Is this the 2nd Best SU Team Ever?

[orange2win]

Don't be silly. Way too early to tell. However, consider this:

The AP poll has been operational since 1949. Over that long period, only five SU teams have been ranked No. 1 They are:

1. 1989-90: Ranked No. 1 for six weeks in a row. Unranked 0 weeks.
2. 2011-12: Ranked No. 1 for at least 2 weeks in a row. Unranked 0 weeks - so far.
3. 1987-88: Ranked No. 1 pre-season. Unranked 0 weeks
4. 2009-10: Ranked No. 1 for one week. Unranked 2 weeks.
5. 2002-03: Ranked No. 1 post-season. Highest ranking reg. season #11. Unranked 10 weeks.

The 1989-90 team also had the best season record in the polls, never falling lower than #11.
Second best season record was the 1990-91 team. Highest ranking #3. Lowest #8.

The 2011-12 team is blazing quite a trail. Let's see if holds.

For your convenience:
1987-88 Douglas, Coleman, Seikaly, Thompson, Roe, Duncan. Bower
1989-90 Owens, Coleman, Thompson, Edwards, Ellis, Johnson. Manning
1990-91 Owens, Johnson, Autrey, Ellis, Edwards, McRae, Hopkins
2002-03 Anthony, McNamara, Warrick, Duany, McNeil, Forth, Edelin, Pace
2009-10 Johnson, Rautins, Joseph, Jackson, Jardine, Triche, Onuaku

(Players arranged according to minutes played)

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I feel that problem with "best" team ever, is that so much weight is emphasized on the NCAA tournament. Such as what's a better team, the 1995-96 team that almost beat one of the greatest college basketball teams of all time, or the 90-91 team which I believe was the first 2 seed to be upset by a 15 seed. In terms of tournament success I feel that it goes 03, 87,96 but in terms of talent and regular season teams, 1988-89, 2009-10, 2002-03. It just feels like the incredible emphasis on the tournament skews ones perception of a great team.

 

[zeekay]

Agree that it's hard to say unless we separate regular season and tournament performance. I think 09-10 pre Onuaku injury beats the 03 championship team by double digits.

 

[Dcuse]

Don't be silly. Way too early to tell. However, consider this:

The AP poll has been operational since 1949. Over that long period, only five SU teams have been ranked No. 1 They are:

1. 1989-90: Ranked No. 1 for six weeks in a row. Unranked 0 weeks.
2. 2011-12: Ranked No. 1 for at least 2 weeks in a row. Unranked 0 weeks - so far.
3. 1987-88: Ranked No. 1 pre-season. Unranked 0 weeks
4. 2009-10: Ranked No. 1 for one week. Unranked 2 weeks.
5. 2002-03: Ranked No. 1 post-season. Highest ranking reg. season #11. Unranked 10 weeks.

The 1989-90 team also had the best season record in the polls, never falling lower than #11.
Second best season record was the 1990-91 team. Highest ranking #3. Lowest #8.

The 2011-12 team is blazing quite a trail. Let's see if holds.

For your convenience:
1987-88 Douglas, Coleman, Seikaly, Thompson, Roe, Duncan. Bower
1989-90 Owens, Coleman, Thompson, Edwards, Ellis, Johnson. Manning
1990-91 Owens, Johnson, Autrey, Ellis, Edwards, McRae, Hopkins
2002-03 Anthony, McNamara, Warrick, Duany, McNeil, Forth, Edelin, Pace
2009-10 Johnson, Rautins, Joseph, Jackson, Jardine, Triche, Onuaku

(Players arranged according to minutes played)

The 88-89 still would win the poll for the best Cuse team ever and they're not even in this group.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

The 88-89 still would win the poll for the best Cuse team ever and they're not even in this group.

I initially thought this. In retrospect, I think the 02-03 championship team is really underrated. I think that by the end of the season, that 02-03 team could compete with any. The best single player in Carmelo (Billy Owens was a phenom recruit and his numbers [as did DC's], pale in comparison to Anthony). Two quality twos at the top of the zone with length and athleticism to defend (Duany and Pace). Rising stars in Warrick and Edelin. Two legit bigs that could bang and eat up space (Forth and McNeil). And a super clutch shooter that could get any team to extend its defense beyond their comfort zone (McNamara). Honestly, i have never thought this way until tonight.

