Joe Torre says Roger Clemens belongs in Hall of Fame

[Orangeyes]

Oh Lord(n)

http://blog.syracuse.com/sports/2012/07/former_yankees_manager_joe_tor.html

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Either let steroid users in or kick anphetimine users out. PEDs are PEDs.

Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk 2

 

[Orangeyes]

Either let steroid users in or kick anphetimine users out. PEDs are PEDs.

Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk 2

How far back would that take us?

 

[br801]

Either let steroid users in or kick anphetimine users out. PEDs are PEDs.

Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk 2

Amphetamines did not artificially alter anyone physically and provide them with increased strength.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Let them all in. It's ridiculous to punish players for doing something that for all practical purposes was not against the rules at the time. Baseball (the owners and the players association) chose to ignore what was going on. I don't blame the players for doing whatever they could to compete. It is clear now that it wasn't just the hitters that were juicing.

Things are different now with a true drug policy. Players today should be held fully responsible, but I don't blame those that used prior to the new policy.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Amphetamines did not artificially alter anyone physically and provide them with increased strength.

No, they just help players deal with fatigue. They are PEDs. End of debate. Hell, Gaylord Perry is an acknowledged, beloved and revered CHEATER and he is in the hall, so baseball needs to get off of its high horse. It's ENTERTAINMENT, nothing more or less.

 

[Guinness]

Either let steroid users in or kick anphetimine users out. PEDs are PEDs.

Exactly this.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Amphetamines did not artificially alter anyone physically and provide them with increased strength.

It also seems that often the reason one used steroids/HGH was to recover from injury.

 

[br801]

No, they just help players deal with fatigue. They are PEDs. End of debate. Hell, Gaylord Perry is an acknowledged, beloved and revered CHEATER and he is in the hall, so baseball needs to get off of its high horse. It's ENTERTAINMENT, nothing more or less.

I wasn't interesting in debating anything. I was just drawing a distinction between steroids and amphetamines.

 

[br801]

It also seems that often the reason one used steroids/HGH was to recover from injury.

That is probably true. But once a few players figured out what a wonderful training aid they had on their hands, all hell broke loose and we wound up with a bunch of guys having "second career"numbers that far surpassed what they had been able to do in their supposed prime career years.

I get why they did it, and understand it wasn't technically prohibited at the time, and recognize that they had enablers throughout the sport, but it nevertheless tainted the game in my opinion.

 

[Knicks411]

That is probably true. But once a few players figured out what a wonderful training aid they had on their hands, all hell broke loose and we wound up with a bunch of guys having "second career"numbers that far surpassed what they had been able to do in their supposed prime career years.

I get why they did it, and understand it wasn't technically prohibited at the time, and recognize that they had enablers throughout the sport, but it nevertheless tainted the game in my opinion.

I think the reality is probably that such a large percentage of guys were using that there wasn't quite as much of an effect as you (speaking generally) might think.

 

[br801]

I think the reality is probably that such a large percentage of guys were using that there wasn't quite as much of an effect as you (speaking generally) might think.

Yes, so many were likely using by the height of the "steroid era" that it would be impossible to quantify the statistical effects, but there is no denying that some guys had otherwise inexplicable bumps in their performance.

And much of what you could see with your own eyes was also inexplicable. Suddenly, guys who previously could only drive the ball out with their best swings were hitting opposite field home runs off the end of the bat. Granted, some of that may have been due to the parks they were playing in and/or "livelier" balls, but I believe steroids had to somehow be a contributing factor.

 

[Knicks411]

Yes, so many were likely using by the height of the "steroid era" that it would be impossible to quantify the statistical effects, but there is no denying that some guys had otherwise inexplicable bumps in their performance.

Definitely true. But there have always been guys like that. Roger Maris hit 61 HR in a year!

And much of what you could see with your own eyes was also inexplicable. Suddenly, guys who previously could only drive the ball out with their best swings were hitting opposite field home runs off the end of the bat. Granted, some of that may have been due to the parks they were playing in and/or "livelier" balls, but I believe steroids had to somehow be a contributing factor.

I think I saw some stats on opposite field Hr recently; it's crazy how few there are now. Citi Field is a huge park, but I don't think a Met lefty has hit an opposite field HR in the history of the stadium. (Edit: I don't think this is true anymore; i believe Captain Kirk has done it this year)

 

[br801]

Definitely true. But there have always been guys like that. Roger Maris hit 61 HR in a year!

In defense of Maris, he was a legitimate home run hitter (until hand injuries diminished his power later in his career) and he was the AL MVP in 1960. Besides the Maris/Mantle home run race, the 1961 AL season also produced aberrant offensive performances from other players (Norm Cash, off the top of my head), and offense in general spiked that season. It was an expansion year, so the pitching was watered down a bit, and perhaps a livelier ball was introduced as well.

 

[Knicks411]

In defense of Maris, he was a legitimate home run hitter (until hand injuries diminished his power later in his career) and he was the AL MVP in 1960. Besides the Maris/Mantle home run race, the 1961 AL season also produced aberrant offensive performances from other players (Norm Cash, off the top of my head), and offense in general spiked that season. It was an expansion year, so the pitching was watered down a bit, and perhaps a livelier ball was introduced as well.

Yeah, but Maris went from 39 to 61, if memory is correct.

Just saying, if someone in 2004 went from 39 to 61 HR, that would absolutely be used as evidence he was juicing.

 

[br801]

Yeah, but Maris went from 39 to 61, if memory is correct.

Just saying, if someone in 2004 went from 39 to 61 HR, that would absolutely be used as evidence he was juicing.

I get you.

And I wanted to edit what I said above. Just looked it up, and HR/team in the AL increased significantly from 136 to 153 in 1961 compared to 1960. However, BA, OBP and SLG barely increased, and runs per game only increased by 0.1 runs. So I'll try not to talk out of my a$$ the next time.

 

[Knicks411]

I get you.

And I wanted to edit what I said above. Just looked it up, and HR/team in the AL increased significantly from 136 to 153 in 1961 compared to 1960. However, BA, OBP and SLG barely increased, and runs per game only increased by 0.1 runs. So I'll try not to talk out of my a$$ the next time.

Hmm, that's strange. If the HR went up so much you'd expect at least slugging% to go up more as well.

I always thought of the 61 season as being one of more offense as well. Didn't Norm Cash hit 363 that year or something?

 

[br801]

Hmm, that's strange. If the HR went up so much you'd expect at least slugging% to go up more as well.

I always thought of the 61 season as being one of more offense as well. Didn't Norm Cash hit 363 that year or something?

1960: .255/,328/.388
1961: .256/.329/.395

SLG was up .007, no doubt from the increase in HRs. The league went from 8 teams to 10, so I guess the impact of the additional lousy pitchers was offset by the new lousy hitters.

That season by Cash was remarkable, especially compared to the rest of his career. But I remember Cash later admitting he used a corked bat that year. So maybe it wasn't the steroids that put Sammy Sosa over the top after all.