Question about the two FT's for the technical that CJ missed.

[CusefanATL]

all things being equal (and the FT % was ) 99% of coaches always defer to the upperclassmen.

My guess would be 99% of the coaches always defer to the guard, but maybe that's just me.

 

[CusefanATL]

If CJ makes both (or even one) free throws, does this thread exist?

I think not. In which case it's pretty meaningless revisionism.

Class dismissed.

I think it does... I certainly jumped up right away and screamed What are you doing. If i was near a comp i would have started a thread.

And not only did he miss both - gbinje turned the ball over 5 seconds into the free possession. That was almost a huge deal towards the end of the game.

It all worked out in the end - but it doesnt mean you dont go back to the drawing board to fix issues.

 

[Rocco]

I get the whole senior argument, but I'd put a guy at the line who has ice in veins and is the best on the team in clutch situations: Tyler Ennis.

 

[Orangeyes]

Silent G had just sunk two-in-a-row 39 seconds earlier, might not be a bad idea to go with the hot hand in those circumstances.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I think it does... I certainly jumped up right away and screamed What are you doing. If i was near a comp i would have started a thread.

And not only did he miss both - gbinje turned the ball over 5 seconds into the free possession. That was almost a huge deal towards the end of the game.

It all worked out in the end - but it doesnt mean you dont go back to the drawing board to fix issues.

Fix issues? What issue, that CJ missed some foul shots? It happens. Why would you be screaming at your set? You are giving the impression that Ennis should defintely be shooting those, I don't get it. CJ and Ennis are basically the same percentage, and as someone pointed out, CJ is actually quite better at the dome. CJ is the senior who has been there before.

And what does Gbinje turning the ball over have to do with CJ having missed the foul shots? They seem like indendent events to me.

 

[NineOneSeven]

If anyone was watching the Louisville game, Ollie got T'd up twice and Blackshear went to the line for the first T. He missed both, and then Russ was chosen for the next two.

Moral- sometimes guys miss FT's.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I get the whole senior argument, but I'd put a guy at the line who has ice in veins and is the best on the team in clutch situations: Tyler Ennis.

What makes this a clutch situatiion? It was in the first half when SU had the lead. And as it turned out, had little to do with the outcome of the game.

Secondly, why would you think Ennis would respond better to pressure than CJ? CJ has been through a lot more of the college level games. Ennis has hit some late FT's in some games, but Ennis has also had some growing pains in terms of dealing with pressure as it mounts as evidenced by his somewhat less than average performances at VT and BC.

 

[upperdeck]

you dont have to shoot both free throws, but i dont recall many coaches changing after someone misses the first

 

[jekelish]

Doesn't seem like it lately. I don't like his form. He doesn't come to a stop at the top of his FT, like most top FT shooters. Too many moving parts, and he gets out of sync, like every FT is different from the rest. He needs to slow down, and get everything moving in a line toward the release and arc of his shot. IMO, he needs to separate his jump shot form from his FT form more.

I agree, his mechanics looked a little wonky. He looked like he was short arming it a little to me, honestly.

 

[Rocco]

What makes this a clutch situatiion? It was in the first half when SU had the lead. And as it turned out, had little to do with the outcome of the game.

Secondly, why would you think Ennis would respond better to pressure than CJ? CJ has been through a lot more of the college level games. Ennis has hit some late FT's in some games, but Ennis has also had some growing pains in terms of dealing with pressure as it mounts as evidenced by his somewhat less than average performances at VT and BC.

Wasn't really talking about that situation. Talking about clutch situations in general. Against tight games with Minnesota, Cal, St John's and Pitt, Ennis was clutch from the line. Fair was 3-7 against St John's and 2-6 against Pitt.

Growing pains against VT and BC? Against VT, he had 13 points and 7 assists. He shot 5-8 from the field, 3-6 from 3. Had a steal and only committed two turnovers. Against BC, he had 12 points, 5 assists, 6 steals, 3 rebounds and was 2-4 from 3 while only committing 1 turnover.

