It is AMAZING how different the offense is...

[RF2044]

...when we get some legitimate bench scoring. Several times in the last few games, we've gotten solid offensive contributions from both BJ and Patterson. Even if its just 6+ points or so, it is the shot in the arm that this team has lacked all season long until the last few games.

BJ can be a big contributor here if he sticks around. Glad the light bulb finally went off and he is hitting shots. This is what I envisioned he'd be able to contribute all season long. I'm not saying 14 points per game, but a guy who plays every game, brings versatility, can hit a three point shot or two, but also take it off the bounce, rebound, score inside a bit, etc.

Really hope this kid sticks around--because he could be a big factor next year.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I thought you were going to talk about how different it was when Xmas fouled out. Not sure Notre Dame knew how to defend us at that point. Really opened things up and our guys took advantage of it. Also surprised ND started jacking up threes so early when they could get to the basket pretty easily.

 

[Ghost]

Eh, sometimes you gotta let them play through mistakes. Good to see the kids stepping up and taking advantage though.

Even with G struggling most of the game - we pulled it out. Nice win!

 

[anomander]

You have to wonder if BJ, and Ron didn't get pulled after 1 minor miscue, would they have been able to do this all season long? Maybe not 19ppg, but a legit scoring threat off the bench.

It's good to see them finally get their chance, and follow through in a big way.

 

[RF2044]

You have to wonder if BJ, and Ron didn't get pulled after 1 minor miscue, would they have been able to do this all season long? Maybe not 19ppg, but a legit scoring threat off the bench.

It's good to see them finally get their chance, and follow through in a big way.

I don't agree that that's what has happened with either player. They haven't been undermined by being pulled--they just didn't produce. Frankly, BJ has gotten plenty of chances--he couldn't throw the ball in the ocean for 3/4 of the schedule.

Patterson has played all season long. His offense has been inconsistent, but he's gotten a ton of PT.

But damn, it is great that they are providing offensive contributions now. We are a different team for it.

 

[Jack Hall]

...when we get some legitimate bench scoring. Several times in the last few games, we've gotten solid offensive contributions from both BJ and Patterson. Even if its just 6+ points or so, it is the shot in the arm that this team has lacked all season long until the last few games.

BJ can be a big contributor here if he sticks around. Glad the light bulb finally went off and he is hitting shots. This is what I envisioned he'd be able to contribute all season long. I'm not saying 14 points per game, but a guy who plays every game, brings versatility, can hit a three point shot or two, but also take it off the bounce, rebound, score inside a bit, etc.

Really hope this kid sticks around--because he could be a big factor next year.

Its not just bench scoring, its having 3 guys that can hit a 3 out there together! Much better spacing for Rak. If G comes back we seriously could have our best shooting team since 2003- G, Cooney, BJ, and Malachi should all be pretty damn good

 

[RF2044]

Its not just bench scoring, its having 3 guys that can hit a 3 out there together! Much better spacing for Rak. If G comes back we seriously could have our best shooting team since 2003- G, Cooney, BJ, and Malachi should all be pretty damn good

There's a lot of validity to that. Having three shooters to space the floor is pretty important in contemporary college basketball.

Hope BJ sticks around to provide that complimentary weapon next year. Add Malachi [and hopefully an improved Joseph], and we could sport multiple shooters.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Its not just bench scoring, its having 3 guys that can hit a 3 out there together! Much better spacing for Rak. If G comes back we seriously could have our best shooting team since 2003- G, Cooney, BJ, and Malachi should all be pretty damn good

Funny thing is, those four could be surrounded by two of the worst 3 point shooters in school history if Patterson and Joseph don't improve all that much.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

There's a lot of validity to that. Having three shooters to space the floor is pretty important in contemporary college basketball.

Plus it was a different lineup as well. Without going back to check the box score, Roberson was on the bench most of the time so it was BJ and G playing the 3 and 4 (or 4 and 3) with Patterson and Cooney the guards. G really didn't play a strong court game so Patterson was running the show for a while. That lineup actually had some great spacing on the court.

 

[Jack Hall]

There's a lot of validity to that. Having three shooters to space the floor is pretty important in contemporary college basketball.

Hope BJ sticks around to provide that complimentary weapon next year. Add Malachi [and hopefully an improved Joseph], and we could sport multiple shooters.

