Locking in on WRs

[upperdeck]

I think too many are getting held up on the idea that TD locks in on WRs.. Listen again to the PC and you can see that the issue isnt always locking in.. We dont run a standard route tree. We for the most part of 2 or 3 option trees for most WRs. We seldom run plays where the WR runs from A to B.. You can argue maybe out skill set doesnt work for this style offense but it really actually works better in some ways for players less skilled if they are smart enough to handle it.

Many times the plays where TD looks to be locked in is because thats what he is supposed to be doing. The pre-snap tells him which WR is probably where to throw it. then the WR has the options based one what the D does to run the route to be in the best spot. Now if the WR doesnt do that well or goes the wrong way TD has 2 choices throw it before the route comes open and hope the WR does go the right way or wait it out.. Again that depends on the type of throw how much lead time can be given.

Coach hinted in the PC that maybe he needs to dumb it down, limit the options and probably also limit the big play chances. Only the coaches in the film room know whats going on and why WRs are not getting open.. But if you are the QB and the play design says throw to the X and the X is supposed to run a curl but runs a fade and you are waiting to throw the curl just because the Y comes open does not mean you are not seeing the field..

Many of the throws out of bounds where last 2nd throws late in the clock cycle.. Yeah he needs to get WRs a chance but not all of them did he really have time to get set and make good throws..

if the QB is not making the correct reads then coaches need to fix that or move on.. The fact TD is still the QB lends itself to the fact he is making the first correct read.. Where he struggles is coming off that read to see the field and extend the play. That may be where Shrader is a help as he looks to be the type that will extend plays.. But is that at the cost of the first half of the play book?

 

[PhatOrange]

I don't see how you can dumb it down anymore. It's devolved from a 'take what the defense gives you scheme' to the staff having to call a 1 read set play. They give him no decision making. Where he struggles - as you mention above - is why they are in a quandary.

And honestly dude, you don't have to be a coach in a film room to pause a dvr recording to see what our WRs are doing. They are actually not off camera that much and if they are it's because they ran fly patterns and aren't in the play anyways.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think too many are getting held up on the idea that TD locks in on WRs.. Listen again to the PC and you can see that the issue isnt always locking in.. We dont run a standard route tree. We for the most part of 2 or 3 option trees for most WRs. We seldom run plays where the WR runs from A to B.. You can argue maybe out skill set doesnt work for this style offense but it really actually works better in some ways for players less skilled if they are smart enough to handle it.

Many times the plays where TD looks to be locked in is because thats what he is supposed to be doing. The pre-snap tells him which WR is probably where to throw it. then the WR has the options based one what the D does to run the route to be in the best spot. Now if the WR doesnt do that well or goes the wrong way TD has 2 choices throw it before the route comes open and hope the WR does go the right way or wait it out.. Again that depends on the type of throw how much lead time can be given.

Coach hinted in the PC that maybe he needs to dumb it down, limit the options and probably also limit the big play chances. Only the coaches in the film room know whats going on and why WRs are not getting open.. But if you are the QB and the play design says throw to the X and the X is supposed to run a curl but runs a fade and you are waiting to throw the curl just because the Y comes open does not mean you are not seeing the field..

Many of the throws out of bounds where last 2nd throws late in the clock cycle.. Yeah he needs to get WRs a chance but not all of them did he really have time to get set and make good throws..

if the QB is not making the correct reads then coaches need to fix that or move on.. The fact TD is still the QB lends itself to the fact he is making the first correct read.. Where he struggles is coming off that read to see the field and extend the play. That may be where Shrader is a help as he looks to be the type that will extend plays.. But is that at the cost of the first half of the play book?

If he is waiting to throw the ball after reading the WR, it is already too late. You have to trust that you are making the same read of the D otherwise the option route is useless. You see QBs and WRs miss this in the NFL all the time. It happens. But those result in incomplete passes to no one. That is better than a sack.

 

[JRHEETER]

I think too many are getting held up on the idea that TD locks in on WRs.. Listen again to the PC and you can see that the issue isnt always locking in.. We dont run a standard route tree. We for the most part of 2 or 3 option trees for most WRs. We seldom run plays where the WR runs from A to B.. You can argue maybe out skill set doesnt work for this style offense but it really actually works better in some ways for players less skilled if they are smart enough to handle it.

Many times the plays where TD looks to be locked in is because thats what he is supposed to be doing. The pre-snap tells him which WR is probably where to throw it. then the WR has the options based one what the D does to run the route to be in the best spot. Now if the WR doesnt do that well or goes the wrong way TD has 2 choices throw it before the route comes open and hope the WR does go the right way or wait it out.. Again that depends on the type of throw how much lead time can be given.

Coach hinted in the PC that maybe he needs to dumb it down, limit the options and probably also limit the big play chances. Only the coaches in the film room know whats going on and why WRs are not getting open.. But if you are the QB and the play design says throw to the X and the X is supposed to run a curl but runs a fade and you are waiting to throw the curl just because the Y comes open does not mean you are not seeing the field..

