Playing starters with 2 fouls in the first half

[Knicks411]

Foul trouble data by coach | The kenpom.com blog

I thought this was an interesting study done by Pomeroy. Knee jerk pulling starters with 2 fouls in the first half has always been a pet peeve of mine. I'm not surprised to see Boeheim rank where he does, because A) I think he knows a hell of a lot about basketball and B) he plays a system which tends to minimize fouls anyway.

 

[br801]

Foul trouble data by coach | The kenpom.com blog

I thought this was an interesting study done by Pomeroy. Knee jerk pulling starters with 2 fouls in the first half has always been a pet peeve of mine. I'm not surprised to see Boeheim rank where he does, because A) I think he knows a hell of a lot about basketball and B) he plays a system which tends to minimize fouls anyway.

Good stuff. JB has always seemed to go against the book on this, so I'm not surprised either. But wow, there are some big names who almost automatically sit their guys for the rest of the half after that second foul.

 

[Scotch]

Foul trouble data by coach | The kenpom.com blog

I thought this was an interesting study done by Pomeroy. Knee jerk pulling starters with 2 fouls in the first half has always been a pet peeve of mine. I'm not surprised to see Boeheim rank where he does, because A) I think he knows a hell of a lot about basketball and B) he plays a system which tends to minimize fouls anyway.

Agreed, the knee jerk reaction by some coaches after 2 fouls ensures that they penalize their team before the rules do. More coaches need to have some cojones and roll the dice like Boeheim does.

 

[br801]

Agreed, the knee jerk reaction by some coaches after 2 fouls ensures that they penalize their team before the rules do. More coaches need to have some cojones and roll the dice like Boeheim does.

I would also think there is great value in knowing who is likely to sit their players until the second half after two fouls, and that someone like JB might use it to strategic advantage.

 

[NineOneSeven]

As Van gundy about it

 

[Brooky03]

I'd love to see KenPom dig a little deeper with this. Comparing a coach's eagerness to sit a 2 foul player and how it relates to minutes played with 4 fouls later in the game could be a worthwhile stat to look into.

 

[OttoMets]

I'm surprised the percentage isn't higher.

There's so little to be lost by leaving fouls on the floor; it baffles me that more coaches don't follow Boeheim's lead. There have been times when we've had short teams and have lost games due to foul trouble, but those times are few and far between. For the most part, Boeheim's playing it safe by leaving a two-foul guy out there to close the half. He knows that he can hide a guy, he knows that the refs will at least subconsciously try not to disqualify the player, and he's often giving us a personnel advantage (assuming the other team is without a two-foul player for the last couple minutes of the half).

As a bonus, this gives viewers an clear idea of which broadcasters have done their homework - Raycom and the like tend to have at least one broadcaster expressing nothing short of astonishment that Boeheim would leave a kid in the game with two fouls.

 

[Knicks411]

I think this, along with the ability to play starters more minutes (because they may not exert as much effort on defense, obviously this also allows you to play starters more minutes), are 2 of the advantages of playing zone.

Doesn't mean there aren't disadvantages, of course.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Beilein is the worst at this. He automatically sits guys with two fouls.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Remember when Etan Thomas fouled out in the first half of a game? Good times.

 

[Knicks411]

Beilein is the worst at this. He automatically sits guys with two fouls.

Ha, did you scroll to the bottom?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Ha, did you scroll to the bottom?

Didn't have to read the article for this, I think it's been drilled in my head from years of watching Beilein coached teams...

There's no doubt it's cost his teams some games over the years... It's almost like he uses two fouls as a punishment to the player, when all it does is punish the team IMO.

 

[Alsacs]

It matters more the time of the 2nd foul and depth you have. I remember Calhoun sitting Okafor in a Final Four game against Duke early with 2 fouls and he got lucky his team rallied late. I said to myself he pulled him way to early and basically ruined the guy's flow the entire game.

Matta sat Sullinger early in our Elite 8 game in 2012. We should have taken advantage but the refs killed us as well.

I would sit big guys more than guards but it would depend on the game score, depth, and time. If I had a star get to 2 fouls in the first 5 minutes of the game I wouldn't sit them 15 minutes but I would take them out for 5-6 minutes and bring them back in. With the shot clock and pace of college basketball you can sit your star players in the first half and just shorten the game.

 

[joct]

Reminds me of a great JB quote. In the 03 Final Four game against Texas, if I remember Carmelo picked up his 3rd with a minute or so to go in the first half. But otherwise was playing unreal. At the halftime interview, the question to JB was something like "with 3 fouls, what are your plans to rest Carmelo Anthony in the second half"? JB: "He's going to get his rest right now, at halftime", and took off.

 

[skurey]

I'm very critical of JB but this is one thing he absolutely nails that not a lot of others do.

 

[JOC44]

Boeheim's genius on this issue is because he recognizes the secondary effects of pulling a guy after his second foul. The media focuses on what happens after the second foul -- will the player get a third foul before halftime. Boeheim focuses on what the policy of sitting a guy with two fouls has on a player after his first foul.

Boeheim made this point once, that he started sitting players after their second foul and what happened was Derrick Coleman got his first foul and then wouldn't guard anyone for the rest of the half because he knew he'd get pulled if he committed another foul. Boeheim said he stopped sitting guys with two fouls then and there because he wanted players with one foul to continue to defend.

 

[cuseincincy]

This is a love/hate thing for me. I love the fact that JB leaves key starters in with 2 fouls. It drives me absolutely bonkers when he leaves said player on the court with a minute or 2 left in the first half. At that point I always fell like "OK, we got away with leaving him now get him out and sit on the ball if you have to the last minute." Oh well, that's why he's the HOF'er. He certainly gets away with it more often than not and I agree that the zone helps a lot.

 

[br801]

This is a love/hate thing for me. I love the fact that JB leaves key starters in with 2 fouls. It drives me absolutely bonkers when he leaves said player on the court with a minute or 2 left in the first half. At that point I always fell like "OK, we got away with leaving him now get him out and sit on the ball if you have to the last minute." Oh well, that's why he's the HOF'er. He certainly gets away with it more often than not and I agree that the zone helps a lot.

JB's contrarian approach to coaching has been a major factor in his success, IMO.

 

[pfister1]

Foul trouble data by coach | The kenpom.com blog

I thought this was an interesting study done by Pomeroy. Knee jerk pulling starters with 2 fouls in the first half has always been a pet peeve of mine. I'm not surprised to see Boeheim rank where he does, because A) I think he knows a hell of a lot about basketball and B) he plays a system which tends to minimize fouls anyway.

I wonder how a team's depth and who it is with the fouls plays into this? Obviously if you have guys that are roughly equivalent of each other that share minutes, why not sit a guy when he gets to two fouls. On the other hand if it is your superstar with two early fouls, sitting him may have a bigger impact. For the guys who got to two fouls and then sat, it would be interesting to know how much additional bench time they saw than they were likely to see based on the coach's normal substitution patterns?

It would be interesting to see if there is a conclusion that can be drawn from the data? Does either philosophy correlate in any way to wins or losses??