I wouldn't call those growing pains.

I'd still have Ennis shooting FT's in a clutch situation. The kid is years beyond his age. I get that CJ is "seasoned", but that doesn't hide the fact that Ennis is a cool cucumber, more so than CJ IMO.

 

[CusefanATL]

Fix issues? What issue, that CJ missed some foul shots? It happens. Why would you be screaming at your set? You are giving the impression that Ennis should defintely be shooting those, I don't get it. CJ and Ennis are basically the same percentage, and as someone pointed out, CJ is actually quite better at the dome. CJ is the senior who has been there before.

And what does Gbinje turning the ball over have to do with CJ having missed the foul shots? They seem like indendent events to me.

um. of course i was giving the impression that Ennis should be shooting those... Why wouldnt I be?

When we need FT's to be hit, I'll take Ennis over Fair anyday, everyday. I dont care what the percentages say about the 41 ft's that Ennis took in the dome prior to Sat, probably 33 of them against cupcakes. That's a VERY EASY decision IMHO.

Am I in lala land?

And in regards to Gbinije - It was seperate of the FT's but the same lost possession that equaled 0 free points out of a possible 5. The chances of getting 0/5 points when getting the choice at who to put at the ft line for 2 of them is very close to zero.

 

[CusefanATL]

What makes this a clutch situatiion? It was in the first half when SU had the lead. And as it turned out, had little to do with the outcome of the game.

Secondly, why would you think Ennis would respond better to pressure than CJ? CJ has been through a lot more of the college level games. Ennis has hit some late FT's in some games, but Ennis has also had some growing pains in terms of dealing with pressure as it mounts as evidenced by his somewhat less than average performances at VT and BC.

technicals are more "clutch" fts. Even if in the 1st half. Its you and no one else at the line. You are very alone. Ive taken technicals in front of 25 people and they are quite a bit different than regular FT's.

And as the game turned out - we really could have used those points. We arent good enough offensively to ever take points for granted against real teams.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Wasn't really talking about that situation. Talking about clutch situations in general. Against tight games with Minnesota, Cal, St John's and Pitt, Ennis was clutch from the line. Fair was 3-7 against St John's and 2-6 against Pitt.

Growing pains against VT and BC? Against VT, he had 13 points and 7 assists. He shot 5-8 from the field, 3-6 from 3. Had a steal and only committed two turnovers. Against BC, he had 12 points, 5 assists, 6 steals, 3 rebounds and was 2-4 from 3 while only committing 1 turnover.

I wouldn't call those growing pains.

I'd still have Ennis shooting FT's in a clutch situation. The kid is years beyond his age. I get that CJ is "seasoned", but that doesn't hide the fact that Ennis is a cool cucumber, more so than CJ IMO.

Your definition of clutch seems very subjective. No BET games or NCAAT games? CJ has a history that goes deeper than just this year, that is to CJ's credit.

For Ennis and the two away games I was talking about the eye test. Looked like he had sub-par games to me. And while the stats you quoted do sound good, you did not evaluate them in regards to his average. Is Tyler really averaging a 1.5 turnovers a game? Or did he have below average games?

You may want Ennis shooting FTs in a clutch situation but I doubt JB will do that. And I will have no problems with JB's decision. I like that he rewards the senior, program guy. If Ennis sticks around his time will come.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Both he and Ennis shoot about the same from the FT line. One is a Senior and one is a Freshman. So why was I surprised that Ennis wasn't taking the shots. Was I the only one?

1) Sr. 2) Good FT shooter. 3) Hoping to get his stroke going by making a couple FTs.

 

[Delmar]

Silent G had just sunk two-in-a-row 39 seconds earlier, might not be a bad idea to go with the hot hand in those circumstances.