 

[suthrills]

I initially thought this. In retrospect, I think the 02-03 championship team is really underrated. I think that by the end of the season, that 02-03 team could compete with any. The best single player in Carmelo (Billy Owens was a phenom recruit and his numbers [as did DC's], pale in comparison to Anthony). Two quality twos at the top of the zone with length and athleticism to defend (Duany and Pace). Rising stars in Warrick and Edelin. Two legit bigs that could bang and eat up space (Forth and McNeil). And a super clutch shooter that could get any team to extend its defense beyond their comfort zone (McNamara). Honestly, i have never thought this way until tonight.

I think you need to recheck your numbers b/c there is no way DC's and BO's numbers pale in comparison to Carmelo's.
Owens Junior season average: 23.2 ppg and 11.6 rpg. He was dominant.
DC was just dominant from the second he stepped foot on campus and graduating as the all time leading rebounder in the history of College Bball says it all.

 

[Flacusian]

It's certainly a given that it is early to be making such comparisons... but isn't it groovy to have a team that is eliciting such a discussion as this? All I know is it's freakin' great to be Orange on Dec 19th 2011 baby!

 

[orange2win]

The 88-89 still would win the poll for the best Cuse team ever and they're not even in this group.

I do not use opinion in my analyses. Just data. You are correct, the 88-89 was very good. I only listed the first two teams with the best season record ever in the polls. The 88-89 team is a very close 3rd. Mainly because it dropped to #14 for two weeks in a row, although it actually climbed to #2 for one week.

If you do the analysis based only on personnel, the 88-89 is virtually tied with the 89-90 team as the best ever. Here are the results, with the NBA draft Nos. shown in brackets. Both of these teams had 6 NBA pros and 2 Euro pros. No other SU team comes close to this level of talent.

1. 1988-89 Douglas (28), Thompson (-), Coleman (1), Owens (3), Roe, Johnson (26), Harried, Manning (43)
2. 1989-90 Owens (3), Coleman (1), Thompson (-), Edwards, Ellis (22), Johnson (26), Manning (43), McRae (38).

Thompson is one of the rare SU players who did not get drafted, but still played in the NBA, while McRae did get drafted but never played in the NBA.

By comparison, our only championship team had just 2 NBA pros (Anthony (3) and Warrick (19). All the more credit to their great achievement.

 

[jordoo]

As far as compairing Melo to DC or Billy you have to remmeber that you are comparing guys that had 3 and 4 year careers at SU against Melo's one year as a freshman and had he played even a second season at SU he would have had rediculous numbers and much improved shooting percentages. Also you have to consider the differences in college bball then and now. It is easier now to come on the scene as a freshman and be dominant because so many great players leave as underclassman which leaves minutes and roles for new freshman as well as diminished overall competition. There are loads of things that make it hard to compare which is why its fun to discuss and people disagree so much. All I know is that Mello, Billy and DC are the type of guys who would be great players from the get go in any era.

 

[orange2win]

As far as compairing Melo to DC or Billy you have to remmeber that you are comparing guys that had 3 and 4 year careers at SU against Melo's one year as a freshman and had he played even a second season at SU he would have had rediculous numbers and much improved shooting percentages. Also you have to consider the differences in college bball then and now. It is easier now to come on the scene as a freshman and be dominant because so many great players leave as underclassman which leaves minutes and roles for new freshman as well as diminished overall competition. There are loads of things that make it hard to compare which is why its fun to discuss and people disagree so much. All I know is that Mello, Billy and DC are the type of guys who would be great players from the get go in any era.

Excellent point. Regarding Melo - and I may be all wet here - it is my recollection that once the BE season began JB kept him under the usual freshman muzzle. Carmelo was not a big factor at first. Then we lost a terrible game to Rutgers and it was like Melo went OOC thereafter. Maybe this was with JB's consent, but if not, JB seemed to cut him almost unlimited slack as Carmelo began to take full control and evolve into a superstar. A clear one and done.

