RIP 2-3 zone?

[CorduroyG]

or is the zone gonna be like michael myers, its never gonna go away.

part of the reason i preferred an outside hire, if autry sticks to the zone i dont think i can watch. i hated the zone even when teams couldnt shoot! (except for 2013, zone was a thing of beauty that year)

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I wouldn't mind keeping the zone if we pair it with a 3/4 quart press.

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

I wouldn't mind keeping the zone if we pair it with a 3/4 quart press.

The system didnt work any more under the greatest ever to coach it. God no. Save if for unique situations but do mostly man

 

[CorduroyG]

I wouldn't mind keeping the zone if we pair it with a 3/4 quart press.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Brooky03]

Nobody liked watching the zone during the downturn. But I certainly enjoyed it when we were good. It was nice to turn on a game and know in the first 5 minutes it was all over for the opponent because they were overwhelmed and had no answers, even with shooters on the floor. We obviously haven't had much of that in recent years.

btw, what are people's opinions of the pack line (zone) defense? Bennett seems to do well with it. That's more zone than man.

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

Nobody liked watching the zone during the downturn. But I certainly enjoyed it when we were good. It was nice to turn on a game and know in the first 5 minutes it was all over for the opponent because they were overwhelmed at had no answers, even with shooters on the floor. We obviously haven't had much of that in recent years.

btw, what are people's opinions of the pack line (zone) defense? Bennett seems to do well with it. That's more zone than man.

Part of the reason FOR the downturn is become the game has changed and there are too many shooters to rely on it exclusively. That will only become more pronounced

 

[Brooky03]

Part of the reason FOR the downturn is become the game has changed and there are too many shooters to rely on it exclusively. That will only become more pronounced

The game, per analytics, has changed only a little since 2010 and 2014. The zone didn't stop working because teams put more shooters on the floor. It stopped working because our recruiting classes stopped landing in the top 25.

 

[Orangezoo]

Nobody liked watching the zone during the downturn. But I certainly enjoyed it when we were good. It was nice to turn on a game and know in the first 5 minutes it was all over for the opponent because they were overwhelmed and had no answers, even with shooters on the floor. We obviously haven't had much of that in recent years.

btw, what are people's opinions of the pack line (zone) defense? Bennett seems to do well with it. That's more zone than man.

Not really a zone- its a sagging mtm that guards the ball with one player. Zone and pack line have some outcomes in common, but where the zone looks to create 2v1 in favor of the defense the pack line strives to maintain every player is guarded closely when they have the ball and not pass off players as much thus creating multiple rotations.

Pack Line Defense - The Complete Guide

The Pack Line defense is a 'team' defense and can be implemented on any level. From youth basketball all the way to the NBA. 2,500+ word coaching guide.

www.basketballforcoaches.com

 

[Orangezoo]

The game, per analytics, has changed only a little since 2010 and 2014. The zone didn't stop working because teams put more shooters on the floor. It stopped working because our recruiting classes stopped landing in the top 25.

This is false. All the numbers have shown this is false. You just try and ignore and spin it. Every thread it's funny you make this claim as though the other 40 where the numbers and detailed breakdowns that show the opposite never existed.

Amusing..

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

The game, per analytics, has changed very little since 2010 and 2014. The zone didn't stop working because teams put more shooters on the floor. It stopped working because our recruiting classes stopped landing in the top 25.

Even guys like Devo have acknowledged the zone is absolutely less effective vs outside shooters than it was years ago because of how much farther kids are shooting from. But even beyond that, Is it possible that some recruits didnt want to come to Cuse because of the scheme? I dont think elite kids in HS want to run the schemes we have been running. Either way, time to evolve and modernize.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Nobody liked watching the zone during the downturn. But I certainly enjoyed it when we were good. It was nice to turn on a game and know in the first 5 minutes it was all over for the opponent because they were overwhelmed and had no answers, even with shooters on the floor. We obviously haven't had much of that in recent years.

btw, what are people's opinions of the pack line (zone) defense? Bennett seems to do well with it. That's more zone than man.

The pack line applies ball pressure with 4 guys sagging off shooters while hedging on every ball screen. The zone does not do that. They aren't that similar a defense as you state.

 

[Brooky03]

Even guys like Devo have acknowledged the zone is absolutely less effective vs outside shooters than it was years ago because of how much farther kids are shooting from. But even beyond that, Is it possible that some recruits didnt want to come to Cuse because of the scheme? I dont think elite kids in HS want to run the schemes we have been running. Either way, time to evolve and modernize.

I doubt zone defense bothers recruits or factors much into their decisions. Who knows. It hasn’t tended to hurt our players’ draft prospects, at least. But 18 year olds might pick a destination based on how big the tv in their room is or some other random thing.

 

[newmexicuse]

I have been very anti-Zone (only) for a long time, but the bottom line for me is that we should have multiple defenses that should be frequently switched up. And I do not count a press that falls back into the standard Zone as a real defense variation.

Yes, everybody can now figure out the Zone if it is all they see, but if teams never knew each trip down the court if they would be seeing a man or a Zone, that to me is the answer.

 

[Orangezoo]

Even guys like Devo have acknowledged the zone is absolutely less effective vs outside shooters than it was years ago because of how much farther kids are shooting from. But even beyond that, Is it possible that some recruits didnt want to come to Cuse because of the scheme? I dont think elite kids in HS want to run the schemes we have been running. Either way, time to evolve and modernize.