Cooney was on the bench, and Silent G looks like a better free throw shooter than anyone else on the floor. He would have been my choice. (the position is called 'shooting guard') We lost some momentum there with the ensuing turn over.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

um. of course i was giving the impression that Ennis should be shooting those... Why wouldnt I be?

When we need FT's to be hit, I'll take Ennis over Fair anyday, everyday. I dont care what the percentages say about the 41 ft's that Ennis took in the dome prior to Sat, probably 33 of them against cupcakes. That's a VERY EASY decision IMHO.

Am I in lala land?

And in regards to Gbinije - It was seperate of the FT's but the same lost possession that equaled 0 free points out of a possible 5. The chances of getting 0/5 points when getting the choice at who to put at the ft line for 2 of them is very close to zero.

Let me list some reasons you wouldn't scream for Ennis to take the FT's over CJ:
1. CJ has a better FT% at the dome
2. CJ has played in these games before
3. CJ is the upperclassman who has paid his dues
4. CJ is in the running for multiple honors, both ACC and Nationally - can use the points.

And if 33/41 of Ennis' FTs are against cupcakes, that means he has only taken 8 non-cupcake FTs. You are making what you call a "VERY EASY" decision based on 8 FTs?

 

[Rocco]

Your definition of clutch seems very subjective. No BET games or NCAAT games? CJ has a history that goes deeper than just this year, that is to CJ's credit.

For Ennis and the two away games I was talking about the eye test. Looked like he had sub-par games to me. And while the stats you quoted do sound good, you did not evaluate them in regards to his average. Is Tyler really averaging a 1.5 turnovers a game? Or did he have below average games?

You may want Ennis shooting FTs in a clutch situation but I doubt JB will do that. And I will have no problems with JB's decision. I like that he rewards the senior, program guy. If Ennis sticks around his time will come.

Wasn't really talking about that situation. Talking about clutch situations in general. Against tight games with Minnesota, Cal, St John's and Pitt, Ennis was clutch from the line. Fair was 3-7 against St John's and 2-6 against Pitt.
Growing pains against VT and BC? Against VT, he had 13 points and 7 assists. He shot 5-8 from the field, 3-6 from 3. Had a steal and only committed two turnovers. Against BC, he had 12 points, 5 assists, 6 steals, 3 rebounds and was 2-4 from 3 while only committing 1 turnover.
I wouldn't call those growing pains.
I'd still have Ennis shooting FT's in a clutch situation. The kid is years beyond his age. I get that CJ is "seasoned", but that doesn't hide the fact that Ennis is a cool cucumber, more so than CJ IMO.

Subjective? When comparing CJ and Tyler, let's use the same sample size: this year. Pointless to me to use things in the past because there is an "n/a" for Tyler. Based of what we've seen so far this year makes more sense to me.

Of the numbers I posted above, here are Tyler's season averages and whether those 2 games (BC, VT) were above or below them:

11.9 points - ABOVE (12.5)
5.5 assists - ABOVE (6)
2.7 steals - ABOVE (3.5)
43% fg - ABOVE (47.3%)
40% 3pt - ABOVE (50%)
1.3 turnovers committed - BELOW (1)
4.13 ast/TO ratio - ABOVE (6)

Where you going with this? Digging yourself in a hole with the stats. Statistically, he was better in those 2 games than what he's averaging in every major category. He played very good in both of the those games and just because he didn't pass your "eye test" doesn't mean anything except for your own good.

Tyler is more clutch than CJ IMO through 18 games. It's really not even that close in my eyes either. Rewarding the senior is a great "feel-good" touch by JB, but all that matters is that those FTs are made when they count the most.

 

[CusefanATL]

Let me list some reasons you wouldn't scream for Ennis to take the FT's over CJ:
1. CJ has a better FT% at the dome
2. CJ has played in these games before
3. CJ is the upperclassman who has paid his dues
4. CJ is in the running for multiple honors, both ACC and Nationally - can use the points.

And if 33/41 of Ennis' FTs are against cupcakes, that means he has only taken 8 non-cupcake FTs. You are making what you call a "VERY EASY" decision based on 8 FTs?

