Play calling issues

[upperdeck]

Some have said we need a new play caller? My question is that this scheme is so predicated on numbers in the box and decisions at the line how do we know how much of the play calling would change under a new person?

Coach pretty much says when we have the numbers we play to our strength. So 5-6 in the box is a run most of the time unless the situation calls for a pass. The designed run/draws are something else, but the WR screens are based on numbers as well, the fact we block so poorly doesn't change that its the correct call much of the time.

Case in pt the lateral fumble vs BC. Go back and watch the play. Perfect call for that D.. BC had 1 man up, we had perhaps out quickest WR in the game and our biggest WR blocking.. DB jumps the play, WR wiffs the block. That s not a bad call or a bad throw or a bad play design.. Its just poor execution. IF Custis makes the block., Johnson had 4-5 yds to get moving forward with one guy to make miss. Its a 7-8 yd gain at worst.

No doubt we have some calls that we dont check out of like deep balls but I think we miss the correct calls much of the time because of execution issues.. Some simple missed blocks blew up so huge running plays that were primed because of what the D was doing..

Much like drive in the 2nd quarter were we went boom boom boom down the field and Hit Phillips for a simple TD.. That was play design set up by other plays. When it worked it looked great and we saw glimpses of it, we just need better execution more often.

 

[SoBristol]

Sure we need better execution. Part of the bad execution was making the throw laterally, rather than making sure the QB is in position to throw it as a forward pass. So, if incomplete it isn't a live ball.

The other issue is predictability -- too many throws to the sidelines. It lets the DB see what is being setting up and jump. With the combination of Custis & Johnson, how many times did Culpepper throw to medium or deep routes?

 

[upperdeck]

that assumes that is part of the play design.. Lots of times teams throw that ball laterally or backwards. if the block is made it doesnt even matter.

 

[Chip]

that assumes that is part of the play design.. Lots of times teams throw that ball laterally or backwards. if the block is made it doesnt even matter.

So I guess the question is what are the odds the block is made? You factor in the WR, and the fact that you've now shown that exact look about 5 times in the game (run up to the line, go under center, 2 WRs lined up in an "I" on each side". Everyone knew what was most likely coming, so does the defender have an advantage jumping the route and beating the block?

I think the playcalling was limited a bit with Rex in there, so it didn't make me worry about the function one bit. You run what's comfortable, I get it.

The only Dino decision that I completely did not understand was the timeout on 4th and 17, only to punt. 2nd half timeouts are like gold (1st half timeouts are like silver). 5 yard delay of game penalties can be much more easily overcome. I swear every football coach has a heart attack about getting a delay of game. They treat it like a 15 yard loss of down penalty and panic to the timeout way too often.

In this case it was worse because the sack should have made the decision for you.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Some have said we need a new play caller? My question is that this scheme is so predicated on numbers in the box and decisions at the line how do we know how much of the play calling would change under a new person?

Coach pretty much says when we have the numbers we play to our strength. So 5-6 in the box is a run most of the time unless the situation calls for a pass. The designed run/draws are something else, but the WR screens are based on numbers as well, the fact we block so poorly doesn't change that its the correct call much of the time.

Case in pt the lateral fumble vs BC. Go back and watch the play. Perfect call for that D.. BC had 1 man up, we had perhaps out quickest WR in the game and our biggest WR blocking.. DB jumps the play, WR wiffs the block. That s not a bad call or a bad throw or a bad play design.. Its just poor execution. IF Custis makes the block., Johnson had 4-5 yds to get moving forward with one guy to make miss. Its a 7-8 yd gain at worst.

No doubt we have some calls that we dont check out of like deep balls but I think we miss the correct calls much of the time because of execution issues.. Some simple missed blocks blew up so huge running plays that were primed because of what the D was doing..

Much like drive in the 2nd quarter were we went boom boom boom down the field and Hit Phillips for a simple TD.. That was play design set up by other plays. When it worked it looked great and we saw glimpses of it, we just need better execution more often.