If you watch enough AAU games you can see just how often most kids are playing mtm or a press into mtm. Zone is played at all levels in small quantities. Selling having to play a certain defense 75 pct of the time when coming in and (if you are able to) going out to the next level where you play it far less isn't exactly the thing I would want to hear.

 

[sabach]

or is the zone gonna be like michael myers, its never gonna go away.

part of the reason i preferred an outside hire, if autry sticks to the zone i dont think i can watch. i hated the zone even when teams couldnt shoot! (except for 2013, zone was a thing of beauty that year)

I hear what you are saying and I don't really disagree as I don't agree with only playing one defense. But I will never forget Kelvin Sampson having no idea what he was doing against the 2-3 in the 2003 Albany Regional Final. He knew it, we knew it and his players knew it. Game over.

 

[Orangezoo]

I hear what you are saying and I don't really disagree as I don't agree with only playing one defense. But I will never forget Kelvin Sampson having no idea what he was doing against the 2-3 in the 2003 Albany Regional Final. He knew it, we knew it and his players knew it. Game over.

Sadly the days of where kids and teams want to play in the arc most of the game are over. Chicks dig the 3ball now.

 

[Sbucketball]

or is the zone gonna be like michael myers, its never gonna go away.

part of the reason i preferred an outside hire, if autry sticks to the zone i dont think i can watch. i hated the zone even when teams couldnt shoot! (except for 2013, zone was a thing of beauty that year)

Hopefully it's in our back pocket to play when teams aren't shooting well. Switch into the zone at certain points in a game and make them shoot, and if they splash then go back to man. Probably would need long-term players to be able to pull that off though, which is tough to do now.

 

[Orangezoo]

Hopefully it's in our back pocket to play when teams aren't shooting well. Switch into the zone at certain points in a game and make them shoot, and if they splash then go back to man. Probably would need long-term players to be able to pull that off though, which is tough to do now.

Absolutely. It should be in the toolbox.

 

[xc84]

If you watch enough AAU games you can see just how often most kids are playing mtm or a press into mtm. Zone is played at all levels in small quantities. Selling having to play a certain defense 75 pct of the time when coming in and (if you are able to) going out to the next level where you play it far less isn't exactly the thing I would want to hear.

If you watch AAU games you see most kids don't like defense.

 

[CardiacCuse]

This is false. All the numbers have shown this is false. You just try and ignore and spin it. Every thread it's funny you make this claim as though the other 40 where the numbers and detailed breakdowns that show the opposite never existed.

Amusing..

yeah i mean...opponents that supposedly couldnt hit the 3 were mostly deadeyes against it this season...it wasnt just random bad luck

 

[Brooky03]

This is false. All the numbers have shown this is false. You just try and ignore and spin it. Every thread it's funny you make this claim as though the other 40 where the numbers and detailed breakdowns that show the opposite never existed.

Amusing..

Teams would be shooting more 3’s, making more 3’s, and putting more shooters on the court by some significant margin if there was this drastic shift in style. They don’t relative to 2014 according to the concrete stats that we can both go lookup right now.

Numbers are numbers

 

[721Comstock]

Absolutely. It should be in the toolbox.

Agreed.

But it shouldn’t be the ONLY tool in the box.

That’s like a master carpenter opening his toolbox. and the only tool inside is a hammer.

Pitino managed to teach his players zone & man & 3/4 court press and several other variations.
And could mix them up when/as needed.

And NO - this is in no way shilling for Rick the Quick to have come (back) to Cuse, but I did always like how he switched things up, played a LOT of guys, and ran actual offensive sets.

 

[Orangezoo]

Agreed.

But it shouldn’t be the ONLY tool in the box.

That’s like a master carpenter opening his toolbox. and the only tool inside is a hammer.

Pitino managed to teach his players zone & man & 3/4 court press and several other variations.
And could mix them up when/as needed.

And NO - this is in no way shilling for Rick the Quick to have come (back) to Cuse, but I did always like how he switched things up, played a LOT of guys, and ran actual offensive sets.

Yep.. it's a great tool, but not to be used excessively.

 

[Orangezoo]

Teams would be shooting more 3’s, making more 3’s, and putting more shooters on the court by some significant margin if there was this drastic shift in style. They don’t relative to 2014 according to the concrete stats that we can both go lookup right now.

Numbers are numbers

You looked at one stat. I shared many more that made the point clear in addition to the detailed analysis from 3 man weave. I get you are taking the Holiday Inn approach.

Teams absolutely are taking and making more including relying on the 3pt shot at a much larger pct of their offense. All of this was laid out. You chose to go with a generic average and say look I'm right! As I said before that is not how analytics work- not even close.

Also even that one stat you shared- because of how you are utilizing it- it appears you don't understand that even that figure is significant. So either you don't grasp it( in reference to how you have debated it) or you do and just refuse to try and carry the narrative you stand alone with as a college hoops fan.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The game, per analytics, has changed only a little since 2010 and 2014. The zone didn't stop working because teams put more shooters on the floor. It stopped working because our recruiting classes stopped landing in the top 25.

You’re still wrong about this.