Odds and Ends - Offense

[Orangepace]

I was looking through some of the SU all-time leaders and was surprised by a few things.

• We pay a ton of homage to the great #44's and rightfully so. But we had some really great non-44's that don't get nearly as much attention except the first guy of course. The first two guys were before I was introduced to the world and this was the first time I really dove into the historical stats:
  • Joe Morris (well, this guy does) - 813 carries / 4,299 yds / 5.29 ypc / 113.1 ypg / 25 Tds / 22 100-yd games
  • Larry Csonka - 594 carries / 2,934 yds / 4.94 ypc / 104.8 ypg / 19 Tds / 15 100-yd games
  • Walter Reyes - 625 carries / 3,424 yds / 5.48 ypc / 77.8 ypg / 45 Tds / 14 100-yd games
  • There are more, but those guys were so damn good.
• Now this really shocked me... In the history of the school, there has only been 2 QB's who have thrown for a completion percentage above 60% for their career:
  • Greg Paulus - 67.7%
  • Ryan Nassib - 60.3%
  • I guess it shouldn't shock me, but I've always used 60% as my threshold for judging QB's. I guess I should reassess that downward.
• We have had 9 QB's who have averaged greater than 7.0 yds/attempt. Averaging better than 8.0 yds/attempt is really impressive. The top three actually did even better than that:
  • Marvin Graves - Averaged 9.0 yds/attempt
  • Donovan McNabb - Averaged 8.9 yds/attempt
  • Don McPherson - Averaged 8.5 yds/attempt
• As impressed as I've always been with Marvin Graves, one thing I had forgotten about (and hope I do after writing this) is that he threw for 48 Tds and 45 Ints. Yikes!
• There are a few receivers that also deserve even more celebration around here:
  • Alec Lemon - 1st all-time in receptions (he has 44.6% more receptions than #2) / 2nd all-time in receiving yards / 4th all-time in Tds
  • Scott Schwedes (wish I was grown enough to see him because I was shocked by his stats) - 2nd all-time in receptions / 5th all-time in yards / 6th all-time in Tds
  • Jarrod West (we love to rag on him) - 5th all-time in receptions / 7th all-time in yards / If only he could ever score tds?!?!
  • Quinton Spotwood (man I loved watching him return punts) - 9th all-time in receptions / 10th all-time in yards / 8th all-time in Tds

I'm sure a lot of the old-timers around here are well aware of some of these things, but considering all the negative talk of offense around here these days, I thought why not shine a nice light on some of the accomplishments these guys achieved.

Please bestow upon me some more old facts that I can read up on.

 

[Toga]

Bill Hurley

"Bill was a four-year starter at Syracuse (as well as captain and team MVP junior and senior years), and set 23 game, season, and career records. He finished his Orange career ranked first in passing, first in total offensive yards, and third in rushing, the latter an astounding statistic at a school which counts Jim Brown, Larry Csonka, and Floyd Little among its alumni. Along the way, Hurley became just the third quarterback in modern NCAA history to rush for at least 2,000 yards and pass for at least 3,000 yards in a career."

 

[OrangeAl]

Marvin Graves threw a lot of interceptions, but the best was when a WVU player's head intercepted his throw out of bounds.

 

[jekelish]

Honestly, if Walter Reyes had played in any other era, how much better would be be remembered? What impressive numbers for his career.

 

[anomander]