The VERY EASY decision is based on how they look shooting FT's. And, I guess I just trust Ennis more.

but honestly, at this point its not a big deal either way. We'll just go ahead to agree to disagree and move on.

go cuse.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Subjective? When comparing CJ and Tyler, let's use the same sample size: this year. Pointless to me to use things in the past because there is an "n/a" for Tyler. Based of what we've seen so far this year makes more sense to me.

Tyler is more clutch than CJ IMO through 18 games. It's really not even that close in my eyes either. Rewarding the senior is a great "feel-good" touch by JB, but all that matters is that those FTs are made when they count the most.

Pointless to use things in the past? I'm glad JB doesn't prescibe to that. The past matters. And if Tyler has an "n/a" then he is at a distinct disadvantage to someone who has a good past, IMO.

Rewarding the senior is a great "feel-good" touch by JB. I hope he doesn't abandon it because of one mishap. How do you know when the FTs are going to count the most? The Pitt technicals didn't seem to make a big impact on the outcome.

 

[CusefanATL]

Pointless to use things in the past? I'm glad JB doesn't prescibe to that. The past matters. And if Tyler has an "n/a" then he is at a distinct disadvantage to someone who has a good past, IMO.

Rewarding the senior is a great "feel-good" touch by JB. I hope he doesn't abandon it because of one mishap. How do you know when the FTs are going to count the most? The Pitt technicals didn't seem to make a big impact on the outcome.

dude... i hope he never thinks of doing a "feel good" moment in the middle of a 4 point ball game against a rival or any other decent team ever again. CJ Fair has had enough feel good moments in his career to last a lifetime. This is by no means an insult to his season or career. But we need every single point we can get for the rest of the season.

The Pitt technicals didnt seem to make a big impact on the game? :bat::bang::blah::crazy::rolling:

Just because we ultimately won, doesnt mean that the missed opportunity wasnt a huge IMPACT.

 

[Rocco]

Pointless to use things in the past? I'm glad JB doesn't prescibe to that. The past matters. And if Tyler has an "n/a" then he is at a distinct disadvantage to someone who has a good past, IMO.

Rewarding the senior is a great "feel-good" touch by JB. I hope he doesn't abandon it because of one mishap. How do you know when the FTs are going to count the most? The Pitt technicals didn't seem to make a big impact on the outcome.

No, but they easily could have counted... you can't tell either. Tyler is not at a distinct disadvantage IMO, he's already shown he can perform at a high level with the game on his shoulders this year. In regards to CJ, it's been more than one mishap this year too. His shot even looks awkward and rushed at times when he's at the line. I think others on here might agree with me.

What about the stats and Tyler's "below-average" play you referenced during the BC and VT games? You didn't respond to those.

I'm usually on your side, but I just respectfully disagree with your opinion on this matter. For everyone's sake, let's just hope that whoever has to hit the clutch FTs down the stretch... does.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

No, but they easily could have counted... you can't tell either. Tyler is not at a distinct disadvantage IMO, he's already shown he can perform at a high level with the game on his shoulders this year. In regards to CJ, it's been more than one mishap this year too. His shot even looks awkward and rushed at times when he's at the line. I think others on here might agree with me.

What about the stats and Tyler's "below-average" play you referenced during the BC and VT games? You didn't respond to those.

I'm usually on your side, but I just respectfully disagree with your opinion on this matter. For everyone's sake, let's just hope that whoever has to hit the clutch FTs down the stretch... does.

That's okay, we can respectfully disagree. I like when JB rewards the senior, program players.

I also don't think those technicals counted as clutch FTs. First half stuff. All points throughout the game could have counted. I think JB is testing/grooming Tyler for the clutch shots. Tyler's hitting the one-and-one with under 10 seconds left to ice the Miami game will probably stick with JB in the next similar situation.

And yes, let's hope whoever is in that situation comes through.