Problem recruiting own players?

[Henny & Coke]

Consider two very similar players/prospects:

Jerami Grant:

6-8, 210 lbs, SOPH, 20 years old

13-14 stats: 31.4 MPG, 12.1 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 496% FG

Per ESPN Jeff Goodman article, NBA execs told ESPN he will likely be taken in 15-25 range.


Montrezl Harrell:

6-8, 235 lbs, SOPH, 20 years old

13-14 stats: 29.3 MPG, 14.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 609% FG

Per ESPN Jeff Goodman article, NBA execs told ESPN he would have likely be taken in 15-25 range.


Harrell announced this week he is returning to Louisville for his Junior year, while Grant announced he is entering the NBA Draft.

You could say that Harrell is already a better overall player than Grant is, and also has a more filled out frame/body, thus, you may expect he would be the one leaving college for the NBA this year. Especially when you consider he has already won 1 National Championship in his time at Louisville.

Putting aside things we/the school cannot control in these decisions (like family/money influences), the thing that stuck out to me most in the ESPN article about Harrell returning were the following quotes from Rick Pitino:

"He and Wayne [Blackshear] will be co-captains next season," Pitino said. "I think he wants to come back and be a top-eight pick."

Now, I know that JB is billed as an honest, "straight-shooter" type of guy when it comes to helping kids make these decisions about entering the NBA draft, but, is that resulting in a "problem" for Syracuse? Are we being "out-recruited" when it comes to getting our own players to stay in college?

These quotes from Pitino seem to suggest that he has no problem actively "lobbying" for his players to return to school, going so far as to name them co-captain (in April) and getting them to focus on improving their draft stock. Is JB doing the same?

 

[Garbs]

I don't think this is the response you want but Harrell is making a mistake IMO. I don't think his stock will get any higher.

 

[Henny & Coke]

I don't think this is the response you want but Harrell is making a mistake IMO. I don't think his stock will get any higher.

I actually agree with you.

But more interesting thing to think about is this - Does Rick Pitino?

Would Pitino lobby for a kid to come back to school even if he thought it wasn't right decision for the kid? If so, is that in best interests of the school? Should Pitino be only thinking of the school's interests?

 

[NovaOrange]

I think Grant needs the money more than Harrell does. Do I have any insight to these players bank accounts? No, but I feel kids who rush out think they need to help their families and use the program as stepping stones to do so. I don't have a problem with that approach either since the NCAA makes so much money off the teams. Is Syracuse a great place to be, yes it is but I also understand why Grant and Ennis would want to start getting paid. We as fans think about ways to justify why player X needed to come back to develop and continue to help the program’s success. Which I understand but we need to take the orange color glasses off and say thanks for your time and what you did for the program instead. Sorry for getting off topic

 

[Garbs]

I actually agree with you.

But more interesting thing to think about is this - Does Rick Pitino?

Would Pitino lobby for a kid to come back to school even if he thought it wasn't right decision for the kid? If so, is that in best interests of the school? Should Pitino be only thinking of the school's interests?

I think the short answer is Pitino probably only cares about himself.

 

[wink91wink]

I think Grant needs the money more than Harrell does. Do I have any insight to these players bank accounts? No, but I feel kids who rush out think they need to help their families and use the program as stepping stones to do so. I don't have a problem with that approach either since the NCAA makes so much money off the teams. Is Syracuse a great place to be, yes it is but I also understand why Grant and Ennis would want to start getting paid. We as fans think about ways to justify why player X needed to come back to develop and continue to help the program’s success. Which I understand but we need to take the orange color glasses off and say thanks for your time and what you did for the program instead. Sorry for getting off topic

His dad and uncle were both pro NBA players, he went to a private high school, and has had a full scholarship at syracuse. I don't think the Grant's are hurting for money lol

 

[jimsonjunction]

I don't think there's any such thing as recruiting players to return. They've already been there. They've worked with the coaches and they know exactly what awaits them if they return. It's simply their decision, and some go one way, some go the other way. :noidea:

 

[RF2044]

Consider two very similar players/prospects:

Jerami Grant:

6-8, 210 lbs, SOPH, 20 years old

13-14 stats: 31.4 MPG, 12.1 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 496% FG

Per ESPN Jeff Goodman article, NBA execs told ESPN he will likely be taken in 15-25 range.