I was looking through some of the SU all-time leaders and was surprised by a few things. [*]We pay a ton of homage to the great #44's and rightfully so. But we had some really great non-44's that don't get nearly as much attention except the first guy of course. The first two guys were before I was introduced to the world and this was the first time I really dove into the historical stats: [*]Joe Morris (well, this guy does) - 813 carries / 4,299 yds / 5.29 ypc / 113.1 ypg / 25 Tds / 22 100-yd games [*]Larry Csonka - 594 carries / 2,934 yds / 4.94 ypc / 104.8 ypg / 19 Tds / 15 100-yd games [*]Walter Reyes - 625 carries / 3,424 yds / 5.48 ypc / 77.8 ypg / 45 Tds / 14 100-yd games [*]There are more, but those guys were so damn good. [*]Now this really shocked me... In the history of the school, there has only been 2 QB's who have thrown for a completion percentage above 60% for their career: [*]Greg Paulus - 67.7% [*]Ryan Nassib - 60.3% [*]I guess it shouldn't shock me, but I've always used 60% as my threshold for judging QB's. I guess I should reassess that downward. [*]We have had 9 QB's who have averaged greater than 7.0 yds/attempt. Averaging better than 8.0 yds/attempt is really impressive. The top three actually did even better than that: [*]Marvin Graves - Averaged 9.0 yds/attempt [*]Donovan McNabb - Averaged 8.9 yds/attempt [*]Don McPherson - Averaged 8.5 yds/attempt [*]As impressed as I've always been with Marvin Graves, one thing I had forgotten about (and hope I do after writing this) is that he threw for 48 Tds and 45 Ints. Yikes! [*]There are a few receivers that also deserve even more celebration around here: [*]Alec Lemon - 1st all-time in receptions (he has 44.6% more receptions than #2) / 2nd all-time in receiving yards / 4th all-time in Tds [*]Scott Schwedes (wish I was grown enough to see him because I was shocked by his stats) - 2nd all-time in receptions / 5th all-time in yards / 6th all-time in Tds [*]Jarrod West (we love to rag on him) - 5th all-time in receptions / 7th all-time in yards / If only he could ever score tds?!?! [*]Quinton Spotwood (man I loved watching him return punts) - 9th all-time in receptions / 10th all-time in yards / 8th all-time in Tds I'm sure a lot of the old-timers around here are well aware of some of these things, but considering all the negative talk of offense around here these days, I thought why not shine a nice light on some of the accomplishments these guys achieved. Please bestow upon me some more old facts that I can read up on.

A lot of recent WR's in the history books, but the game has completed changed from even as recent as the early 90's. The days or passing 12-15 times a game are over. If some of our grest receivers (Harrison, Moore, etc) played in today's modern offenses they would have crazy numbers.

 

[Millhouse]

I was looking through some of the SU all-time leaders and was surprised by a few things.

• We pay a ton of homage to the great #44's and rightfully so. But we had some really great non-44's that don't get nearly as much attention except the first guy of course. The first two guys were before I was introduced to the world and this was the first time I really dove into the historical stats:
  • Joe Morris (well, this guy does) - 813 carries / 4,299 yds / 5.29 ypc / 113.1 ypg / 25 Tds / 22 100-yd games
  • Larry Csonka - 594 carries / 2,934 yds / 4.94 ypc / 104.8 ypg / 19 Tds / 15 100-yd games
  • Walter Reyes - 625 carries / 3,424 yds / 5.48 ypc / 77.8 ypg / 45 Tds / 14 100-yd games
  • There are more, but those guys were so damn good.
• Now this really shocked me... In the history of the school, there has only been 2 QB's who have thrown for a completion percentage above 60% for their career:
  • Greg Paulus - 67.7%
  • Ryan Nassib - 60.3%
  • I guess it shouldn't shock me, but I've always used 60% as my threshold for judging QB's. I guess I should reassess that downward.
• We have had 9 QB's who have averaged greater than 7.0 yds/attempt. Averaging better than 8.0 yds/attempt is really impressive. The top three actually did even better than that:
  • Marvin Graves - Averaged 9.0 yds/attempt
  • Donovan McNabb - Averaged 8.9 yds/attempt
  • Don McPherson - Averaged 8.5 yds/attempt
• As impressed as I've always been with Marvin Graves, one thing I had forgotten about (and hope I do after writing this) is that he threw for 48 Tds and 45 Ints. Yikes!
• There are a few receivers that also deserve even more celebration around here:
  • Alec Lemon - 1st all-time in receptions (he has 44.6% more receptions than #2) / 2nd all-time in receiving yards / 4th all-time in Tds
  • Scott Schwedes (wish I was grown enough to see him because I was shocked by his stats) - 2nd all-time in receptions / 5th all-time in yards / 6th all-time in Tds
  • Jarrod West (we love to rag on him) - 5th all-time in receptions / 7th all-time in yards / If only he could ever score tds?!?!
  • Quinton Spotwood (man I loved watching him return punts) - 9th all-time in receptions / 10th all-time in yards / 8th all-time in Tds

I'm sure a lot of the old-timers around here are well aware of some of these things, but considering all the negative talk of offense around here these days, I thought why not shine a nice light on some of the accomplishments these guys achieved.