And then possibly McC, Cole , TRob and Bryant inside....nice to think about the possibility...but i get ahead of myself, we just beat 2 ranked teams in a week. Keep it going Cuse!

 

[anomander]

I don't agree that that's what has happened with either player. They haven't been undermined by being pulled--they just didn't produce. Frankly, BJ has gotten plenty of chances--he couldn't throw the ball in the ocean for 3/4 of the schedule.

Patterson has played all season long. His offense has been inconsistent, but he's gotten a ton of PT.

But damn, it is great that they are providing offensive contributions now. We are a different team for it.

In ACC play BJ has had 4 DNP coaches decisions, 8 games under 7 mins, and 3 games where he got double digit mins. In those games he scored 12, 11, and 19 respectively. It's all about confidence. It's tough to throw the ball in the ocean when you're getting spotty playing time, and you know if you have 1 miss you're getting yanked. So sure he's had chances, but barely.

 

[Jack Hall]

In ACC play BJ has had 4 DNP coaches decisions, 8 games under 7 mins, and 3 games where he got double digit mins. In those games he scored 12, 11, and 19 respectively. It's all about confidence. It's tough to throw the ball in the ocean when you're getting spotty playing time, and you know if you have 1 miss you're getting yanked. So sure he's had chances, but barely.

Hes got confidence now so hopefully w him its like riding a bike...

 

[RF2044]

In ACC play BJ has had 4 DNP coaches decisions, 8 games under 7 mins, and 3 games where he got double digit mins. In those games he scored 12, 11, and 19 respectively. It's all about confidence. It's tough to throw the ball in the ocean when you're getting spotty playing time, and you know if you have 1 miss you're getting yanked. So sure he's had chances, but barely.

I don't disagree that he hasn't played much, but let's be honest--he started games. Ahead of Gbinije. He had PLENTY of chances, and couldn't produce in any way, shape, or form.

This wasn't a situation where a guy played, but got pulled and that affected him. He was congenitally incapable of hitting shots for a significant portion of the schedule. And given that he was a completely unproven commodity with a very limited track record of making any substantive contributions, he wasn't rewarded with PT.

Then he had a good game against the worst team in the league. And then JB game him a little more leash. And then he continued to contribute [sans Duke game]. And now he's strung together several consecutive good games in a row.

I'm not suggesting that BJ Johnson is a sure thing, or that he'll even return next year. But I like what I'm seeing recently.

And I don't buy into the argument that JB held him back somehow by pulling him. There was an absolute lid on the rim for this kid for most of the season. What did they say during tonight's telecast--he's seeing a big rim now? Damn straight--and that's bought him a lot of PT / latitude from JB.

 

[SoBristol]

BJ -- learned to put some more arc on his shot.
RP -- learned to take his game toward the basket, and dish, or make cuts & finish.
Both have had to learn how to play defense and figure some things out. Good to see that happening.

 

[Jack Hall]

In ACC play BJ has had 4 DNP coaches decisions, 8 games under 7 mins, and 3 games where he got double digit mins. In those games he scored 12, 11, and 19 respectively. It's all about confidence. It's tough to throw the ball in the ocean when you're getting spotty playing time, and you know if you have 1 miss you're getting yanked. So sure he's had chances, but barely.

My only complaint is after he scored his 14th pt until he got that dunk in last min , he was very passive in that stretch, but to be expected, it was his first close game down the stretch that he played in.

 

[Jack Hall]

BJ -- learned to put some more arc on his shot.
RP -- learned to take his game toward the basket, and dish, or make cuts & finish.
Both have had to learn how to play defense and figure some things out. Good to see that happening.

Many of his shots look good the moment they leave his hand, hope he can keep that form up

 

[RF2044]

Many of his shots look good the moment they leave his hand, hope he can keep that form up

Plus, I love southpaw shooters!

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Many of his shots look good the moment they leave his hand, hope he can keep that form up

He has an unbelievably soft touch. Like Charmin.

 

[Ghost]

And I don't buy into the argument that JB held him back somehow by pulling him. There was an absolute lid on the rim for this kid for most of the season. What did they say during tonight's telecast--he's seeing a big rim now? Damn straight--and that's bought him a lot of PT / latitude from JB.

Just for the sake of argument - if Cooney is healthy/Roberson doesn't have his face smashed, and BJ throws up that god-awful three coming off Rak's screen, that was 18 feet left of the rim on Saturday against Pitt - do you think he sees any of those minutes the rest of that game? I don't. I think he never sees the court again on Saturday.