It's way more basic than that. It's calling running plays on 2nd and long. It's ignoring the middle of the field. You can see that his play calling improves dramatically when they are in hurry-up mode. Then, they throw to the middle of the field and move the ball.

 

[cuse309]

Was Dino called a bad play caller at Eastern Illinois? Was Dino known for his bad playcalling at Baylor when he was the O.C.? Was he called a bad play caller at BG? Or at those other two stops, was he able to open his playbook, and run some successful plays, because he had the right parts at the right positions? He had comparable talent to his competition. Perhaps some of the head scratching play calls, especially in the red zone, were due to the fact that other than Dungey, we couldn't run the ball in the red zone, and we didn't have a true 6'4" throw it up and go get it wide receiver in the red zone, so it really hampered what he felt comfortable running once all 22 were packed in tight. It was also known when Dino was hired, that he was a gambler. He was known to go for it on 4th quite often, he was known to throw in the onside kick at times. The thing with gambling, is it doesn't always work. When it does, you're a genius, when it doesn't you're a bad play caller.
I find it hard to believe that he just suddenly moved to Syracuse and became a bad play caller. People don't like to hear it, but perhaps there is some truth to the fact that the disparity in talent at certain spots, combined with the youth of the players, combined with players who are not what Babers considers "ideal" for what he wants to run, makes it very difficult to call successful plays.

 

[SoBristol]

that assumes that is part of the play design.. Lots of times teams throw that ball laterally or backwards. if the block is made it doesnt even matter.

Maybe, but the QB needs to see what the defense is primed to do. Dumb to throw laterally when the DB has tight coverage. Too much risk. Teams can throw laterally or backwards -- when the WR has some separation.

 

[TheCusian]

It's way more basic than that. It's calling running plays on 2nd and long. It's ignoring the middle of the field. You can see that his play calling improves dramatically when they are in hurry-up mode. Then, they throw to the middle of the field and move the ball.

Running on 2nd down is fine if you’re going for it on 4th and/or the box is favorable.

Tempo only works if you get first downs and the D doesn’t change looks. It doesn’t work every possession.

 

[Crusty]

Sure we need better execution. Part of the bad execution was making the throw laterally, rather than making sure the QB is in position to throw it as a forward pass. So, if incomplete it isn't a live ball.

The other issue is predictability -- too many throws to the sidelines. It lets the DB see what is being setting up and jump. With the combination of Custis & Johnson, how many times did Culpepper throw to medium or deep routes?

Notre Dame threw screen passes for completion something like 18 completions in-a-row (for a school record) at the last MetLife game. You keep throwing it until they stop you. If the formation gives it to you take it.

 

[upperdeck]

so call the plays for a game and see how often it works, then see how often it worked when it wasnt what you called.. 2 schools of thought.. call what the D doesnt expect, or call what the D cant stop..

2nd and long runs are not a bad thing.. always throwing and 2nd and long doesnt always work.

Go back and watch the last 3 games. you will see plays with 5 in the box and we were running 1TE sets. thats 6 blockers a RB and a QB, thats almost a gimmee 5 yd run and we couldnt do it.. There are plays in there we lost yds in that formation. Even when its 6 in the box you should be good most of the time for positive yds. Our oline has to be able to win those battles.. That forces the D to have 6-7 in the box more often and allows the play calling to be the most flexible.

there is a reason our WR sweep plays struggled to gain 3-5 yds and other teams like LSU and BC gained 20-40. They didnt need to allocate men to the box just to stop the simple runs.

If we really going to run just what might work we would throw 90% of the time. Coach even said that even if you think that , you cant do it or teams will just nickel/Dime D you to death.. You have to have the threat if the run.

losing Dungey was the really think that ended up killing the offense. No threat of running game except for a few draws. teams just pressed up with no deep threat and spread out and took away all the short passes.

As for throws to the middle . Every pass play we have had a middle throw available to it.. the slot guys like Phillips read the play and go where they have the opening. as to why it seldom lead to a middle throw who knows, but we dont run traditional play design where guys go from A to B.. Almost all the plays are multi routed especially ISH and Phillips who saw 75% of the throws anyway. Its not like there werent open most of the time.

