JB vs. Top Coaches

[SWC75]

This is an update, (as of 2013), of a project I did a few years ago: to chart Jim Boeheim’s record vs. the top coaches of all time. I looked in the NCAA Guide where they have a list of all the coaches with winning percentages above .700, (with a minimum of 10 years as a head coach in D-1: 62 of them) or with more than 500 wins, ( and half of their season in D-1: 76 of them). I went through the historical scores in the Media Guide from the 1976-77 season onward to find games where Jim Boeheim coached against those coaches. Here they are in alphabetical order. “L” indicates a loss.

Rick BARNES (Providence) 1/28/89 100-96, 2/18/89 87-80, 3/10/89 79-76, 1/20/90 86-87L, 2/25/90 93-89, 1/26/91 82-92L, 2/12/91 101-83, 1/4/92 79-66, 1/29/92 73-87L, 1/16/93 69-57, 2/27/93 68-67, 1/25/94 82-96L, 2/15/94 79-74, (Texas) 4/5/03 95-84 Total: 10-4

Gene BARTOW (UAB) 11/28/87 79-63 Total: 1-0

John BEILEIN (Richmond) 12/3/99 74-60, 3/20/02 60-46, (West Virginia) 2/8/03 94-80, 2/24/03 89-51, 3/2/04 65-52, 1/22/05 72-64, 3/12/05 68-59, 2/20/06 60-58 (Michigan) 11/26/11 53-50, 4/6/13 56-61L Total: 9-1

Dave BLISS (New Mexico) 3/15/98 56-46 Total: 1-0

Jim CALHOUN (Northeastern) 2/5/77 110-70, (Connecticut) 1/3/87 88-71, 2/7/87 59-53, 1/16/88 50-51L, 2/20/88 73-71, 1/16/89 62-68, 2/28/89 88-72, 1/15/90 59-70L, 2/10/90 90-86, 3/11/90 75-78L, 1/16/91 81-79, 1/28/91 68-66, 2/3/92 84-83, 3/4/92 78-85L, 2/2/93 60-57, 2/15/93 76-80L, 1/10/94 67-75L, 2/1/94 108-95, 1/23/95 75-86L, 2/12/95 70-77L, 1/21/96 70-79L, 3/8/96 76-85L, 1/26/97 65-63, 2/17/97 71-66, 1/24/98 54-63L, 3/8/98 64-69L, 2/1/99 59-42, 2/28/99 58-70L, 3/5/99 50-71L, 1/24/00 88-74, 3/4/00 54-69L, 2/19/01 65-60, 3/7/01 86-75, 2/10/03 61-75L, 3/14/03 67-80L, 2/2/04 56-84L, 3/7/04 67-56, 2/7/05 66-74L, 3/5/05 70-88L, 3/11/05 67-63, 1/14/06 80-88L, 2/8/06 50-73L, 3/9/06 86-84, 2/5/07 60-67L 2/17/07 73-63, 3/7/07 78-65, 2/6/08 61-63L, 2/11/09 49-63L, 3/12/09 127-117, 2/10/10 72-67, 2/2/11 66-58, 3/11/11 71-76L 2/11/12 85-67, 2/25/12 71-69, 3/8/12 58-55 Total: 28-28

John CALIPARI (Massachusetts) 3/22/92 71-77L, 12/30/95 47-65L (Memphis) 11/14/02 63-70L, 11/19/04 77-62, 12/20/08 72-65 Total: 2-3

Louis CARNESECCA (St. John’s) 2/19/77 79-55, 2/18/78 77-65, 2/17/79 79-72, 2/16/80 72-71, 1/24/81 79-71, 2/28/81 73-82L, 3/5/81 71-66, 1/20/82 62-73L, 2/27/82 76-80L, 1/22/83 57-68L, 2/23/83 69-85L, 1/28/84 78-74, 2/27/84 82-81, 1/23/85 80-82L, 2/23/85 83-88L, 2/1/86 68-64, 2/26/86 79-86L, 3/8/86 69-70L, 1/24/87 64-63, 2/25/87 88-80, 2/6/88 79-62, 2/17/88 82-68, 1/14/89 63-65L, 2/11/89 92-69, 1/10/90 81-72, 1/29/89 70-65, 1/2/91 92-86, 2/20/91 72-77L, 1/25/92 58-56, 2/19/92 62-63L Total: 18-12