Players press when every minute could be their last. JB has conceded as much in one of SWC's radio shows.

I do think JB hampers the players development in certain cases with the short leash. It's fun to argue - but you never know.

 

[RF2044]

Just for the sake of argument - if Cooney is healthy/Roberson doesn't have his face smashed, and BJ throws up that god-awful three coming off Rak's screen, that was 18 feet left of the rim on Saturday against Pitt - do you think he sees any of those minutes the rest of that game? I don't. I think he never sees the court again on Saturday.

I do think JB hampers the players development in certain cases with the short leash. It's fun to argue - but you never know.

JB gives more rope when he trusts players. IMO, that primarily stems from the defensive end--but it also applies offensively. He'll tolerate a bad shot or two, and give players more rope when they are consistent. I'm not talking about game to game variation--players don't have it every game; some games they do, some they don't--and PT will get adjusted accordingly.

But when players don't contribute, they aren't accorded the benefit of the doubt to play through mistakes. Its hard to argue against hypotheticals. Did BJ benefit via PT when Roberson got injured? Sure. But then he produced. And because he produced, he got more PT. And because of that, more latitude to play through mistakes.

For a significant--and we aren't talking a slump, or a few games worth of dip in conference play--but for the majority of the season, BJ literally couldn't buy a basket. Even times when he got offensive rebounds and had point blank stick back opportunities, they didn't drop, he'd get blocked, or he'd turn the ball over. BJ didn't get run because BJ couldn't produce. Period. He was given extensive opportunities earlier in the season--especially after he became a starter, only to squander that opportunity--but when he couldn't produce, he got benched. The coach isn't to blame for that lack of production, or that there wasn't even a MODICUM of production for the majority of the season. The poor execution is on BJ.

Glad to see he's worked his way out of the doghouse.

 

[Ghost]

JB gives more rope when he trusts players. IMO, that primarily stems from the defensive end--but it also applies offensively. He'll tolerate a bad shot or two, and give players more rope when they are consistent. I'm not talking about game to game variation--players don't have it every game; some games they do, some they don't--and PT will get adjusted accordingly.

But when players don't contribute, they aren't accorded the benefit of the doubt to play through mistakes. Its hard to argue against hypotheticals. Did BJ benefit via PT when Roberson got injured? Sure. But then he produced. And because he produced, he got more PT. And because of that, more latitude to play through mistakes.

For a significant--and we aren't talking a slump, or a few games worth of dip in conference play--but for the majority of the season, BJ literally couldn't buy a basket. Even times when he got offensive rebounds and had point blank stick back opportunities, they didn't drop, he'd get blocked, or he'd turn the ball over. BJ didn't get run because BJ couldn't produce. Period. He was given extensive opportunities earlier in the season--especially after he became a starter, only to squander that opportunity--but when he couldn't produce, he got benched. The coach isn't to blame for that lack of production, or that there wasn't even a MODICUM of production for the majority of the season. The poor execution is on BJ.

Glad to see he's worked his way out of the doghouse.

That's more or less my point - barring a freak injury, and a bad back, BJ takes that deep three and he probably doesn't come back in. Because JB doesn't trust him - but sometimes you gotta roll the dice. I mean his faith in TC is unwavering...extend a little courtesy to BJ and Patterson!

I don't disagree with much of what you said, but we saw early in the year that even against P5 teams that kid could hold his own on the boards and contribute in ways other than scoring. He didn't become a total dolt overnight - inexperienced players are going to have much more volatility game to game. Joseph is an example of that, he's been awful on some nights, and he's been fine other nights. He always gets to play through it though.

When you take a kid like BJ and yank him so quickly I do strongly believe that you cause him to press - and you in effect cause your own problems.

Which games did BJ start? Were they the first three games (after G was suspended or whatever - I honestly don't recall for sure)?

9 PPG (with a 0 in game three btw), 7 REB, 30%'ish on threes, 2 turnovers, 5-5 on free throws. Did he really blow it that badly? He sucked against Cal (still pulled down 7 boards, but that was MSG...nerves were to be expected), but that was it for him. As Millhouse points out, in games where he gets off shots w/out the quick hook his percentages skyrocket.

