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Message: [QUOTE="SWC75, post: 1810946, member: 289"] JEFF BAGWELL and MIKE PIAZZA were both victims of rumors, although justice has finally been served in Piazza’s case. They were both born in 1968 and both became hitting stars in the early 90’s and had strong, if injury-plagued careers. Both of them were held out of the Hall of Fame for several years based upon an unproven suspicion that they used steroids. Neither man ever tested positive or acknowledged use of banned substances in the Mitchell report or was among those accused by Jose Canseco of using the stuff. Bagwell did admit to using androstenedione (commonly referred to as "andro") in 1998, as did Mark McGwire but it was not a banned substance at that time. Piazza, in his autobiography, admitted the same thing. I’ve heard that someone claimed to have seen pimples on Piazza’s back at some point in his career and that’s supposed to be a symptom of steroid use. Also a book by Roger Clemens claimed that Piazza had admitted off the record to a reporter that he used steroids but this reporter has not come forward to identify himself. Here’s an article debunking some of the mythology about Piazza: [URL="http://www.amazinavenue.com/2014/1/9/5290422/mets-mike-piazza-steroids-hall-of-fame-backne"]Debunking the Mike Piazza steroid myth[/URL] Both were awesome hitters. Bagwell was the unanimous choice for NL MVP in the strike-shortened year of 1994, when he hit .368 with 39 homers, 116 RBIs and 104 runs scored in 110 games. Those would be his numbers had there been no strike as he broke his hand when hit by a pitch just before the strike. But if he’d played 162 those numbers would have been .368-57-171-153, one of the greatest seasons in baseball history, the sort of numbers you’d expect from Babe Ruth or maybe Jimmie Foxx. The fact that Bagwell’s best prior year was 1993 when he hit .320-20-88-76 gave rise to the steroid rumors but that was the year all of baseball had a sudden surge in batting to record levels. It was Jeff’s greatest season but far from his only great season. He hit .315-31-120-11 in 1996, then slumped to .286 but with 43 homers and 31 steals, producing 135 RBIs in 1997. In 1999-2000 he hit a total of 89 home runs with 258 RBIs and an incredible 295 runs scored, the most in two seasons in the National league since the days of Sliding Billy Hamilton in the 19th century. He walked an enormous number of times, as many as 149 times in a season. He was a 30-30 man that one season and won a Gold Glove in 1994. Finally, injuries, especially to his shoulder, made it harder and harder to swing the bat. After hitting .300 six times in eight years, he never did so in his last five seasons. But he still hit for power- hitting 39 homers in 2001 and 2003 and drove in runs. He finally had to give up the game 39 games into the 2005 season. I remember two things about Bagwell. The Astros had several players put up big numbers while he was in their line-up” Craig Biggio, Moises Alou, Derek Bell, Carl Everett, Richard Hilgado, Lance Berkman, Morgan Ensberg, Jeff Kent, Carlos Beltran. But in every Astros game I ever watched when he was there, the guy the other team was pitching around was Bagwell. His presence in the line-up set the other guys up for big numbers, not the other way around. Then there was his odd stance and his violent swing. He seemed to be almost sitting in an invisible chair with his fanny out and his torso rigidly straight. He would swing so hard he resembled a lumberjack trying to fell a tree with one blow of an axe. I looked at Mark McGwire and was amazed at how smoothly he swung- he was just trying to intersect with the ball. With Bagwell, he always seemed to be trying to muscle the ball over the fence. It’s not surprising that he hurt himself, developing bone spurs and arthritis in his shoulder that limited his ability to throw the ball or swing a bat. Piazza was a 62nd round draft choice, (which, again, led to steroid suspicions), but became an instant star when he debuted for the Dodgers in 1993, hitting .318 with 35 homers and 112 RBIs. He hit .300 or better his first ten seasons in a row, with a high of .362 with 40 homers and 124 RBIs in 1997. He was acknowledged as the greatest hitting catcher in major league history, (we’ll always wonder what Josh Gibson might have done). When the Mets traded for him in 1998, he brought instant gravitas to a team that had been struggling for years. It means a lot to a team to have the best player on the field on their side and the Mets usually did. Even when the other side had a Bagwell or a Bonds, well, we had our superstar, too. He was not a good defensive catcher, although he handled pitchers well. He was terrible at blocking balls or throwing runners out. He probably should have been shifted to 1st base early in his career, even before he became a big leaguer. It could have added 5 years to his career or his prime. The Mets tried to do it as the injuries catchers are always subject to began to catch up with Mike but his heart wasn’t in it. In his mind he was a catcher and playing first base was a demotion and a foreign environment. Eventually the Mets parted ways with Mike and he began the vagabond journey of a former star late in his career. But he came back to join Tom Seaver, the only Mets player of similar stature, to throw and catch the last pitch at Shea Stadium in 2008 and to do the same with the first pitch at Citi Field in 2009. Bill Jenkinson loves Piazza. He rats him #22 among his all-time sluggers, primarily because he overcame the physical demands of his position to be a great power hitter. He has a 500 footer- in Colorado in 1997, 504 feet to the concourse atop the bleachers in left field. He also has a 485 footer in Shea off his future teammate Toml Glavine in 1998. In LA his longest was 478 feet through the dead air of Dodger Stadium in 1997, one that “soared onto the pavilion roof in left center”. Jenkinson says that Mike “belted so many 470-480 footers at Flushing that he supplanted Dave Kingman and Darryl Strawberry as the all-time distance king at that ballpark.” I’m not sure about that, (Strawberry had some awesome shots and Kingman, when he connected was second to nobody). But Jenkinson closes with: Whenever the question of Major League Baseball’s greatest offensive catcher is raised, there can only be one answer.” Bill James agrees, writing in 2000: “Too early to rate him with any confidence but probably the best hitting catcher ever to play the game.” Even so, Bill rates Mike as the 5th best catcher ever, behind Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench, Roy Campanella and Mickey Cochrane. Both basically ignore Jeff Bagwell. Jenkinson mentions him once, to say that he’s the 71st best slugger of all time. James does rate Bagwell as the fourth best first baseman ever but his only comment is “Pass”, with no explanation. Piazza got 57.8% of the Hall of Fame ballots in his first try in 2013, despite the statement of former opponent and teammate Glavine that he was “a first-ballot Hall of Famer, certainly the best hitting catcher of our era and arguably the best hitting catcher of all time". The next year he got 62.2%, the 69.9% in 2015, still short of the 75% needed. I remember ESPN having a panel of HOF voters and one of them said that Piazza, because of the steroid rumors, “did not meet the high standard of integrity I have for the Hall of Fame”. Before you can have a high standard of integrity, you need a high standard of evidence. Finally, in 2016, Mike got 83% of the vote and will be indicted into the Hall of Fame this summer. Jeff Bagwell got 41.7% of the vote in 2011, 56% in 2012, 59.6% in 2013, 54.3% in 2014, 55.7% in 2015 but jumped up to 71.6% in 2016. The voters may be in a forgiving mode or maybe they realize that they might have done these players an injustice. Piazza and Bagwell per 162 games: MP .308BA 180H 64W 94S 29D 1T 36HR 2SB 113RBI 89RS 385 bases, 166 runs JB .297BA 174H 106W 117S 37D 2T 34HR 15SB 115RBI 114RS 438 bases 195 runs I love Mike but Jeff Bagwell was a better player who retired earlier and he should have gone into the Hall of Fame first. [/QUOTE]

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