Please bestow upon me some more old facts that I can read up on.

Did you ever see Randy Edsall's stats?

He threw one pass in his career. It got intercepted. LOL

If you look at adjusted yards/attempt, the list looks like this. Scharr has to be the most underrated. The difference between him and nassib is the same than the difference between graves and nunes

Player AY/A ?
Donovan McNabb 9.3
Bill Scharr 8.8
Don McPherson 8.1
Todd Philcox 7.9
Marvin Graves 7.8
Kevin Mason 7.4
Mark McDonald 7.4
Ryan Nassib* 7.1
Chuck Zimmerman* 7.1
Madei Williams 6.6
Bill Hurley 6.3
Dick Easterly 6.3
Andrew Robinson 6.2
Troy Nunes 6.1
R.J. Anderson 6
Greg Paulus 5.8
Dave Sarette 5.6
Terrel Hunt 5.5
Perry Patterson* 5.3
Cameron Dantley 5.3

Prior to Nassib's senior year, he was at 6.5, worse than Madei Williams. Big jump in a year

 

[Millhouse]

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/randy-edsall-1.html

PS when i look up 1978 SU, I see Mike Rotunda had an interception. Irwin R. Schyster takes and takes and takes

 

[OttoMets]

Did you ever see Randy Edsall's stats?

He threw one pass in his career. It got intercepted. LOL

If you look at adjusted yards/attempt, the list looks like this. Scharr has to be the most underrated. The difference between him and nassib is the same than the difference between graves and nunes

Player AY/A ?
Donovan McNabb 9.3
Bill Scharr 8.8
Don McPherson 8.1
Todd Philcox 7.9
Marvin Graves 7.8
Kevin Mason 7.4
Mark McDonald 7.4
Ryan Nassib* 7.1
Chuck Zimmerman* 7.1
Madei Williams 6.6
Bill Hurley 6.3
Dick Easterly 6.3
Andrew Robinson 6.2
Troy Nunes 6.1
R.J. Anderson 6
Greg Paulus 5.8
Dave Sarette 5.6
Terrel Hunt 5.5
Perry Patterson* 5.3
Cameron Dantley 5.3

Prior to Nassib's senior year, he was at 6.5, worse than Madei Williams. Big jump in a year

Mark McDonald could barely see the field during his tenure but he'd probably have been our starting quarterback in each* of the 16 seasons since McNabb graduated. Yikes.

*Unless Pasqualoni wanted to platoon him with an inferior player in 1999.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

Schwedes was also a 2nd round draft pick by the Dolphins. I believe he holds the record for receiving yards in a game with something like 252 or so. A very good punt receiver as well. Rob Drummond averaged 6.7 and 6.0 yards a carry in his Junior and Senior years. Both ironically on 124 carries. He was starting but splitting time with Michael Owens.

 

[Millhouse]

Mark McDonald could barely see the field during his tenure but he'd probably have been our starting quarterback in each* of the 16 seasons since McNabb graduated. Yikes.

*Unless Pasqualoni wanted to platoon him with an inferior player in 1999.

i torture myself thinking about what those older players would do in a rich rodriguez type offense today

this isn't a knock on the offense then. it was a different era. there were so many guys back then that would've excelled in a spread to run offense. heck, i bet downing would've been excellent

 

[dasher]

Did you ever see Randy Edsall's stats?