Pete CARRIL (Princeton) 12/4/82 67-54, 3/20/92 51-43, 12/17/94 67-65 Total: 3-0

Gale CATLETT (West Virginia) 1/29/79 90-74, 1/7/80 72-69, 1/16/96 78-90l, 12/4/97 79-101L, 12/9/98 59-73L, 1/2/99 83-67, 1/11/00 76-63, 1/13/01 86-80, 2/17/01 76-87L , 1/12/02 75-69, 2/4/02 76-64 Total: 7-4

John CHANEY (Temple) 12/2/89 73-56, 3/28/02 54-65L Total: 1-1

Bobby CREMINS (Georgia Tech) 3/17/85 53-70L, 12/16/01 80-96L, 12/21/01 92-65 Total: 1-2

Denny CRUM (Louisville) 12/4/76 76-75, 1/18/86 63-83L, 2/14/87 99-72, 1/10/98 69-65, 2/10/00 69-82L Total: 3-2

Tom DAVIS (Boston College) 2/25/78 97-80, 2/23/80 85-77, 1/21/81 63-66L, 2/25/81 90-86, 1/23/82 62-80L 2/22/82 77-88L, 3/4/82 92-94L Total: 3-4

Jamie DIXON (Pittsburgh) 1/18/03 60-73L, 2/1/03 67-65, 1/24/04 45-66L, 2/29/04 49-46, 1/29/05 69-76L, 2/14/05 64-68L, 1/23/06 67-80L, 3/11/06 65-61, 1/4/07 66-74L, 3/1/08 77-82L, 1/19/09 60-78L, 1/2/10 72-82L, 1/17/11 66-74L, 1/16/12 71-63, 2/2/13 55-65L, 3/14/13 62-59 Total: 5-11
(He’s actually not on either of the above lists in the 2012-2013 Media Guide because he had only coached for 9 season. 2012-2013 was his 10th season and he completed it with a winning percentage of .753 so I decided to include him. He’s certainly a “top coach”)

Billy DONOVAN (Florida) 11/18/06 70-75L, 11/21/08 89-83 12/2/12 72-68 Total: 2-1

Left DRIESELL (Maryland) 85-96L, 73-83L Total: 0-2

Cliff ELLIS (Auburn) 3/28/03 79-78 Total: 1-0

Mark FEW (Gonzaga) 3/21/10 87-65 Total: 1-0

Joe B. HALL (Kentucky) 12/23/78 87-94L Total: 0-1

Lou HENSON (Illinois) 12/22/78 61-64L 3/26/89 86-89L 12/28/95 75-64 Total: 1-2

Bob HUGGINS (West Virginia) 2/4/09 74-61, 3/13/09 74-69, 1/16/10 72-71, 2/14/11 63-52, 1/28/12 63-61, Total: 5-0

Larry HUNTER (Ohio) 12/4/98 55-61L Total: 0-1

Tom IZZO (Michigan State) 3/23/00 58-75L, 11/21/01 69-58, 2/23/03 76-75, 1/3/04 96-83, 12/7/10 72-58 Total: 4-1

Danny KASPER (SF Austin) 3/20/09 59-44 Total: 1-0

Gene KEADY (Purdue) 3/23/81 70-63, 12/19/81 78-64 Total: 2-0

Bob KNIGHT (Indiana) 3/30/87 73-74L, 11/23/88 102-78, 11/25/90 77-74, 11/25/98 76-63 (Texas Tech ) 11/17/05 81-46 Total: 4-1