Amazing that DC stuck around for 4 full years and Billy for three. Carmelo would certainly have gone higher than #3 if he had stayed for even one more year.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I Believe as of right now Carmelo is the only "Won and done" to be the focal point of a national championship team and then bolt to the NBA right after. Rose and Oden came close but Rose even had a first team all american on his team. Carmelo may not have put up up better stats than Beaseley or Durant but where so many great one and done's have failed ala Beaseley, Oden, Durant, Wall, Rose, etc Melo was the only one that brought home the chip. That is something to truly marvel at.

 

[orangefan13]

I think there is a chance we could be just as good if not better next year. That is if Fab comes back. He doesn't have the isolation game to go really high right now. Another year developing could be the difference from being picked 1-5th instead of 25th.

I see Dion, Kris and Scoop leaving. Our three isolation scorers. That is going to be alot of slack to make up for.

But, I don't think its a stretch to say we will find three isolation threats by midseason next year.
Fab, MCW, Triche, Fair, DC and maybe Southerland are good canidates.

Rak is going to be a solid contributer as a sophmore and give us a true PF.
Cooney is going to give us a true bomber.

And then theres the freshmen. DC is going to give us some more offense and weight in the paint. With Grant anything positive will help. He appears to be a skinnier SF and it takes time for some players to adjust to the speed/physicallity/weight of the college game. Others it doesn't. Will he be a Joseph or a CJ Fair as a fresh?

Man are we are going to be strong in the paint with Rak, Melo, and DC.
Not to mention having 5 possible AA's.
Fab, MCW,Rak,Grant, and DC.

 

[Col. Bleep]

This is always a good subject for debate.

At the end of the day...I think you have to look at each team as a unit and toss out how they finished the season and how many guys made the NBA.
Competition is different every year.

With that perspective, I'd say the 5 best teams are '86-87 (instead of '87-88 because of Greg Monroe at shooting guard))...'89-90...'02-03...'09-10 and the current team.

What were the weakest links each year?

'86-87 - arguably the bench
'89-90 -the backcourt
'02-03- center
'09-10 - arguably the talented but relatively inexperienced backcourt
'11-12- offensive production inside

A big plus for more recent teams is the experience and maturity amassed by the head coach.

So...which team would I least like to face as an opponent?

Right now I'd say '09-10...with the current team a close second. In large part it's because of the suffocating defense they both could play.
This year's experienced backcourt and unprecedented bench strength could make it #1.
I'd rank '02-o3 third (better depth) ...slightly ahead of '86-87 (best point guard and PF ever)...and not BECAUSE they went to the national title games.
But the fact they advanced that far is some reflection of how good they were.

'95-96 was a team of overachievers.
Fun, exciting team that almost won the National Championship.
But not close to being as good as the other teams.

 

[SU2NASA]

Winning a national title automatically makes you the best SU team ever. Anything less is a consolation prize.

 

[All4SU]

Agree that it's hard to say unless we separate regular season and tournament performance. I think 09-10 pre Onuaku injury beats the 03 championship team by double digits.

Agree that 9-10 squad was SU's best in my decades of memory. Not sure about beating the 03 squad by double digits. That 03 team was just so scrappy and tough. I think 9/10 would win, but in a close game.

 

[All4SU]

So...which team would I least like to face as an opponent?.

Obviously depends on what kind of team you have.

 

[suthrills]

If Melo stayed all 4 years, he would have averaged over 24-25 points/game and 11-12 rebounds/game for his career. What he did in his freshman year, has NEVER been done in SU history. One can only dream of another player that is Melo-esque down the road.