He threw one pass in his career. It got intercepted. LOL

If you look at adjusted yards/attempt, the list looks like this. Scharr has to be the most underrated. The difference between him and nassib is the same than the difference between graves and nunes

Player AY/A ?
Donovan McNabb 9.3
Bill Scharr 8.8
Don McPherson 8.1
Todd Philcox 7.9
Marvin Graves 7.8
Kevin Mason 7.4
Mark McDonald 7.4
Ryan Nassib* 7.1
Chuck Zimmerman* 7.1
Madei Williams 6.6
Bill Hurley 6.3
Dick Easterly 6.3
Andrew Robinson 6.2
Troy Nunes 6.1
R.J. Anderson 6
Greg Paulus 5.8
Dave Sarette 5.6
Terrel Hunt 5.5
Perry Patterson* 5.3
Cameron Dantley 5.3

Prior to Nassib's senior year, he was at 6.5, worse than Madei Williams. Big jump in a year

true story on that interception. After HCRE threw it, Frank maloney just screamed at HCRE you 'ed me, edsall. He kept yelling it over and over again.

 

[dasher]

i torture myself thinking about what those older players would do in a rich rodriguez type offense today

this isn't a knock on the offense then. it was a different era. there were so many guys back then that would've excelled in a spread to run offense. heck, i bet downing would've been excellent

Downing would have been the best qb in the last 16 years except for Nassib.

 

[RF2044]

Downing would have been the best qb in the last 16 years except for Nassib.

No kidding. We used to have an embarrassment of riches at QB. Wendall Lowery, Downing, etc. as guys who were very good, stuck behind even better starters they had no chance to unseat.

Imagine if Downing were playing now, how above average he'd be.

We just need one of the five currently in house to pan out. I don't care which one of them it is, but at least one of them needs to pan at.

 

[jekelish]

A lot of recent WR's in the history books, but the game has completed changed from even as recent as the early 90's. The days or passing 12-15 times a game are over. If some of our grest receivers (Harrison, Moore, etc) played in today's modern offenses they would have crazy numbers.

No kidding. I remember the game we beat Rutgers 70-14, I think we threw the ball like, 6-8 times in the entire game. We were just so dominant with the option that we didn't need to throw it. What an embarrassment of offensive weapons we had on those McNabb teams.

 

[RF2044]

No kidding. I remember the game we beat Rutgers 70-14, I think we threw the ball like, 6-8 times in the entire game. We were just so dominant with the option that we didn't need to throw it. What an embarrassment of offensive weapons we had on those McNabb teams.

I watched the 98 Michigan blowout not long ago with my father on DVD. They couldn't even slow us down. Konrad had a catch in the flat where he was so wide open for a TD, he actually walked it on from about 10 yards out.

A guy like Konrad was a big time recruit--a kid we offered #44 to. On most other teams, he'd be the featured weapon that the entire offense would be structured around. On those teams, he was a complimentary piece who wasn't featured. Embarrassment of offensive weapons, like you said. Hope we can get back to that at some point in the near future.

Step one, better system.
Step two, better execution.
Step three, better results.
Step four, better recruiting which = better skilled talent

 

[Millhouse]

No kidding. We used to have an embarrassment of riches at QB. Wendall Lowery, Downing, etc. as guys who were very good, stuck behind even better starters they had no chance to unseat.

Imagine if Downing were playing now, how above average he'd be.

We just need one of the five currently in house to pan out. I don't care which one of them it is, but at least one of them needs to pan at.

to be fair, when he did throw the ball, it turned out pretty bad. i wouldn't expect his passing numbers to be good but he'd be a lot better than hunts been thus far i think

 

[Oakland]

And Reyes was injuried much of his Sr year - the start of a ~6 yr series of injuries to key SU players.

Honestly, if Walter Reyes had played in any other era, how much better would be be remembered? What impressive numbers for his career.

 

[RF2044]

to be fair, when he did throw the ball, it turned out pretty bad. i wouldn't expect his passing numbers to be good but he'd be a lot better than hunts been thus far i think

Yeah, I'm not suggesting he'd be an NFL prospect or anything, just that he'd be better than what we [mostly] had post-McNabb, and better than what we have now.

 

[RF2044]

And Reyes was injuried much of his Sr year - the start of a ~6 yr series of injuries to key SU players.