Montrezl Harrell:

6-8, 235 lbs, SOPH, 20 years old

13-14 stats: 29.3 MPG, 14.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 609% FG

Per ESPN Jeff Goodman article, NBA execs told ESPN he would have likely be taken in 15-25 range.


Harrell announced this week he is returning to Louisville for his Junior year, while Grant announced he is entering the NBA Draft.

You could say that Harrell is already a better overall player than Grant is, and also has a more filled out frame/body, thus, you may expect he would be the one leaving college for the NBA this year. Especially when you consider he has already won 1 National Championship in his time at Louisville.

Putting aside things we/the school cannot control in these decisions (like family/money influences), the thing that stuck out to me most in the ESPN article about Harrell returning were the following quotes from Rick Pitino:

"He and Wayne [Blackshear] will be co-captains next season," Pitino said. "I think he wants to come back and be a top-eight pick."

Now, I know that JB is billed as an honest, "straight-shooter" type of guy when it comes to helping kids make these decisions about entering the NBA draft, but, is that resulting in a "problem" for Syracuse? Are we being "out-recruited" when it comes to getting our own players to stay in college?

These quotes from Pitino seem to suggest that he has no problem actively "lobbying" for his players to return to school, going so far as to name them co-captain (in April) and getting them to focus on improving their draft stock. Is JB doing the same?

I think that JB did everything to pragmatically communicate to Grant that him jumping to the NBA this year, after the year he had, probably wasn't ideal in terms of where he'd get drafted. Grant and his camp chose to ignore that advice, and take the plunge--which is certainly their right. I'm not sure what additional recruiting JB could have done if the kid has his mind made up to leave, despite what the pre-assessments suggest about where he'll get drafted.

 

[Garbs]

His dad and uncle were both pro NBA players, he went to a private high school, and has had a full scholarship at syracuse. I don't think the Grant's are hurting for money lol

you know what people with money like?























more money

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think that JB did everything to pragmatically communicate to Grant that him jumping to the NBA this year, after the year he had, probably wasn't ideal in terms of where he'd get drafted. Grant and his camp chose to ignore that advice, and take the plunge--which is certainly their right. I'm not sure what additional recruiting JB could have done if the kid has his mind made up to leave, despite what the pre-assessments suggest about where he'll get drafted.

Right. Do you think any of this supposed injury handling had anything to do with it? Fear of more slop on offense and a regressing team? I mean the Grant's aren't stupid and know basketball. I'm obviously playing devil's advocate but it's just strange how Grant could easily become a Top 10-5 pick next year with some improvements and knowing the offense will run through him. If anything his stock may have slipped a bit judging from some of Chad's Ford's latest intel combined with the end of season disaster.

 

[Henny & Coke]

I think that JB did everything to pragmatically communicate to Grant that him jumping to the NBA this year, after the year he had, probably wasn't ideal in terms of where he'd get drafted. Grant and his camp chose to ignore that advice, and take the plunge--which is certainly their right. I'm not sure what additional recruiting JB could have done if the kid has his mind made up to leave, despite what the pre-assessments suggest about where he'll get drafted.

I wonder how involved these conversations get (with JB about going Pro or not)?

Like, since I'm a numbers guy, I'd have had a grad student (or hire an outside financial/consulting firm to) project out scenarios about how much one can earn in he NBA - various scenarios being:

1.) If you go to NBA "little too early" & don't get 2nd contract vs

2.) If you go to NBA "little too late" & miss out/delay starting your career vs

3.) If you go to NBA at "peak" of your skills/lotto projection & get to 2nd contract/stay in league for years vs

4.) If you return to college and suffer an injury, ect

I'd have projected career earnings next to each of these scenarios (also have some real-life examples of each of these scenarios to bring point home), to more clearly illustrate all the different things the kid/family may want to consider before making this decision.

When dealing with people who are looking at bottom line (money), maybe helping them to see more clearly how leaving at peak of their skills & lotto projection may be better off (long-term) financially than leaving simply at peak of lotto projection.