John KRESSE (College of Charleston) 12/16/95 72-61 Total 1-0

Mike KRZYZEWSKI (Duke) 12/6/89 78-76 3/20/98 67-80L Total: 1-1

Guy LEWIS (Houston) 92-87 Total: 1-0

Rick MAJERUS (Marquette) 12/17/83 68-79L, 2/3/85 71-53 Total: 1-1

Rollie MASSIMINO (Villanova) 12/29/79 92-84, 3/1/80 97-83, 1/10/81 65-69L, 2/17/81 78-88L. 3/7/81 83-80, 1/9/82 83-84L, 2/17/82 69-81L, 1/29/83 75-83L, 3/1/83 79-70, 1/3/84 79-70, 2/5/84 75-77L, 3/9/84 66-65, 1/2/85 70-82L, 2/1/85 92-79, 1/6/86 80-57, 2/12/86 77-72, 1/27/87 70-58, 2/16/87 96-82, 3/6/87 72-66, 1/11/88 78-80L, 3/1/88 71-69, 3/13/88 85-68, 1/9/89 73-75L, 2/1/89 90-57, 1/6/90, 74-93L, 2/12/90 56-60L, 3/10/90 73-61, 1/6/91 66-76L, 2/26/91 77-63, 3/8/91 68-70L, 1/21/92 60-70L, 5/8/92 56-76L, 3/13/92 55-52 Total: 18-15

Thad MATTA (Ohio State) 11/21/07 65-79L, 3/24/12 70-77L Total: 0-2

Frank MCGUIRE (South Carolina) 2/7/79 71-64 Total: 1-0

Ray MEARS (Tennessee) 3/13/77 93-88 Total: 1-0

Ray MEYER (DePaul) 2/1/81 69-91L, 1/30/82 87-92L Total: 0-2

Eldon MILLER (Ohio State) 1/4/82 57-67L, 12/14/82 91-85, 3/20/83 74-79L Total: 1-2

Mike MONTGOMERY (California) 11/19/09 95-73, 3/23/13 66-60 Total 2-0

Lute OLSON (Iowa) 3/14/80 77-88L (Arizona) 11/30/87 69-80L 12/22/94 94-84, 12/23/95 79-70 Total: 2-2

Tom PENDERS (Fordham) 12/12/81 78-79L, 11/27/82 66-44, (Rhode Island) 3/19/88 94-97L Total: 1-2

Rick PITINO (Providence) 1/22/86 95-73, 2/15/86 76-75, 1/5/87 89-85, 2/19/87 90-81,3/28/87 77-63, (Kentucky) 2/12/94 93-85, 2/5/95 71-77L 4/1/96 67-76L, (Louisville) 2/18/06 79-66, 1/27/07 71-76L, 2/18/08 50-61L, 1/25/09 57-67L, 3/14/09 66-76L, 2/14/10 60-66L, 3/6/10 68-78L, 2/12 69-73L, 2/13/12 52-51, 3/3/12 58-49, 1/19/13 70-68, 3/2/13 53-58L, 3/16/03 61-78L Total: 10-11

Nolan RICHARDSON (Tulsa) 3/25/81 84-86L (Arkansas) 3/18/95 94-96LTotal: 0-2

Lee ROSE (Chartlotte) 3/17/77 59-81L, (Purdue) 66-61 Total: 1-1

Bo RYAN (Wisconsin) 3/22/12 64-63 Total: 1-0

Kelvin SAMPSON (Oklahoma) 3/30/03 63-47 Total: 1-0

Bill SELF (Kansas) 11/22/09 89-81 Total: 1-0

Norm SLOAN (Florida) 3/19/87 87-81 Total: 1-0

Dean SMITH (North Carolina) 1/8/83 64-87L, 12/10/83 64-87L, 3/21/87 79-75, 11/21/88 93-96L Total: 1-3

Norm STEWART (Missouri) 11/25/88 86-84, 3/24/89 83-80, 3/29/94 88-98L, 11/25/00 84-62, 1/13/03 76-69, 1/12/04 82-68 Total: 5-1

Eddie SUTTON (Kentucky) 2/28/88, 58-62L 2/26/89 88-72, (Oklahoma State) 3/11/99 61-69L, 3/23/03 68-56 Total: 2-2