Many of the throws out of bounds where last 2nd throws late in the clock cycle.. Yeah he needs to get WRs a chance but not all of them did he really have time to get set and make good throws..

if the QB is not making the correct reads then coaches need to fix that or move on.. The fact TD is still the QB lends itself to the fact he is making the first correct read.. Where he struggles is coming off that read to see the field and extend the play. That may be where Shrader is a help as he looks to be the type that will extend plays.. But is that at the cost of the first half of the play book?

Thats the problem, he only takes the pre-play reads.

The defenses are disguising the plays now because they know TD only goes by what the defense first shows him not what he is seeing once the ball is in motion.

Which is why people are rightfully accusing him of locking in on a receiver.

Before he even starts the play, TD and the coaching staff have already determined who they are throwing too, no matter what

 

[upperdeck]

If he is waiting to throw the ball after reading the WR, it is already too late. You have to trust that you are making the same read of the D otherwise the option route is useless. You see QBs and WRs miss this in the NFL all the time. It happens. But those result in incomplete passes to no one. That is better than a sack.

thats on the coaches and the pass play called though.. not every throw is made before the guy gets open.. Waiting can be bad, but bad throws can lead to INTs too.. Its really trust more than anything.. go watch Ed and Phillips 75% of those short completions where thrown after the read.. I agree though on some of the longer throws you have to make the throws earlier and those are also more of the 1 option routes.

 

[upperdeck]

Thats the problem, he only takes the pre-play reads.

The defenses are disguising the plays now because they know TD only goes by what the defense first shows him not what he is seeing once the ball is in motion.

Which is why people are rightfully accusing him of locking in on a receiver.

Before he even starts the play, TD and the coaching staff have already determined who they are throwing too, no matter what

I think so too.. but thats also why the tree routes have options and not just a single play. Thats the same for every team though not just SU.. every team has the pre-snap read and throw .

The difference is that many offenses when the post-snap happens the QB comes off to a 2nd WR where as in ours the WR often comes off to a 2nd route.. Who knows how many times the decision to stay on the first WR with the option route would be better served to go to the 2nd WR. Its not like we see the all-22 to tell what would make more sense.

I think we get so focused on our issues we dont really see how many other teams struggle with the same concepts.. We really lack a #1 WR.. if Taj was the #2 I think we would be fine.. I think we have alot of #3 though.

 

[ElwoodJBlues]

I’ll say this. I actually noticed when GS moved his head and went through his reads when he dropped back. I don’t notice that with TD.

 

[JRHEETER]

I think so too.. but thats also why the tree routes have options and not just a single play. Thats the same for every team though not just SU.. every team has the pre-snap read and throw .

The difference is that many offenses when the post-snap happens the QB comes off to a 2nd WR where as in ours the WR often comes off to a 2nd route.. Who knows how many times the decision to stay on the first WR with the option route would be better served to go to the 2nd WR. Its not like we see the all-22 to tell what would make more sense.

I think we get so focused on our issues we dont really see how many other teams struggle with the same concepts.. We really lack a #1 WR.. if Taj was the #2 I think we would be fine.. I think we have alot of #3 though.

Agreed we have a lot of #3 recievers

That is on Dino and the offensive staff for not recruiting well enough…..

 

[SUFan44]

This offense ran 10000000000x better in Dino's first year.

That means one of two things:
1) Dino can't recruit to save his life.
2) The QB on that team was 100000000x better than the current one.

And if 2 is true, 1 is also true.

 

[JRHEETER]

This offense ran 10000000000x better in Dino's first year.

That means one of two things:
1) Dino can't recruit to save his life.
2) The QB on that team was 100000000x better than the current one.

And if 2 is true, 1 is also true.

Well yeah we know Dino is awful at recruiting

Just look at the defensive side of the ball, we have studs everywhere and Dino and co are usually not involved with the recruiting on that side.

 

[PhatOrange]

I’ll say this. I actually noticed when GS moved his head and went through his reads when he dropped back. I don’t notice that with TD.

Yep I agree with this. It's not subtle either.

 

[CbusCuse]

This is going on the 3rd year where the passing game is just really bad. I think i'm at the point where I wish they would have scrapped the offense and did something different. Even a mediocre offense would have us playing pretty well this year with our Defense playing as well as it is. But what we are seeing from the passing game is just not working schematically for whatever reason. Devito is the better pure passer and knows the offense better. His running ability has actually been OK this year which is nice. He still isn't good under pressure and good ACC teams are going to either blitz him or drop everyone into coverage giving him no open option to throw to. Then the pressure eventually gets to him, so he is going to get pressure either way. Getting Davis back at Guard should certainly help though as Tisdale has not looked awesome on passing downs. Hopefully that is this week. I would like to get Shrader a lot of play against Albany to get him some reps, get him comfortable and break him in. It seems like we need to change something and having his dual threat ability and his ability to stay alive longer in the pocket extending plays could help a lot.