 

[Ish88888]

Was Dino called a bad play caller at Eastern Illinois? Was Dino known for his bad playcalling at Baylor when he was the O.C.? Was he called a bad play caller at BG? Or at those other two stops, was he able to open his playbook, and run some successful plays, because he had the right parts at the right positions? He had comparable talent to his competition. Perhaps some of the head scratching play calls, especially in the red zone, were due to the fact that other than Dungey, we couldn't run the ball in the red zone, and we didn't have a true 6'4" throw it up and go get it wide receiver in the red zone, so it really hampered what he felt comfortable running once all 22 were packed in tight. It was also known when Dino was hired, that he was a gambler. He was known to go for it on 4th quite often, he was known to throw in the onside kick at times. The thing with gambling, is it doesn't always work. When it does, you're a genius, when it doesn't you're a bad play caller.
I find it hard to believe that he just suddenly moved to Syracuse and became a bad play caller. People don't like to hear it, but perhaps there is some truth to the fact that the disparity in talent at certain spots, combined with the youth of the players, combined with players who are not what Babers considers "ideal" for what he wants to run, makes it very difficult to call successful plays.

Oh stop, nobody was paying attention at eastern Illinois and bowling green. He and Lewis are in the deep end now and without a doubt they throw waaayyy too many quick outs , a 20-25 yd throw that was nearly picked 50% of the time. This offense NEGLECTS the middle of the field and its inexcusable.

 

[cuse309]

Oh stop, nobody was paying attention at eastern Illinois and bowling green. He and Lewis are in the deep end now and without a doubt they throw waaayyy too many quick outs , a 20-25 yd throw that was nearly picked 50% of the time. This offense NEGLECTS the middle of the field and its inexcusable.

I'm honestly asking a question. Did people at those stops complain about play calling? I don't recall his play calling being an issue at Baylor. Plenty of people, including myself, certainly paid attention to Baylor. When you have the right athletes, and they execute to the tune of 45 points per game, nobody questions the play call. If you gamble and lose, or if you play calls that players don't execute, and you score 27 points per game, people question the play calling.

 

[kcsu]

He was removed from oc once.

 

[TheCusian]

This is a non-issue.

Move on.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Was Dino called a bad play caller at Eastern Illinois? Was Dino known for his bad playcalling at Baylor when he was the O.C.? Was he called a bad play caller at BG? Or at those other two stops, was he able to open his playbook, and run some successful plays, because he had the right parts at the right positions? He had comparable talent to his competition. Perhaps some of the head scratching play calls, especially in the red zone, were due to the fact that other than Dungey, we couldn't run the ball in the red zone, and we didn't have a true 6'4" throw it up and go get it wide receiver in the red zone, so it really hampered what he felt comfortable running once all 22 were packed in tight. It was also known when Dino was hired, that he was a gambler. He was known to go for it on 4th quite often, he was known to throw in the onside kick at times. The thing with gambling, is it doesn't always work. When it does, you're a genius, when it doesn't you're a bad play caller.
I find it hard to believe that he just suddenly moved to Syracuse and became a bad play caller. People don't like to hear it, but perhaps there is some truth to the fact that the disparity in talent at certain spots, combined with the youth of the players, combined with players who are not what Babers considers "ideal" for what he wants to run, makes it very difficult to call successful plays.

Was never OC at Baylor. Just ST coordinator, WR coach, and Recruiting coordinator

 

[orange44]

Oh stop, nobody was paying attention at eastern Illinois and bowling green. He and Lewis are in the deep end now and without a doubt they throw waaayyy too many quick outs , a 20-25 yd throw that was nearly picked 50% of the time. This offense NEGLECTS the middle of the field and its inexcusable.

Agree!

 

[upperdeck]

he isnt calling plays now either.. if he is some of its being down with telepathy

 

[cuse309]

Oh stop, nobody was paying attention at eastern Illinois and bowling green. He and Lewis are in the deep end now and without a doubt they throw waaayyy too many quick outs , a 20-25 yd throw that was nearly picked 50% of the time. This offense NEGLECTS the middle of the field and its inexcusable.