 

[Henny & Coke]

I think the short answer is Pitino probably only cares about himself.

Well, does that hurt him in recruiting high school players then?

I'd imagine part of SU's recruiting pitch is that JB will get you ready for pros asap, and when time comes to make decision on NBA draft, JB will be completely honest with you about his opinions on if you should stay or go.

So if Pitino is more concerned about getting his guys to stick around, even if he truely feels prospect should go pro, then does that work against him in recruiting?

 

[Madbiker]

I think JB made it pretty clear to Ennis that he didn't think he should go this year and that he would have a better chance for a longer, more lucrative career if he stayed in school and developed his game and strength. Ennis chose to leave anyway which is his right. Probably same with Grant though not as outspoken publicly. So I don't know that JB could have done any more. There is no doubt though that Pitino has been very successful lately in getting his stars to return to school after deep tourney runs. I mean how the heck do Russ Smith and Luke Hancock (tourney MOP) stay? How does he get Harrell to stay when everyone has him 15-20? No doubt Rick is a slicker salesman.

 

[RF2044]

I think JB made it pretty clear to Ennis that he didn't think he should go this year and that he would have a better chance for a longer, more lucrative career if he stayed in school and developed his game and strength. Ennis chose to leave anyway which is his right. Probably same with Grant though not as outspoken publicly. So I don't know that JB could have done any more. There is no doubt though that Pitino has been very successful lately in getting his stars to return to school after deep tourney runs. I mean how the heck do Russ Smith and Luke Hancock (tourney MOP) stay? How does he get Harrell to stay when everyone has him 15-20? No doubt Rick is a slicker salesman.

Well, in fairness, neither Russ Smith nor Luke Hancock were highly rated NBA prospects, so they had nothing to lose by returning--and doing so gave them the opportunity to chase for a second conesecutive NC.

Harrell is a different matter, considering that he is a legitimate first rounder / lottery possibility.

 

[moqui]

At the end of everything - regardless of what all the experts, scouts and advisors tell you about your readiness, the last place you have to check in is with yourself. Are you 100% ready for the challenge of competing against the very best in the world? If you don't believe in yourself, you are going to hesitate, even if you are physically ready.

I'm not trying to paint a picture of Montrezl Harrel as a weak minded kid wracked with self- doubt; I of course have no idea what his thought process is. But generally speaking, if a kid is chomping at the bit to test himself against the best at the next level, no coach could sell him on staying. But if he does have any doubts, then there is an opening.

 

[GFTakedown]

After the NC in 2003, there was talk of Warrick leaving also. Did his draft stock change from 2003 to 2005? His point production increased but his rebounding remained the same. The 2003 NBA Draft was stronger than the 2005 NBA Draft so he likely wouldn't have been drafted higher. Staying in longer could have

Warrick
Freshman: 2001-2002 (17.4 min 6.1 ppg 4.8 rpg)
Soph: 2002-2003 (32.7 min 14.8 ppg 8.5 rpg)
Junior: 2003- 2004 (37.3 min 19.8 ppg 8.5 rpg)
Senior: 2004-2005 (37.5 min 21.4 ppg 8.6 rpg)

Grant
Freshman: 2012-2013 (14.3 min 3.9 ppg 3.0 rpg)
Soph: 2013-2014 (31.4 min 12.1 ppg 6.8 rpg)

This draft is considered top heavy and not that strong. As we all know, the NBA drafts on potential and with Grant's pedigree that looks promising for a team. With Harrell coming back to college, Grant's stock went up higher. I have no problem with the decision just as long as he takes advantage of the workouts and shows off what he can do. What concerns me is that he sat out after having back issues towards the end. The NBA schedule is three times as many games as college. If he was nursing a back problem towards the end then he will only be 1/3 of the way through the season. He should be rehabbing that back to make it stronger now before the workouts start. It will be interesting to find out what happens at his physical for the draft.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Any kid who gets the chance to be drafted in the 1st Round of the best basketball League in the world, will more often than not make the jump. If I was "drafted" by a company in my field my sophomore/junior year and promised loads of money, then ready-or-not, I'd jump too...as would most people. All fandom aside, I find it stupefying why some folks have a problem dealing w/ that basic premise.