John THOMPSON (Georgetown) 3/3/79 58-66L, 2/12/80 50-52L, 2/29/80 81-87L, 1/17/81 57-62L, 2/9/81, 66-64, 3/6/81 67-53, 1/17/82 75-70, 2/8/82 79-96L, 1/10/83 92-97L, 3/7/83 75-80L, 3/10/83 79-72, 1/30/84 67-80L, 3/3/84 71-88L, 3/10/84 71-82L, 1/28/85 65-63, 3/3/85 63-90L, 3/8/85 65-74L, 1/15/86 70-73L, 2/23/86 64-63, 3/7/86 75-73, 1/31/87 81-83L, 2/22/87 71-72L, 3/8/87 59-69L, 1/24/88 68-69L, 2/13/88 69-71L, 2/13/89 54-61L, 3/5/89 82-76, 3/12/89 79-88L, 1/27/90 95-76, 3/4/90 89-87, 1/21/91 58-56, 3/3/91 62-58, 1/15/92, 74-62, 2/23/92 68-72L, 3/15/92 56-54, 1/5/93 60-64L, 2/8/93 76-61, 2/7/94 56-60L, 3/6/94 81-75, 1/30/95 76-75, 2/26/95 78-81L, 1/24/96 64-83L, 2/10/96 85-64, 2/8/97 77-74, 1/26/98 84-66, 3/1/98 77-72, 1/16/99 81-79 Total: 22-25

Billy TUBBS (Oklahoma) 1/7/84 91-98L, (TCU) 12/25/97 82-78 Total: 1-1

Davey WHITNEY (Alcorn State) 12/3/82 110-77 Total: 1-0

Gary WILLIAMS (American U.) 1/8/79 103-73, (Boston College) 1/17/83 102-85, 2/19/83 108-88, 3/11/83 74-80L, 1/21/84 75-73, 2/22/84, 88-90L, 1/8/85 64-58, 2/5/85 66-67L, 3/7/85 70-69, 1/2/86 68-52, 1/28/56 80-55, 3/14/86 102-79, (Maryland), 3/20/04 72-70, 3/20/08 88-72 Total: 11-3

Roy WILLIAMS (Kansas) 3/24/96 60-57, 3/18/01 58-87L, 4/7/03 81-78 (North Carolina) 11/20/09 87-71 Total: 3-1

Tom YOUNG (Rutgers) 2/26/77 82-72, 1/28/78 73-77L, 1/22/79 71-65, 1/24/80 69-66 Total: 3-1


Jim Boeheim’s total record against these 55 coaches is 207-156, a winning percentage of .575. He’s got a winning record against 31 of them and a losing record against 16 of them. That proves that he’s not only among the greatest coaches but is better than most of them. Against the leading proponents of man-to-man defense, Bobby Knight, Mike Krzyzewski, Tom Izzo and Bob Huggins, JB is 14-3.

 

[Trueblue25]

Using this thread in pathetic ESPN convo board arguments for years to come.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

It's so weird that JB does so well against top coaches is great in every round of the tournament except for the sweet 16. Like that one stat right there has hurt Boeheim so bad its unreal.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Pearl wasn't at Tennessee when we played them...That was Buzz Peterson.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It's so weird that JB does so well against top coaches is great in every round of the tournament except for the sweet 16. Like that one stat right there has hurt Boeheim so bad its unreal.

The last two seasons have helped in that regard.

In a single elim tourney though, odds are at some point you lose.:noidea:

 

[SoBeCuse]

Pearl wasn't at Tennessee when we played them...That was Buzz Peterson.

What about Wade Houston? Allen's father. We played them right?

 

[SWC75]

Pearl wasn't at Tennessee when we played them...That was Buzz Peterson.

You are correct. I misread my own notes. Pearl's tenure at Tennessee began in "06", (not "00"). I have corrected it. Thanks.

 

[SWC75]

What about Wade Houston? Allen's father. We played them right?

To make the list, you have to have won 500 games or had a winning percentage of .700 or better, (for at least 10 years). Wade Houston's record was 65 wins and 90 losses, so he hardly qualified.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

That list makes it look pretty good for JB.
But, again, the argument still rests on just how many coaches can be considered "great." There are a lot of people on that list who aren't/weren't "great coaches."