Owens and DC were great, but they stayed 3 and 4 years respectively. Imagine what Melo could've done after his freshman year. couchburn

I was just stating a fact that DC's and BO's stats don't pale in comparison to Carmelo as the poster suggested.
To project Carmelo's future stats is a fun game but the fact is he stayed one year and while his stats were impressive so were Billy's and DC's.
Keep in mind when BO was a freshman he joined a team that had the likes of Sherm, DC, and Stevie. I loved that Billy came in as a hyped freshman and willingly subjugated his game to the upperclassmen. As great as Melo was/is I don't think he has the same stats if he joins a loaded team like that one.
There's a lot of factors to take into account and all 3 of them were great Orangemen with gaudy stats.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

Another thing about Melo that I believe separates him from the rest is that he had "it." He had that killer instinct, that will to win. There's a reason why he's considered the most clutch shooter in the NBA, why he wants to take that last shot. He saved his two best games for the Final four where he dismantled Texas, and almost had a triple-double against Kansas. He played up to his competition. He in my opinion is better than his stats. I still believe that Wallace senior year was more impressive than Melo's, but you can't discount that Melo did this all as a freshman. Melo more than passed the eye test and his ability to take over a game when the team needs it most is something truly remarkable.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I was just stating a fact that DC's and BO's stats don't pale in comparison to Carmelo as the poster suggested.
To project Carmelo's future stats is a fun game but the fact is he stayed one year and while his stats were impressive so were Billy's and DC's.
Keep in mind when BO was a freshman he joined a team that had the likes of Sherm, DC, and Stevie. I loved that Billy came in as a hyped freshman and willingly subjugated his game to the upperclassmen. As great as Melo was/is I don't think he has the same stats if he joins a loaded team like that one.
There's a lot of factors to take into account and all 3 of them were great Orangemen with gaudy stats.

For the sake of this thread, you could only compare single seasons. Melo's freshman numbers are significantly better than both Owens' and Coleman's during the 88-89 season. Couple that with the fact that Carmelo lead the team to the championship and neither Owens nor Coleman were even the best player on the 88-89 team, which flamed out against Kendall Gill and Marcus Liberty.

I do, however, agree that Melo didnt have to share the rock as much as any of the starters on the 88-89 team and that does account in some way for the difference in stats.

A subquestion could be which great Orange squad lost the more gut wrenching game - 86-87 (Indiana), 88-89 (Illinois) or 2009-2010 (Butler)?

 

[Jaka]

03 team gets my vote, when it comes to evenly matched teams, a few plays can determine the game, and when its crunch time id take melo and gmac over anyone, there is no one on the 2010 or this years team who could stop melo when its crunch time, his mid range is simply on a different level than wes' or kj's, not to mention gmac nack for hitting late threes when it counts, cant really speak for the late 80's teams because thats before my time

melo and gmac probably could have won 4 straight titles if melo had stayed all 4 years, he is a match up nightmare and outside of kevin durant, there really hasnt been another college player that approaches his game

 

[CorduroyG]

For the sake of this thread, you could only compare single seasons. Melo's freshman numbers are significantly better than both Owens' and Coleman's during the 88-89 season. Couple that with the fact that Carmelo lead the team to the championship and neither Owens nor Coleman were even the best player on the 88-89 team, which flamed out against Kendall Gill and Marcus Liberty.

I do, however, agree that Melo didnt have to share the rock as much as any of the starters on the 88-89 team and that does account in some way for the difference in stats.

A subquestion could be which great Orange squad lost the more gut wrenching game - 86-87 (Indiana), 88-89 (Illinois) or 2009-2010 (Butler)?

YOu cant have a more gut wrenching loss than the indiana game, its not even close.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

A subquestion could be which great Orange squad lost the more gut wrenching game - 86-87 (Indiana), 88-89 (Illinois) or 2009-2010 (Butler)?

Indiana.........................................................Illinois...Butler.

 

[omgDaveSiock]

Ya I think on pure talent 89 we were loaded but a lot of teams were loaded in that era due to ppl generally staying at least 3 yrs. Loved Wes johnson, Rautins team. Also 96 was amazing to watch seeing JW carry a mediocre team on his back to a Nat'l game Def my favorite team albeit nowhere near the best. In the end though has to be 03 they won and we got a yr of Melo and were introduced to the legend Gmac...

 

[realorange]

Winning a national title automatically makes you the best SU team ever. Anything less is a consolation prize.

Only the best of that year's competition.

As has been said before, the level of competition was usually much greater when you didn't have guys jumping into the NBA before graduation. The number of powerhouse teams was much greater in the 70s and 80s than today.