That's a great point. I was / am a HUGE Reyes fan. Kid would have rewritten the record books if he hadn't dislocated his shoulder senior season. What a shame--there's no doubt in my mind he would have been a good NFL player, too, but he never adequately recovered from that injury.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

Morris injured his shoulder badly as well. I think it was the first year in the Dome. As I remember he crashed into an unpadded wall. After that, the powers that be determined perhaps padding a cement wall would be advantageous to player safety.

 

[kcsu]

What i would do for Philcox this year

 

[Scooch]

Great data!

I wouldn't reassess your 60% completion standard for QBs. What that data shows is how badly SU QBs have been in the "modern" offensive era.

And the data starkly illustrates what the SU offensive identity had been for years... running QBs with downfield completion ability paired with fast, bruising RBs and big play WRs.

 

[domedog]

I was looking through some of the SU all-time leaders and was surprised by a few things.

• We pay a ton of homage to the great #44's and rightfully so. But we had some really great non-44's that don't get nearly as much attention except the first guy of course. The first two guys were before I was introduced to the world and this was the first time I really dove into the historical stats:
  • Joe Morris (well, this guy does) - 813 carries / 4,299 yds / 5.29 ypc / 113.1 ypg / 25 Tds / 22 100-yd games
  • Larry Csonka - 594 carries / 2,934 yds / 4.94 ypc / 104.8 ypg / 19 Tds / 15 100-yd games
  • Walter Reyes - 625 carries / 3,424 yds / 5.48 ypc / 77.8 ypg / 45 Tds / 14 100-yd games
  • There are more, but those guys were so damn good.
• Now this really shocked me... In the history of the school, there has only been 2 QB's who have thrown for a completion percentage above 60% for their career:
  • Greg Paulus - 67.7%
  • Ryan Nassib - 60.3%
  • I guess it shouldn't shock me, but I've always used 60% as my threshold for judging QB's. I guess I should reassess that downward.
• We have had 9 QB's who have averaged greater than 7.0 yds/attempt. Averaging better than 8.0 yds/attempt is really impressive. The top three actually did even better than that:
  • Marvin Graves - Averaged 9.0 yds/attempt
  • Donovan McNabb - Averaged 8.9 yds/attempt
  • Don McPherson - Averaged 8.5 yds/attempt
• As impressed as I've always been with Marvin Graves, one thing I had forgotten about (and hope I do after writing this) is that he threw for 48 Tds and 45 Ints. Yikes!
• There are a few receivers that also deserve even more celebration around here:
  • Alec Lemon - 1st all-time in receptions (he has 44.6% more receptions than #2) / 2nd all-time in receiving yards / 4th all-time in Tds
  • Scott Schwedes (wish I was grown enough to see him because I was shocked by his stats) - 2nd all-time in receptions / 5th all-time in yards / 6th all-time in Tds
  • Jarrod West (we love to rag on him) - 5th all-time in receptions / 7th all-time in yards / If only he could ever score tds?!?!
  • Quinton Spotwood (man I loved watching him return punts) - 9th all-time in receptions / 10th all-time in yards / 8th all-time in Tds

I'm sure a lot of the old-timers around here are well aware of some of these things, but considering all the negative talk of offense around here these days, I thought why not shine a nice light on some of the accomplishments these guys achieved.

Please bestow upon me some more old facts that I can read up on.

Just have to say I love this thread. Lot's of good info and brings back many fond memories of the players who have made our Saturday afternoons in the fall special.

 

[SU68]

Two things to note:

1. Until Ol' Ben retired, the quarterback position was somewhat limited as a ball carrier and distributer to one running back or another, similar to a point guard in basketball. We really didn't recruit passing quarterbacks because he didn't believe in it.

2. Freshmen were not permitted by the NCAA to play varsity basketball or football until 1972, so when you are comparing players from different eras, you have to use "per game" as the denominator to level the data.

 

[VaSaltine]

Honestly, if Walter Reyes had played in any other era, how much better would be be remembered? What impressive numbers for his career.

I remember the public campaign we started for Reyes for Heisman coming off his junior year. If I recall he was hurt fairly early early into his senior year and the promotion campaign fizzled pretty quickly. That's unfortunate because he was a fantastic back.