to his teams learning from JB. I would love to see some Duke offensive philosophies adopted here.

 

[Brooky03]

Bringing the 5 up to set picks pulls the defending center away from the rim. If G manages to turn the corner, that not only gives him two of the easiest points he'll ever see, but also a pretty solid chance at an emphatic dunk. If the defender hedges hard, we either hit the screener diving to the rim (we don't do that often with this personnel) or basically hit the reset button and try it again or move on to something else. No harm here, other than a few seconds ticking off the shot clock. If the defender sits back, well... he's an idiot but we should thank him for the 3 points.

 

[General20]

Bringing the 5 up to set picks pulls the defending center away from the rim. If G manages to turn the corner, that not only gives him two of the easiest points he'll ever see, but also a pretty solid chance at an emphatic dunk. If the defender hedges hard, we either hit the screener diving to the rim (we don't do that often with this personnel) or basically hit the reset button and try it again or move on to something else. No harm here, other than a few seconds ticking off the shot clock. If the defender sits back, well... he's an idiot but we should thank him for the 3 points.

This is it. Its to pull the rim protector away from the rim and create space in the lane. If the center is going to get pulled out we are going to do it as often as we can.

On both offense and defense, Boeheim is a master of getting our players where he wants them to be and opposing players where they don't want to be. He is a battle field general in that sense. He sees the territory he wants to own.

If an opposing center is going to follow his man away from the basket, you can be damn sure Boeheim will take advantage and keep that center away from the basket and away from the place where he will be most effective as much as possible.

 

[bevosu]

Many times this season the pick is followed by a roll to the rim by Coleman, Roberson, or Lydon. Sometimes we actually pass them the ball when they are open and sometimes they score.

But...our guards are not great at hitting an open roller. Most of the time (when the roller is open) they don't even attempt the pass. It's a conservative approach...probably justified, given the offensive efficiency of a couple of our rollers (hands, moves around the hoop).

I see 3-4 totally open pick and roll plays every game where our guards (especially Cooney) don't make the pass. maybe it's a vision thing? Maybe it's a JB thing?

 

[SUMBA]

This is it. Its to pull the rim protector away from the rim and create space in the lane. If the center is going to get pulled out we are going to do it as often as we can.

On both offense and defense, Boeheim is a master of getting our players where he wants them to be and opposing players where they don't want to be. He is a battle field general in that sense. He sees the territory he wants to own.

If an opposing center is going to follow his man away from the basket, you can be damn sure Boeheim will take advantage and keep that center away from the basket and away from the place where he will be most effective as much as possible.

It also negates the defenders ability to switch on the screen. Defenders typically have the choice of fighting through a screen or switching men. In this case a switch would leave the defensive 5 guarding our point guard and their point guard defending our center. In that case the center should roll hard to the hoop in order to exploit the mismatch. There is a distinct advantage when the defense's ability to switch on the screen is removed.

 

[Knicks411]

Couldn't another reason also just be that JB thinks Coleman sets better picks than Lydon or Tyler?

 

[NineOneSeven]

Keita did too...except when he got called for moving screens which seemed to happen every time (this is hyperbole).

Couldn't another reason also just be that JB thinks Coleman sets better picks than Lydon or Tyler?

 

[Jack Hall]

Just for the record I wasn't talking about just this year. I made this post because I was watching old games like 2003 Texas game, 2012 Ohio State, and others where we had the 5 set those screens. Those screens hurt the guard almost as much as they helped.

I don't get why we don't use a shooting option in those screens. I watched the 2012 Wisconsin, 2010 Gonzaga and we did just that. We used Southerland in 2012 and Wes Johnson beautifully in these pick and pops with Scoop Jardine/Brandon Triche and got them open 3 pt looks if their defender hedged.

I don't get why we use centers who can't shoot in those spots. Their defenders are never going to not hedge because the center can't pop the shot unless its Lydon.

Against Georgia Tech/Notre Dame this year we used in Lydon in these 5 pick and rolls and both times Lydon got an open look and buried both of them right before halftime.

You just answered your own question- JB used Forth (a complete non shooter) to set the majority of picks at top of key in 2003 and he won the Natl Championship. Ie it worked...

Having said that i do agree with you in many respects and i expect Lydon to set some screens at top of the key vs zags. We shall see...

 

[Jack Hall]

Couldn't another reason also just be that JB thinks Coleman sets better picks than Lydon or Tyler?

Thats certainly part of it but sometimes that doesnt even matter. Ie sometimes the driver refuses the screen and sometimes the other team switches irregardless of whether the screen was good or not. Some of the most effective defenses against G set a very hard edge, and many times they do that before the screen is even set imo

 

[Jack Hall]

Wow. So basically I make a legit point and it means I hate JB and everything he stands for?

I think asking a question isn't exactly sacrilegious. As I said before JB has had a shooter in the pick in the situations and it has worked beautifully. I mean I gave the freaking examples. Wes Johnson in 2010 against Gonzaga was the pick guy up top and he got plenty of open looks and buried them that game.

If we put a shooter in the screen role it creates more space why can't I make this point? Coleman/Forth/Christmas type bigs should not be setting that screen. Their defenders hedge and unless you have a Dion Waiters freak athlete that isn't easy for guards to get around.

Id like to see some of both strategies but its not my team and i suck as a coach

 

[dasher]

I think JB does a good job but this offensive system he runs tends to have dry spells in games and that costs him big games. JB plays the percentages game and I believe he thinks this stuff will over the course balance out.

I don't want to go over old games but my point is this we waste offensive possession because we put a non-shooting threat to make a jumper in a position to touch the ball in a spot they can do nothing but pass it back to guard to make a play.

I am asking for the coaching expert to break it down. General20, Coach Orange RF2044 are among those people who do this for the board and I was trying to get one of them to breakdown why a team would use a non-shooting option in that spot. I am sure there is a reason.

I believe JB is a defensive expert but his offensive have been lacking. Coach K has added the zone to his teams learning from JB. I would love to see some Duke offensive philosophies adopted here.

I believe our offensive problems come from the fact that since we recruit for the zone with big guards, that tend to be slower than the smaller, faster guards other schools have. . We don't get the 1 on none breaks. the 2 on 1 breaks. The 3 on 2 breaks as often as other teams. We are always playing 5 vs 5 and that is the hardest way to try and score in basketball.

 

[Dave85]

Wow. So basically I make a legit point and it means I hate JB and everything he stands for?

That's not it. For year's we've run high pick and rolls. I like it when it works. Even when it doesn't the the threat of the roll opens up uncontested 3 point shot attempts. I think all the 5s run the same play no matter who is in the 5 spot. JB generally keeps things very simple. They only have a few plays they practice. Over the season the players get really good at the simple stuff.

 

[Dave85]

I believe our offensive problems come from the fact that since we recruit for the zone with big guards, that tend to be slower than the smaller, faster guards other schools have. . We don't get the 1 on none breaks. the 2 on 1 breaks. The 3 on 2 breaks as often as other teams. We are always playing 5 vs 5 and that is the hardest way to try and score in basketball.

There are trade-offs in every engineering decision.

 

[kuethstheman]

It's a good and valid question with a couple likely answers: Coleman and Roberson set better picks (though nothing to write home about). Also when Lydon does it, he's not very aggressive either with presenting himself for a pass inside or popping to the 3-point line (or taking the shot, if he gets the ball). It's unusual for one of his picks to result in an advantage.