Also I really disliked seeing the WR depth chart to start the season when Sherod was our second outside WR. That made me lose some hope. We have to have a better option. He has been in the system so long we pretty much know what we have there upside wise. Maybe he is slightly better right now than others with his experience but in a couple games after games reps someone else would have to be better than him and would have to be the better decision. If not then we have certainly failed in recruiting. I'm sure they view the first 4 games of the season as the most critical though and are worried about playing someone without any experience. So maybe play some other WR this week against Albany and get them some experience? So i'd like to see Alford get the nod there. Ja'Vontae Williams was banged up right...is he still? And i'll add while we all like Benson's speed and potential to stretch the field in the passing game, if we aren't going to throw to him i'm not sure he should be the one playing. Mang seems better suited to how the position is being used.

 

[upperdeck]

What i dont get is that we have given up on some plays.. We dont run the Bubbles much when I think thats a skill our WRs have now with this group.. We run a tunnel screen but no normal ones. I think we gave up on the runs too fast when the RBs missed a few nice holes, We havent used the TEs at all. What we have done is set up about 3-4 over the top plays a game and we have only completed 1.. if that was 2 a game we are probably undefeated right now.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I’ll be honest I have a hard time looking off my first receiver in EA NCAA 12 - it’s not intuitive to check down and somehow still be aware of the rush. It takes a special QB to do these things and unfortunately we need a special quarterback to offset our other personnel limitations.

 

[PhatOrange]

What i dont get is that we have given up on some plays.. We dont run the Bubbles much when I think thats a skill our WRs have now with this group.. We run a tunnel screen but no normal ones. I think we gave up on the runs too fast when the RBs missed a few nice holes, We havent used the TEs at all. What we have done is set up about 3-4 over the top plays a game and we have only completed 1.. if that was 2 a game we are probably undefeated right now.

agreed. I thought we'd bubble screen ruckers to death and I'm not sure we ran one. In my mind I wanted to attack them sideways a bit, get away from their heavy box, and see what happens if you make one guy miss. We dont run them much anymore and I think it suits our skill set some. (hate the tunnel screen and ours is terrible.)

 

[Newhouser]

This offense ran 10000000000x better in Dino's first year.

That means one of two things:
1) Dino can't recruit to save his life.
2) The QB on that team was 100000000x better than the current one.

And if 2 is true, 1 is also true.

3) the WR's were 1000000000th times better than the current crew

 

[CuseCrew08]

Question: Do all WR's have option routes for every play? Or does one guy have an option route based on what they see the defense do? If they are all running option routes no wonder TD can't figure out where to go with the ball.

 

[Domedog84]

agreed. I thought we'd bubble screen ruckers to death and I'm not sure we ran one. In my mind I wanted to attack them sideways a bit, get away from their heavy box, and see what happens if you make one guy miss. We dont run them much anymore and I think it suits our skill set some. (hate the tunnel screen and ours is terrible.)

We ran one early in the game off tempo, but then it disappeared, just like running the ball...

I agree on our tunnel screen, has a very low success rate

 

[upperdeck]

We ran one early in the game off tempo, but then it disappeared, just like running the ball...

I agree on our tunnel screen, has a very low success rate

not a fan of tunnel screens.. It requires a much more athletic Oline and probably a bit faster WRs too.

we ran a couple vs Ohio.. No idea though we had some in the playbook but threw to other people. the one we ran was fine.. anything positive yards is fine to me.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Our WRs are just Umass/Uconn level bad.

Maybe some guys make a jump next couple weeks.

 

[AngryOtto]

Our WRs are just Umass/Uconn level bad.

Maybe some guys make a jump next couple weeks.

The problem with wr is we really do not know what the others can do. We recruited all this height but DB will not play them. This has been an issue on offense for a while. D rotates. No real rotation at all on offense.
On Taj. So hit and miss. Makes good plays and then drops balls. Not a good number 1 option.

 

[SUFan44]

3) the WR's were 1000000000th times better than the current crew

See #1.

I would also add that some of these younger WR's received some pretty big-time offers coming out of HS.

Unless they weren't legitimate, I have to wonder how/why they aren't able to do better immediately. It isn't as if WR is a position that takes forever to learn/grow into like OL or DL.

I could list a number of WR's both in SU's past and around the country that have come in as true freshmen and contributed immediately. Taj Harris being a prime example.

 

[blizz]

Question: Do all WR's have option routes for every play? Or does one guy have an option route based on what they see the defense do? If they are all running option routes no wonder TD can't figure out where to go with the ball.

One wide receiver per play based on matchup and coverage

 

[MDCuse]

I think it's much simpler. I really don't think TD knows what he's looking at pre-snap or as the play progresses.