On the other hand, it is an empirical fact that your Jim Brown signature quote is, indeed, "great."

 

[SoBeCuse]

Right. Didn't expect Houston to make the list. I thought he was there and not Peterson. My bad.

 

[OHIORANGES]

To make the list, you have to have won 500 games or had a winning percentage of .700 or better, (for at least 10 years). Wade Houston's record was 65 wins and 90 losses, so he hardly qualified.

How about versus Al McGuire? His record was 297-78 (79%)?

 

[SWC75]

How about versus Al McGuire? His record was 297-78 (79%)?

He retired in JB's first year when he won the national championship. We didn't play Marquette that year.

 

[SWC75]

That list makes it look pretty good for JB.
But, again, the argument still rests on just how many coaches can be considered "great." There are a lot of people on that list who aren't/weren't "great coaches."

On the other hand, it is an empirical fact that your Jim Brown signature quote is, indeed, "great."

In an effort to be objective I used the lists of coaches with 500 wins or a .700 winning percentage, (over at least 10 years), which is the criteria the NCAA used for it's lists.

What criteria would you have used? Which coaches would you delete from the list and which ones would you add?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

In an effort to be objective I used the lists of coaches with 500 wins or a .700 winning percentage, (over at least 10 years), which is the criteria the NCAA used for it's lists.

What criteria would you have used? Which coaches would you delete from the list and which ones would you add?

I'm not arguing your list. If the premise is a list of "top coaches," your criteria makes sense. The debate, though, at least to me, stems from semantics and lexicon. "Great" to me is different than "top," and you've used both words in your original post. As i said, though, no arguments with the list and the research. I think it's significant, and i wouldn't have imagined JB would have come out so favorably. My issue with throwing around the word "great" means there has to be some sort of limit, and/or a strict definition, and realistically, there can't be any such thing. Everyone will determine "greatness" for themselves, and so there will always be an argument.

To put it in other, practical terms, most would say we had a "great season." We were ranked in the top 5 at one point, and went to the Final Four. Yet, we only finished fifth in our own conference. There's a conflict there, and who ever is doing the assessing will weigh things differently. re: Top Coaches, i think i just read a comment on this forum less than a week ago about Rick Barnes, and how awful he is, and how it's bizarre that he's still employed...

The other, maybe more solid issue, is that being a "great coach" is like being a "great race car driver." If you don't have the equipment beneath you, you're not going to reach the podium. So, while we laud Pete Carril, for example, and while it's been shown that Princeton could beat a heavyweight, I discount SU's 3-0 record against the Tigers. It means something, of course, but 3 wins against UConn, NC, Duke, Kentucky should mean more.

So, all in all, it's an illustration. It's also a set of statistics of sorts, but we have to read into the bare numbers to get a truer picture.

Again, though — i'm glad you posted this, as it still gives me a greater appreciation for JB.

 

[moqui]

That proves that he’s not only among the greatest coaches but is better than most of them.

I think that we'd have to see what the other coaches' winning percentages are in order to place JB in context and 'prove' anything (and I am not asking you to do that)

Against the leading proponents of man-to-man defense, Bobby Knight, Mike Krzyzewski, Tom Izzo and Bob Huggins, JB is 14-3.

are they really the "leading proponents?" take Huggins out and replace him with Jamie Dixon and JB's record is a more pedestrian 14-14

 

[capeorange]

Thanks for the data! Good post and some useful info that once again shows that JB is truly one of the great coaches.

 

[SWC75]

I'm not arguing your list. If the premise is a list of "top coaches," your criteria makes sense. The debate, though, at least to me, stems from semantics and lexicon. "Great" to me is different than "top," and you've used both words in your original post. As i said, though, no arguments with the list and the research. I think it's significant, and i wouldn't have imagined JB would have come out so favorably. My issue with throwing around the word "great" means there has to be some sort of limit, and/or a strict definition, and realistically, there can't be any such thing. Everyone will determine "greatness" for themselves, and so there will always be an argument.

