Orangeyes
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Is Syracuse among college basketball's royalty?
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Lawrinson14
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No. Not royal, but noble.
Kings = Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas
Archdukes = UCONN, UCLA (based on history)
Dukes = Florida, Mich St, Louisville,
Earls = Syracuse, Arizona, Indiana, Ohio St,
Kings = Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas
Archdukes = UCONN, UCLA (based on history)
Dukes = Florida, Mich St, Louisville,
Earls = Syracuse, Arizona, Indiana, Ohio St,
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HOFCeluck
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This is kind of like the Melo vs LeBron debate.
It only exists on Syracuse message boards.
It only exists on Syracuse message boards.
We aren't royalty and to think otherwise is to not live in reality. Are we an elite top 10 program? Yes, but the royalty of college hoops are Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA. The next tier is UConn,Louisville, Indiana, then the next tier is Florida, Michigan State, then the next tier is Arizona, Syracuse.
We aren't anywhere close to royalty to till you get atleast 4 NCs and 10 Final Fours. If UConn had more Final Fours they would be in the top tier, but only 4 NCs and 5 Final Fours makes them 6th. Duke has 4 NCs and 6 runnerup appearances. The rest of the royalty have atleast 5 NCs.
We aren't anywhere close to royalty to till you get atleast 4 NCs and 10 Final Fours. If UConn had more Final Fours they would be in the top tier, but only 4 NCs and 5 Final Fours makes them 6th. Duke has 4 NCs and 6 runnerup appearances. The rest of the royalty have atleast 5 NCs.
HoustonCuse
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I don't argue with this too much, but it really just depends on tournament success vs overall success. I'm not 100% sure which is more valid for a "title" like this. NCAA tournament success is so fleeting and sometimes arbitrary. As an example: would we call Butler elite? They made it to two championship games in a row. Something Syracuse and UConn for example have never done, although I think we would logically rank both ahead of Butler.
The reason this is a debate at all is because of Syracuse's elite overall win/loss record. Ranking #5 in total wins and #6 in win percentage and having done that while existing in an elite conference for 30+ years of their history is certainly rarified air. It's something UConn, Florida, Michigan State, and others with more championships cannot touch. To put this into perspective, even with a serious downturn in the Syracuse program and an improvement in the UConn program, resulting in them getting 10 wins per season more than us (an almost impossible figure), it would take over 30 years for them to pass us in wins. There is something extraordinarily significant about that type of historical performance - you can't just have a good run of 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years. You can't go 9-9 in conference and then get hot/sponsored-by-an-angel/take-out-second-mortgage-on-soul/whatever and win a NC and replicate that.
So it's really however you'd like to look at it. I think it is a combo of these things, but Syracuse has the hard part of the equation, the part that takes 50+ years to build. SU gets hot and wins another NC or two and you can start seriously thinking of the elite status.
You don't think butler hasn't been rewarded for those back to back NC game appearances they went from the Horizon League which has had 1 at-large team(Butler) in the last 10 years to the Big East where they will get annual home games against Xavier, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Creighton and can get an at-large bid now.
If Butler had won one of those two NC games they would be a lot higher on the pecking order. Winning a NC matters a lot. I could careless about the regular season its all about March. If you care about beating rivals in the regular season, but of the 31 regular season games I honestly may care greatly about 9 or 10 of them. Each person has their own standards, but I care more about NCs than I do regular season success. I appreciate regular season success, but championships matter.
If Butler had won one of those two NC games they would be a lot higher on the pecking order. Winning a NC matters a lot. I could careless about the regular season its all about March. If you care about beating rivals in the regular season, but of the 31 regular season games I honestly may care greatly about 9 or 10 of them. Each person has their own standards, but I care more about NCs than I do regular season success. I appreciate regular season success, but championships matter.
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HOFCeluck
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I've said this before. ... if your sample size is large enough ie over s large enough time span the tournament is not arbitrary. The same teams tend to make the deepest runs.