Do you know for a fact that Dino himself ignored the middle, or was Dungey ignoring the middle?

 

[Ish88888]

Do you know for a fact that Dino himself ignored the middle, or was Dungey ignoring the middle?

I dont think ebough routes were run over the middle, between the numbers.

 

[sutomcat]

Sure we need better execution. Part of the bad execution was making the throw laterally, rather than making sure the QB is in position to throw it as a forward pass. So, if incomplete it isn't a live ball.

The other issue is predictability -- too many throws to the sidelines. It lets the DB see what is being setting up and jump. With the combination of Custis & Johnson, how many times did Culpepper throw to medium or deep routes?

I agree with this. Once Dungey went down, defenses reacted by overplaying the short sideline routes and bubble screens that are the bread and butter of this offense, making it difficult to get a completion, much less a gain of more than a couple of yards.

When defenses overplay on short routes like they did for that extended period, you can't just continue to call the same plays and not react. The reason that screen was a horrible call there is because the defense was in tight man coverage, with safety support, expecting the ball to be thrown where it was.

It wasn't a great play by the DB. He did as he was expected to. Our OC made a horrible call and our QB should have audibled out of it and switched to a long throw instead. But our coaches became very conservative with suspect QBs running the offense and our relatively inexperienced QBs either lacked the knowledge or the courage to audible into the right play.

Coach Babers talks about seeing what the defense is giving you and reacting to it accordingly. Except in rare instances, we didn't do that once Dungey went out and our failure to do so destroyed any chance for the offense to be successful.

This was almost as bad a coaching failure as the decision to play BC using a soft zone defense, which allowed an inexperienced crappy QB who threw for 55 yards against UConn the game before to have his career day, completing passes to WRs with no one close by all game long. With our hobbled LBs and no D1 DEs or safeties available to play, we weren't going to beat the Eagles anyway, but still, you should try and put your team in the best position possible. Awful game plans on both sides of the ball did not help things.

 

[shu 49]

I agree with this. Once Dungey went down, defenses reacted by overplaying the short sideline routes and bubble screens that are the bread and butter of this offense, making it difficult to get a completion, much less a gain of more than a couple of yards.

When defenses overplay on short routes like they did for that extended period, you can't just continue to call the same plays and not react. The reason that screen was a horrible call there is because the defense was in tight man coverage, with safety support, expecting the ball to be thrown where it was.

It wasn't a great play by the DB. He did as he was expected to. Our OC made a horrible call and our QB should have audibled out of it and switched to a long throw instead. But our coaches became very conservative with suspect QBs running the offense and our relatively inexperienced QBs either lacked the knowledge or the courage to audible into the right play.

Coach Babers talks about seeing what the defense is giving you and reacting to it accordingly. Except in rare instances, we didn't do that once Dungey went out and our failure to do so destroyed any chance for the offense to be successful.

This was almost as bad a coaching failure as the decision to play BC using a soft zone defense, which allowed an inexperienced crappy QB who threw for 55 yards against UConn the game before to have his career day, completing passes to WRs with no one close by all game long. With our hobbled LBs and no D1 DEs or safeties available to play, we weren't going to beat the Eagles anyway, but still, you should try and put your team in the best position possible. Awful game plans on both sides of the ball did not help things.

Totally agree with u Tomcat. First we shouldn't be conservative. Our zone d against was disgusting and didn't make any sense. Their TE got free release almost all day and we should have played press man as I don't think their receivers were that good. Of course the zone made them look great but not compared to Clemson, Miami, and Florida St. As I have said before, we need a defense that gets in ur face and ratals some cages. If I'm gonna get beat to the toon of 64 points at home vs wake imma do it so that I'm trying to win and not trying to lose. Defense wins games. I coached as position coach in hs and I always tried to get more defense work but to no avail. Offense is pretty but D makes u smile as any former player will say. So to sum this up, we need defensive guys. Tall, big, and fast. No pressure.