To put it in other, practical terms, most would say we had a "great season." We were ranked in the top 5 at one point, and went to the Final Four. Yet, we only finished fifth in our own conference. There's a conflict there, and who ever is doing the assessing will weigh things differently. re: Top Coaches, i think i just read a comment on this forum less than a week ago about Rick Barnes, and how awful he is, and how it's bizarre that he's still employed...

The other, maybe more solid issue, is that being a "great coach" is like being a "great race car driver." If you don't have the equipment beneath you, you're not going to reach the podium. So, while we laud Pete Carril, for example, and while it's been shown that Princeton could beat a heavyweight, I discount SU's 3-0 record against the Tigers. It means something, of course, but 3 wins against UConn, NC, Duke, Kentucky should mean more.

So, all in all, it's an illustration. It's also a set of statistics of sorts, but we have to read into the bare numbers to get a truer picture.

Again, though — i'm glad you posted this, as it still gives me a greater appreciation for JB.

So who are the "great" coaches?

 

[SWC75]

I think that we'd have to see what the other coaches' winning percentages are in order to place JB in context and 'prove' anything (and I am not asking you to do that)

are they really the "leading proponents?" take Huggins out and replace him with Jamie Dixon and JB's record is a more pedestrian 14-14

No we wouldn't have to look at other coaches to see if if JB is great coach. a .575. winning percentage against the top coaches speaks for itself. There are other great coaches, maybe some better but it wouldn't change the assessment of JB.


I can see putting Dixon in the group but why would you take Huggins out? He's written a book on the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Man-Defense-Science-Coaching/dp/1585181722

I noted Knight, Krzyzewski, Izzo and Huggins not because they are the only coaches who play man for man but because they are the names that usually come up when that defense is discussed. Maybe Dixon's should as well. But even that leaves JB at 19-14 against that group.

 

[NKR1978]

So who are the "great" coaches?

Some will twist the numbers that will ensure that JB ends up on the wrong side of greatness.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[DeGrozz]

SWC -- it's not only that your posts are extremely well thought out, but also you have the best sig on the board:

'Jim Brown, born ineligible to play for the Redskins, integrated their end zone three times yesterday.' -Shirley Povich
Kudos to you.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Some will twist the numbers that will ensure that JB ends up on the wrong side of greatness.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

Not sure about that. It seems that the internet has been down in Florida lately. It's unfortunate that the boo birds haven't had too much to talk about the last couple years.

 

[SWC75]

SWC -- it's not only that your posts are extremely well thought out, but also you have the best sig on the board:

'Jim Brown, born ineligible to play for the Redskins, integrated their end zone three times yesterday.' -Shirley Povich
Kudos to you.

Since we can't do pictures any more, I'm going to be putting up a different quote each month about various sports. That one was actually used as a signature before by another poster. But it was good enough to warrant another go around.

 

[007]

SWC75, your posts are epic and detailed. Thank you.

Also need to give kudos to the administrator who gave you your nickname - which I just now fully paid attention to. Tomcat?

 

[sufandu]

The timing of some of his losses is frustrating. The one loss to Knight was a NC game, the one loss to Izzo in the tournament (sweet 16?), and the one loss to Beilein a final four game. I was surprised to see a losing record to Rollie Massimino and a winning record over Lou Carnesecca. I would've thought that would be reversed. He's absolutely owned the Williams brothers.

 

[cuseinseattle]

No we wouldn't have to look at other coaches to see if if JB is great coach. a .575. winning percentage against the top coaches speaks for itself. There are other great coaches, maybe some better but it wouldn't change the assessment of JB.


I can see putting Dixon in the group but why would you take Huggins out? He's written a book on the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Man-Defense-Science-Coaching/dp/1585181722

I noted Knight, Krzyzewski, Izzo and Huggins not because they are the only coaches who play man for man but because they are the names that usually come up when that defense is discussed. Maybe Dixon's should as well. But even that leaves JB at 19-14 against that group.

Let's take Huggins out because Boeheim has a good record against him. Let's put Dixon in because Boeheim has a worse record against Dixon. What nonsense. The list speaks for itself and proves Boeheim is al elite coach in my opinion.