I just don't know that JB's philosophy is beyond critique (not implying you said it wasn't). Allowing a three here or there in exchange for extended minutes is something you may have to live with to reap that production earlier in the year. Again, it's all speculation, I have no idea if it works out that way, but I do tend to think it hampers progress in certain instances. I think it hurt Rak quite a bit in his development, and I can see where a valid argument can be made that it hurts BJ. Other players can play awful defense and still play PG all year.....BJ can't steal some minutes here or there? I just don't buy it for the most part.

As always, it's fair to point out that none of us see practice - and that obviously impacts what we see with how minutes are allotted...

 

[RF2044]

That's more or less my point - barring a freak injury, and a bad back, BJ takes that deep three and he probably doesn't come back in. Because JB doesn't trust him - but sometimes you gotta roll the dice. I mean his faith in TC is unwavering...extend a little courtesy to BJ and Patterson!

I don't disagree with much of what you said, but we saw early in the year that even against P5 teams that kid could hold his own on the boards and contribute in ways other than scoring. He didn't become a total dolt overnight - inexperienced players are going to have much more volatility game to game. Joseph is an example of that, he's been awful on some nights, and he's been fine other nights. He always gets to play through it though.

When you take a kid like BJ and yank him so quickly I do strongly believe that you cause him to press - and you in effect cause your own problems.

Which games did BJ start? Were they the first three games?

9 PPG (with a 0 in game three btw), 7 REB, 30%'ish on threes, 2 turnovers, 5-5 on free throws. Did he really blow it that badly? He sucked against Cal (still pulled down 7 boards, but that was MSG...nerves were to be expected), but that was it for him. As Millhouse points out, in games where he gets off shots w/out the quick hook his percentages skyrocket.

I just don't know that JB's philosophy is beyond critique (not implying you said it wasn't). Allowing a three here or there in exchange for extended minutes is something you may have to live with to reap that production earlier in the year. Again, it's all speculation, I have no idea if it works out that way, but I do tend to think it hampers progress in certain instances. I think it hurt Rak quite a bit in his development, and I can see where a valid argument can be made that it hurts BJ. Other players can play awful defense and still play PG all year...BJ can't steal some minutes here or there? I just don't buy it for the most part.

As always, it's fair to point out that none of us see practice - and that obviously impacts what we see with how minutes are allotted...

What did he score the first game? And what did he score the next two?

That accounts for the PPG.

And therein lies the rub--he had one big outing in game one, then couldn't put the ball in the ocean. Literally couldn't hit a shot. Yes, he showed above average rebounding aptitude.

But on a team that was desperate for scoring all year long, which is what this team was, BJ couldn't earn minutes precisely because he couldn't produce. Glad to see he's reversed that trend.

BTW, there hasn't been a bigger BJ Johnson proponent on the board than me these last two years. Not one poster has been more optimisitic about this kid's potential than I have been [at least no poster who isn't related to BJ]. LOVE what he's done recently, and I believe he can build upon this heading into next year.

 

[Ghost]

What did he score the first game? And what did he score the next two?

That accounts for the PPG.

And therein lies the rub--he had one big outing in game one, then couldn't put the ball in the ocean. Literally couldn't hit a shot. Yes, he showed above average rebounding aptitude.

But on a team that was desperate for scoring all year long, which is what this team was, BJ couldn't earn minutes precisely because he couldn't produce. Glad to see he's reversed that trend.

BTW, there hasn't been a bigger BJ Johnson proponent on the board than me these last two years. Not one poster has been more optimisitic about this kid's potential than I have been [at least no poster who isn't related to BJ]. LOVE what he's done recently, and I believe he can build upon this heading into next year.

19 and then 8. Hitting about 40% of his threes (2 of 6 in game one, 2 of 5 in game 2 --- on a team that would kill for a 40% from three performance most nights). It's not that titanic of a drop-off. I can find more extreme example from some of our stars.

He produced (somewhat...a little?) when he had significant playing time, no? The last game he played more than 10 minutes prior to BC he hit 50% from the field, 50% from three. He was getting hot!

I just don't see it - I've always been a proponent of force-feeding kids minutes though if they seem talented. Especially on this team. Some years, not so much. But on this team? Heck yes.

I know - you were talking highly of BJ last year too. I just think BJ/Patterson should have seen more minutes at times. More because of the rest of the roster than any great performance, but I also never thought they were complete duds as players which seemed to be the consensus for a bit.

And yes, I do remember some truly epic fails along the way in those limited minutes...I won't mention any specifics though since we won tonight, and it feels good to get the W! LGO!