HoustonCuse
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I'm quite sure you are answering a different question than I am. Butler "being rewarded" for anything is not in any way a part of this conversation. The discussion of who is elite and who isn't is a necessarily comparative exercise. I brought up Butler to indicate that Syracuse would rank above Butler in anybody's measure even if they had won one or even both of the NC games they played in. I brought that up because it indicates that there are two components to being considered elite: overall success and NCAA tournament success. You need both to be considered elite. By definition, NCAA tournament success is far easier to get. In a single year, you can obtain total and complete success by winning it. You cannot simply bootstrap overall success in such a way; as indicated by UConn being 30 to 50 years of sustained outstanding performance away from passing us in that category.
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Alsacs said:
The tiers you speak of are your own and your opinion. Others may have different breakouts and cut offs. You say we are top 10 elite but then don't list us as top 10.
But we are an elite program.
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HOFCeluck
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It depends on how you define it. Because theres definitely a cut off separating the very best programs in history. ... And Syracuse is not in that group.
Good God fine we aren't top 10 we are 11th or 12th who cares. I said top 10 fine it should be top 15.
None of the teams I listed except Arizona have worse claims to royalty than Syracuse. Just because you are top 15 doesn't make you royalty. We don't have the postseason success to be royalty.
This is of course my opinion but my god the damn lack of objectivity is so telling if people think we are royalty. We have 1 NC, 2 runner ups, 5 Final fours that isn't royalty is just really good which is good but I can be objective and say so.
None of the teams I listed except Arizona have worse claims to royalty than Syracuse. Just because you are top 15 doesn't make you royalty. We don't have the postseason success to be royalty.
This is of course my opinion but my god the damn lack of objectivity is so telling if people think we are royalty. We have 1 NC, 2 runner ups, 5 Final fours that isn't royalty is just really good which is good but I can be objective and say so.
CusefanATL
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Im not putting florida, mich st, or even louisville ahead of us.
I think you have to put Lville ahead, more titles and final fours.
Mi
That program is above ours by far IMO
Michigan State has 2 NCs 1979, 2000, 1 runner up in 2009, Final Fours in 1979,1999,2000,2001,2005,2009,2010.
That program is above ours by far IMO
NineOneSeven
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The only one I'll consider is Florida, and they've done a fair bit. But again, to each his own.
Florida has 2 NCs 2006,2007, 1 runner up in 2000, Final Fours 1994, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2014. Also Florida has made the Elite Eight the last 4 years they are above us.
Louisville has 3 NCs 1980,1986,2013, Final Fours 1980, 1986, 2005, 2012, 2013
People need to be more objective we are elite but we are the bottom of the elite teams.
Louisville has 3 NCs 1980,1986,2013, Final Fours 1980, 1986, 2005, 2012, 2013
People need to be more objective we are elite but we are the bottom of the elite teams.
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Brooky03
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Are we talking basketball "royalty" or just about who's been good lately? Florida has the same number of Final Fours, Elite Eights mean very little in this conversation, and they capitalized very well on two years of elite talent for a grand total of one more National Title than us? That equates to them being more "royal" or elite? I don't think so.
Michigan State is a better program, but not by a ton. They only have one more Title and three more Final Fours. That is not head and shoulders above us.
Louisville is more "royal" and elite. UConn is more elite, not more royal (read: they have practically no tradition/history and the future is not looking good)
Bottom line: Nobody cares
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HOFCeluck
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I got a laugh out of "only" one more title.
We are elite but aren't royalty it just that plain and simple IMO. I am by no means saying anything bad about our program we are a great program and our fanbase, success has been great, but we aren't a royal program. That is my point I would rank Syracuse 11th or 12th all time which is great, but not royalty.
I
I believe you need either Duke's resume or enough rings for a entire hand to be a royal program. However, if we won another title we would move up to around 7th or 8th all time IMO.
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HOFCeluck
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I agree with this
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Brooky03
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okay
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Brooky03
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I wasn't arguing that we are "royal." Just pointing out that some team believed to be clearly ahead of us, aren't ahead by much. Yes, 1 more Title equals "not by much."
I'd have us around 8th, btw. I like to consider regular season success, postseason success, recent success, and history.
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